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Okay my buddy seems to think that since the new Codex: Eldar has come out that the Eldar are one of the hardest armies to play. He also thinks that their weapons suck as well. I keep telling him that, from what i can tell, they are doing pretty well for themselves.
do you guys think they are as weak as he thinks? please give reasons why they are or aren't. nothing like 'yes they are' or 'no their not'
I disgaree on a large scale. Im starting to play eldar and he will only thinkt hat because he maybe plays 500pt games, in which eldar are very underhanded.
We have warp spiders, pie plate of doom, dark reapers with good damage and 48" range, we have tank busting fire dragons, bladestorm, autarch's, the avatar, eldrad (killed my 1000 point chaos army, dunno how but he did) and tons more, just play them right and you have a very formidable force that is easy to use.
Chaos Scores:
Wins:7/Draws: 2/Losses: 3
Tau Scores:
Wins:5/Draws: 1/Losses: 0
thats what i told him but he still seems to think otherwise.
Indestructi-tanks, Banshees, HARLEQUINS, and the rest, eldar arent weak at all, is he an SM player? Most SM players i know seem to think everything outside the 3+ save and T4 bracket sucks.
Realize that his tactics may not match well with the Eldar's overall design. Eldar has always been a touch and go army - I played them almost exclusively in 2nd edition, and it was not an easy army to win with unless you have the right tactics. Your tactics have to match their strengths... if your friend is unhappy with them and how they perform, perhaps some new tactics or even trying out a different army is in order.
Find out what he thinks is non-competitive about them. Would he rather they stand and deliver firepower, relying on armor saves? Would he prefer they were more shooty? More assaulty? More jumpy? Knowing what he feels are the weaknesses, we can be more help to him in finding the strengths.
"Alright Kiff, let's show them what a bloated, runaway defense budget can do!" - Zapp Brannigan
#6
IMHO, the new Eldar codex is the best codex out right now. It has tremendous variety, lots of competitive choices, and for the power gamer in all of us, it has armies that can use 3x Falcons. Even without the 3x Falcons I've seen some pretty competitive Eldar lists.
Honestly, I can't think of a single unit in the army list that I'd avoid at all costs. In almost every case there is some way to make the unit useful. I *really* like the 4th edition Eldar codex. I wish every codex allowed for as many competitive choices as this one.
Every man I meet is in some way my superior.
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
"lost their touch" implies they got nerfed in some way :/ which units got nerfed compared to the previous dex then? I know WLords did, but that was going to happen one way or another, and they still rule.
Snake
i believe the starcannon got nerfed as well. i think there are a few others to but i cant remember OTTOMH.
Dark Angel - he was exclusively an Eldar player. he recently bought a Space Wolves army. I think that has swayed him to far into the realm of illogical thought.
Let him try out your tranid for a round - that should push him back into normality - especially in low points with basic gaunts against sniper eldar-
Vypers were heavily nerfed. Starcannons not being as strong effected them, and they lost crystal targetting matrix.
Honestly other than vypers though it is hard to think of things that got weaker.
no more black guardians, and unless you are going full Saim-Hann, I feel vypers are next to useless. The biggest problem in the new codex is deciding what you going to squeeze into 3 heavy slots from the 5 very cool heavy options (+ support battery, which I don't rate so much - it is reasonable, but not so good as the rest).
But being eldar has never been so good.
Proudly presenting:
Land Raider Randomus (a.k.a Drunkum Admechus)
‘A Chaos Warrior is never late, Neither is he early. He arrives whenever he bloody well likes.’
:BadBadger: - BL fan fiction forums.
Eldar are leaning more towards 'too good' then 'too weak'.
You merely have to know what you are doing and build a well balanced list.
Its easy to make bad lists and play poor with eldar due to combos of troops not working, though with a little knowledge and some forth thought they are down right devastating.
Its easy to make bad lists and play poor with eldar due to combos of troops not working, though with a little knowledge and some forth thought they are down right devastating.
This is a very good point. I see a lot of eldar lists that try to take one of every bloody unit in the codex,and as a result have to take such small squads that none of them are effective at what they need to do. If you give each unit some thought and ask yourself what its job is and how well it can do it in its current set-up,the army list can easily become pretty formidable.
yep. as a general rule good eldar lists only use half the units in the codex.
As a rule (mostly for 500pts) we're forced to only use halfour incredible lack of ____'s in 500-750pt games is amazing, it's either AV or anti-infantry. But for 1000+'s we can start to expand a bit, use more pie plates of doom and maybe the odd phoenix lord, maybe even some spiders or FD's in a falcon. Whichever way you look at a good list from 1k+ points you can't help but smile that 'fuck yeah!' smile, knowing that hardly anything can stand in it's way.
But if you can pester your friend to make/give us a previous Eldar list then wait a day or two we can have it ready for combat quickly and it will be as effective as we (Especially W0lf and macbrown (and the others
Last edited by Avatar 720; 10th Sep 07 at 1:51 PM. Reason: missing + :)
see the issue here is that the game is balanced for 1.5-2k.As a rule (mostly for 500pts)
500 pts allows for far more cheese min/maxing then a eldar list can possible cater for.
Yes, with 500pts the likes of SM and CSM (bit of experience here
But Eldar are great all in all, that's why im alternating between them and chaos, I don't have the chaos dex yet so im using eldar for the moment and will be doing so until I get and get used to the new chaos dex. But if I can perform well with Eldar then I mgith stick with them a bit longer.
okay here is what he usually takes. P.S. they are in no particular order i dont have the codex on hand so im going OTTOMH
Avatar
Farseer w/ 3-4 Warlocks - Farseer usually has Doom and Mind War
Dire Avengers-around 8-10 (exarch and base wargear)
Guardians-around 10 (regular catapult Guardians)
Harlequins-8 i believe (shadowseer, DJ, TM and 5 harlies, all have kisses)
Striking Scorpions-around 8-10 (Exarch, all base wargear)
Rangers-3 or 4 pathfinders <---i haaaaaaate
Guardian Jetbikes- i think like 6 or 8 (base wargear)
1 Wraithlord (base wargear plus a Bright Lance and a Wraithsword)
1 Falcon Grav (Base wargear plus Starcannon and a few vehicle upgrades i.e. 2 maybe 3 at max)
the Exarchs usually have some upgrades i just dont recall. And they will usually have 1 if not both of their powers.
EDIT-he just bought a box of Fire Dragons, Warp Spiders, and Swooping Hawks
Last edited by spartan116; 10th Sep 07 at 3:13 PM.
Avatar
Farseer w/ 2-4 Warlocks
Farseer usually has Doom and Mind War
Dire Avengers-around 8-10
Guardians-around 10
Harlequins-8 i believe (shadowseer, DJ, TM and 5 harlies)
Striking Scorpions-around 8-10
Rangers-3 or 4 pathfinders <---i haaaaaaate
Guardian Jetbikes- i think like 6 or 8
1 Wraithlord
1 Falcon Grav
Well,this helps to explain things a little bit. This list has basically mixed and matched random units,with the army having no overall theme to speak of.
By the way,you need at least 5 rangers/pathfinders to make a legal unit,so if he is indeed using 3 or 4 he isn't really reading his codex.
3 HQs anyone?
Sorry bout that donut. I changed the wording around.
Are you serious macbrown? Well som-beytch. When i played him at like 750 he brought 3 rangers. kinda makes me wonder now.....
EDIT-by the way i added a few units i forgot he just purchased, but hasnt used yet.
also he can't have two warlocks, it is 3+.
Each farseer needs 1+ powers. (and it is best to stick to one with a single power at 500/750)
Are the guardians storm guadians (pistol and CCW) or defender (catapult + 2 models w/ support weapon?)
As listed that is comfortably over 1000 points.
As said he he has no theme, plan strategy or coherance with the army. He needs to go back to basics, and see what he plans to do what, and really look to see how effective each unit is going to be.
That list is about as bad as it can get.
sorry again. Im trying to remember this stuff OTTOMH lol. iI fixed the warlocks tho. I believe he always brought three now that i think about it.
after reading your post moleytov i will try to remember and go back and put what he uses.
EDIT-he just bought a box of Fire Dragons, Warp Spiders, and Swooping Hawks
Alright,that about sums up this character to me. He has no idea what he's doing,he's just buying one of every wankin unit in the codex trying to find one that will win him games.
I would suggest to this person to either come to the forums himself to post his army list and get suggestions,or to try a different army altogether. Eldar require some forethought and finesse (whodathunkit?) to play properly, and he doesn't seem to be devoting much to either.
By the way,I'm sorry if I sound a little harsh,especially when talking about someone I clearly have never met before. Call it tough love,maybe.
Now you see, if he stuck those fire dragons in a falcon, and two squads of avengers in waveserpents and a suitable farseer on a jetbike with those spiders/hawks, he could be onto the beginning of something. But if he just intend to add those to his army... well the infinity circuit on his craftworld is just gonna get fuller.he just bought a box of Fire Dragons, Warp Spiders, and Swooping Hawks
Actually he may be my friend but i agree with you macbrown. I would have him join but hes hard headed and will most likely call you all stupid geeks who need to get laid-his solution to all problems lol. He doesn't take kindly to someone telling him how to do things. Hell he said the Reaper Launcher is an 'okay' weapon. I said your fuggin nuts. A S- AP- Heavy- is nice....really nice actually. (i left out the stats but i think the hardcore Eldar players will know what i'm talkin' bout' ;P.
Well if he cant take advice theres really not much you can do. Eldar perform consistantly well in tournaments, they are a proven effective army and are generally regarded as solid. If he's just going to throw random crap down on the table though, he's going to keep losing. He should have played marines. (he'd probably still lose a fair bit, but its a bit harder to stuff up so colossally)
(i left out the stats but i think the hardcore Eldar players will know what i'm talkin' bout' ;P.
I was worried when I saw that statline coming up. Good to know that not everyone is ignorant of forum rules. Ap0k has had to deal with enough lately.
I actually know the kind of guy you're talking about,so I guess I understand. If there are any other good Eldar players you know,maybe you could have a match with them while your stubborn friend here watches. Maybe seeing a decently planned out list in action will help him to start thinking about what he could do differently.
actually from what he says he used to win a lot back in the day with them. This was before the new Codex tho'. But now every time i play him with nids it almost always ends up me killing everything but the damn Falcon and his avatar. And i also didnt have a perfected list yet either.
He is like the only Eldar player within like 150 miles of here. And thats no joke lol.
He is like the only Eldar player within like 150 miles of here. And thats no joke lol.
Great. Well, I'm honestly not sure what to say then. I might have to agree with Shiz here and say that he should just pack up his Eldar. If he refuses to listen to advice and can't adjust to the new codex, then maybe it's time for him to move on.
If they're killing everything but the falcon and avatar there's something wrong. The Avatar obviously isn't in combat and the falcon obviously isn't carrying troops. Tell him the falcon is a transport not a combat vehicle/otherwise, it's a transport that has moderatley better firepower than other stuff. Try laying a single one of every model he owns on a table and telling him clearly and slowly things like 'these go in the falcon, yes it's your favourite bird of prey which is this' ect.
But really if he can't even be arsed spending time on this theres no hope.
lol that would warrant an evil look and a 'i have been playing Eldar for years and i know how to play them.' speechTry laying a single one of every model he owns on a table and telling him clearly and slowly
Between you and I and every who reads this board, I think your friend basically got used to the old Eldar Codex. That's it. It was out for a long time and everyone knew the power combos in it. Now that some of the old power combos have been nerfed, he simply needs to learn the newer codex. Now, if he has that "manly man" complex refuses to admit he needs to learn to walk all over again there's not much you or anyone else can do. Eldar are still abusive but if he wants to give up his flying Land Raiders and everything else to play another army, that's what he should do. Just one question for him - ask him if he would have played the list he plays now in the old codex. No? Why not? Including units just because they're new is fun, but not necessarily effective.
lol that would warrant an evil look and a 'i have been playing Eldar for years and i know how to play them.' speech
No offense to him,but he USED to know how to play them. A new codex is out,and if he can't adapt his army to fit it then he's just going to keep losing game after game.
lol i dont care if he loses. More wins for me
More Eldar biomass for the bugs! Yum!
I took a peak at the Eldar codex anbd thought the Psychic powers were downright sick. Maybe not to bugs, but to marines. I cant believe your friend doesnt have a fire prism. Not an Eldar player but theyre pretty sick from what I see from the codex and can't believe he thinks theyre underpowered.
my friends is nurgle mine is Khorne and his is nurgle
More like why doesn't he have 3? And that list is definitely all over the place. Tell him to get a coherent list, one that has a Strategy. Tell him to just come and read all of these posts about how, as of right now, useless his Eldar list is.I cant believe your friend doesnt have a fire prism.
We're a dying race as it is, we don't need any more wasted deaths...
lol i tried to get him to come here a few times but he wouldn't do it. He is to hard headed and stubborn to let someone else tell him that he is 'gasp' wrong lol. Hes a power gamer to the max. If he isn't winning the army is broken or 'that unit is bullshit.' take this for example: i killed his Farseer and 3 Warlocks with my Dakkarant in one volley. And so now he refers to it as 'broken gun' lol. But like i tell him, the guns is powerfull yes, but its like one of what, 4 guns nids have that are really powerful. I dunno.
By the way. Im going to try to see if he will let me play his Eldar against his Space Wolves. I will read some tacticas and post a list and you guys can look it over? -im calling you out macbrown
#39
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@Spartan: Please eliminate the LOL and OTTOMH. Net-speak needs to be kept to a minimum of none. Thank you.
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Sounds to me like your friend, as several of our esteemed members have already pointed out, simply cannot fathom the changes to the Eldar list. As an Eldar player, I was very disappointed in the new codex when it first came out in some areas, (loss of Alaitoc, lost of disruption table, bump in min ranger unit size, etc). As a vocal opponent to the min/max abuse of Starcannons in Eldar forces, I had NONE so that particular nerf, (I don't consider it a nerf, but a needed to be done), didn't phase me in the slightest.
However, after careful review it turned out that everything I had been doing for so long, (Dire Avengers, Fire Prisms & Warp Spiders specifically), became totally buff. Additionally, the revisions allowed me to still field Pathfinders, (albeit not in the same volume as before), AND a healthy mix of Aspect warriors. It was always either or. While my realy play time and model base is firmly rooted with the Imperium, I dare say based on what I see in the codex, what I've taken to playing and what the more talented Eldar players around me have taken to playing that the new Eldar codex is vastly superior to the previous edition, even with the loss of Craftworlds.
Your pal needs to grow up and man up.
Will do.
I think he needs to read your quote Brother Armand. He was really mad that they got rid of the Craftworlds. He used the Ulthwe and their Black Gaurdians. Maybe if i play him he will see the light and stop complaining...or he will say that i got lucky.
Oh yeah. A couple of you guys referred to the pie plate of doom like it was an actual unit. What the heck are you guys talking about?
PPoD? (hehe, just messing Bro A.) Pie Plate of Doom is the name given to the pie plate the fire prism uses when it fires. It describes what the shot does in a few words, thus the name Pie Plate of Doom.
aaahhh i see. thanks for the clarity Avatar. Hopefully i will be able to show him that the Eldar do not suck. As much as i reaaaaaaaly dont want toi will do it to keep him from nagging.
By the way. Im going to try to see if he will let me play his Eldar against his Space Wolves. I will read some tacticas and post a list and you guys can look it over?
This could work,as long as he's not so stubborn that he won't even let you try. If you post up a list, I'm sure we could help you out.
He is probably not THAT stubborn, but if you beat him he will just try everything, he won't accept the fact that eldar rule, wouldn't even accept it if it danced naked it front of him screaming his praises to the heavens...
yeah i dont think hes that stubborn either, but hey ive been wrong before
ok really now...
this thread is so pointless.
As mech eldar are one of the top three most powerful tourny builds i think the thread title is kinda void.
Just because one player cant win using outdated tactics and a crap list at 500pts does not justify a race to be bad.
its not really that void to me. I am new to the game and dont have much experience with older versions of the Eldar. thats why i asked if they were hit as hard as im hearing.
eldar were hit in a few ways but also buffed in a few others.
Eldar are easily one of the top 5 races atm.
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