[Fact] OF reached gold status

[Unicous]

By not buying the game, I am not doing any damage to THQ, the damage will be felt by Relic. Who without sales; won't get the go ahead to develop more titles like another chapter of Company of Heroes or future patches. Why patch a game that doesn't sell well?

Akranadas is right. publishers don't care about their developers, they want their sales figures right in order to appease the shareholders. it's all about the money, well it always was, but in the beginning there was some fun involved, cause video games was a niche market, now it has a global market.

maybe you know the gothic series, it was made by a german developer team. the first game in the series was published by a relatively small publisher, after its relatively huge success in germany, they were signed by a major publisher and the problems began. (well to be honest there were some bugs but those were solved soon) the second was not ready to be released, jowood the publisher released it anyway. the bugs wasn't that much a pain in the ass, but it made playing a little uneasy at some stages in the game.
with the third game in row, piranha bytes the developer maybe loaded a bit too much on his shoulders, trying to convince the fans critics and the market. the release was postponed numerous times, and when the game finally was released it was not playable. after the release the developer said, they woul've need at least some more month for bugfixing but the publisher wouldn't let them. they were forced to release it because they wanted it released before the fiscal quarter ended. after they found out that they made a not so great decision they wanted it fixed. problem: it could't be fixed in a matter of time, and soon after the developer was fired, they recruited some devoted and able fans to do some fixes that resulted in so called community patches solving many problems on the surface, making it at least playable, but the problem remains, it is an unfinished game that can't be finished. the publisher found another idiot to develop a sequel and excluded the original developers from their own brain child because they have the rights on the game, theoretically an addon and one sequel.
an addon that was supposed to address the problem of the main game was stalled after they were fired.

[Arinax]

If relic would at least listen to the comunity... like jowood does... there are so many nobrainer things... simpliest things like wrong damagetables.. anyone could fix it and send it to relic for being a comunity patch...same goes with DC there were/are literally hundreds of bugs which are known and were not fixed for more than 6 months... i mean is that good support ? i want a support NOW when i gave the company my money i dont want to rely on the answer"maybe you get it...." and in the end you get the statement"it was to complicated" will i get my money back? NO

I, as a costumer gets betrayed by companies like RELIC and THQ... relic because they are unable to patch(maybe thats the reason because its not so popular in e sport/non existent) and THQ because they just think about the money and not the costumer they should feel responsible for...

[Noir]

They were though with Qduffy, a lot of the changes made here were suggested by HERO after all.

[Unicous]

that's not a good idea considering it is a multiplayer game and humans tend to bring their own desires to play, and that would not be good for balancing. relic is a team they discuss the changes, they do not implement them without cosidering the pros and cons.

and jowood found a simple and cost efficient way to strip off the responsibility and give it to the community that happily bit into the bait like a dumb fish.

[Akranadas]

CoH isn't an Esport because the Publishes have to pay to have their games in there.

[Noir]

Well I don't know, HEROs a good guy, he's considered respectable by the community, and his solutions tend to err on the working side. You know the G-43 price increase and the later increase of PE starting mun to 50? Those were his hunches and ideas IIRC and they worked out quite well.

Besides, after 1.6 the balance team was listening to him at least partially anyway, it's not a great change from the status quo.

[Boomstar]

I'm sorry but your beta splash screen clearly states november as your release time frame. To say you were shooting for a end of summer release for a LONG time is obviously a big load of crap. This is a publisher decision through and through, so I can't completely fault relic for the mess that OF is going to be. But what your giving people is yet again another rushed product that will be fixed very very slowly with patch's that could've been fixed as little as 2 months of more development time.

Frankly I'm fed up with this, and I will NOT be buying this game until its dirt cheap... if it at all.

[Methuselath]

I, as a costumer gets betrayed by companies like RELIC and THQ... relic because they are unable to patch(maybe thats the reason because its not so popular in e sport/non existent) and THQ because they just think about the money and not the costumer they should feel responsible for...

Oh come now, unable to patch? They patched the game multiple times, considering it was only released last year, so "unable" seems a bit of an overdramatization.

Secondly, CoH not in E-sport is due to various points. Not being able to have mirror matches, the combat system having some luck-based variables and the gameplay concept being too different than mainstream RTSes. There's also the money game, but I'd rather not delve into that.

Sheesh, some of you have to look up the difference between unplayable and imbalanced. Crashing regularly for almost all the user everytime is unplayable. One side overpowering the other is imbalanced.

[Noir]

'm sorry but your beta splash screen clearly states november as your release time frame. To say you were shooting for a end of summer release for a LONG time is obviously a big load of crap.

I do agree, this gold period stinks to high heaven and it reeks of publisher decision. The time tables were all wrong: If this game was going to be released on the 24th, why did the closed and open betas moved up so late compared to the original CoH beta? Why are we going gold after a little less than two weeks of open beta when we were allowed about a month in the past? Why are the developers working on a Day Zero patch when in the past they took a vacation between now and release?

The idea that THQ pushed for this over Relic's objection is so obvious it might as well smack you in the head. Frankly I have no idea what THQ is thinking with this: Why move the date so close to the WiC release?

[BlackLabel]

If relic would at least listen to the comunity... like jowood does...

Iam german and i worked in the german games industry and i can asure you that "Jowood" gives a fuck about the community. ( they where better in the past )

The next thing you say is:

I, as a costumer gets betrayed by companies like RELIC and THQ... relic because they are unable to patch(maybe thats the reason because its not so popular in e sport/non existent) and THQ because they just think about the money and not the costumer they should feel responsible for...

So take Jowood as an example, those guys basicly rip off the customer with Gothic III. Pyranja Bytes is a small developer and now they are unable to make more games under the "Gothic" franchise...who betrayed who? Jowood did the worst job ever with rushing out gothic III and smack over the developer on the rebound.

and jowood found a simple and cost efficient way to strip off the responsibility and give it to the community that happily bit into the bait like a dumb fish.

exactly.

[chuckles22]

Id hate mirror matches any way... and isnt there luck in almost any rts? luck on positioning when a battle starts (unless your being defencive most of theses things apply)... there has to be some aspect of luck because something never works 100% there are flukes more often then not...

[Unicous]

company of heroes is in my opinion one of the most complex rts til this very day. not one, i say not one rts reached this high variety of strategies. if im wrong name one and substantiate that claim.

because of this variety there are a lot of bugs exploits etc. that can and will be solve, i have confidence in relic, because all the games they produced thus far, homeworld, dawn of war and company of heroes were great games with some glitches, but none so severe to make the game unplayable.

and you know what, im up to some downtime cause i know it is/going to be a great game, even though the publisher is willing to make a mistake in order to survive the next shareholder's meeting.

edit: adding to this i almost laughed my ass off as i experienced in the demo for c&c 3 that an almost complete different developer team retains that old harvester bug.

[Noir]

On the other hand you have to consider partially the reason why you're running into bugs in this situation is of factors beyond developer control but within the realms of humanity enough to know that it really shouldn't have happened.

The only good thing besides the vigorous attention(you can't call 4 patches in 4 days not a decently moving patching schedule) paid to the community during the open beta you can say about this is that it wasn't as bad as the HW2 dev cycle, that much we have to be thankful for.

In any case, THQ is being really odd here. They gave Supcom a beta that was several months long, but somehow OF isn't worthy of one a month long? Could it be that it's because of the fact that it's an expansion pack? I do commend them for having a beta for an expansion pack, but cutting it short like this is just wierd.

[android82nl]

First, lets congratulate relic on the gold status of opposing fronts.

Second,
Remember the beta is still the beta and not the final product.
Let's just wait for the final product before making any statements about balance or connection problems.

[Wargrim]

It would not be the first time THQ forces a developer to rush out an "unfinished" product that does not have all the features that were originally planned in it and that needs day 0 patching. Stalker anyone?

[Noir]

Stalker is a special case, that was a textbook case of both reaching for unattainable goals and feature creep if I've got my sources right. I won't blame THQ for trying to push along a product that was in the making for like 7 years and still didn't look like it was going to be done anytime soon. I do blame them for trying to push a product that was in development for like a year and a half at the very most and of all the stupid things to push it to less than a week after the WiC release. That just makes no sense to me, even October would have been a better idea.

[Mordakii]

I agree the splash screen is the give away in all this, you dont have to be sherlock holmes to work it out. Dont try and play us for fools.

As already stated, unlike Uber (for whom I have great respect) I wont be buying on day one, or even month one. I suggest if they want to rush us a game, we dont let them. Buy the game in November (at a knock down price), it might be ready then.

Loss of sales is the only way to teach greedy publishers what they are doing is wrong!

(It would be good if RelicNews led a boycot, but I think the chances of that happening are slim at best. It may however make it into the e-press and that would certainly hurt sales and may affect changes)

[Cobra5]

I, for one, will buy this game when it comes out (If I have the money... damn books were expensive this year.) Regardless of when it comes.

Firstly, as stated, boycotting it will not send a message to THQ. Well, it will, but it will send the message "CoH isn't selling well, we should focus our effots elsewhere", not "Oops, we made a mistake, we didn't listen to the community, Woe on us!!"

Second, "boycotts" never work, don't ever happen, and you also have to remember that the online community is actually only a very small fraction of total sales.

And third, its coming early... the games connections seem to be working better for me overall, and the game won't release any worse off then vCoH did, if not better.

[edit]I mean yeah, its a strange decision, who knows why they decided, I mean, the WiC is a good point... but it doesn't effect me personally.

[DatonKallandor]

As already stated, unlike Uber (for whom I have great respect) I wont be buying on day one, or even month one. I suggest if they want to rush us a game, we dont let them. Buy the game in November (at a knock down price), it might be ready then.

Loss of sales is the only way to teach greedy publishers what they are doing is wrong!

As if anyone would even notice you not buying the game. Online players, and by extension, people who go on forums are a minority of the buyers. You might make enough money for one or two patches. And you are getting more than that, for free. Frankly, I'd appreciate it if Relic simply stops patching balance and concentrates on creating content.

[tatatank]

i have enjoyed OF immensely and will purchase it. connection issues are pretty much gone, i dont crash very often. The most important part is i have fun again.

[Relic]

Thanks to everyone for stating your opinions. I know it is a touchy topic that a lot of people are passionate about. From where I sit I can see a LOT of people working hard on making the game amazing still... we're still patching the beta and we're still working on a good 0 day patch for all of you. As you can see with the patches that are coming in frequently, the game is improving and getting much much better. In the meantime, I am still compiling your feedback and bringing them to the devs to incorporate into the patches.

[Noir]

Thanks for the feedback Buggo.

[Turican]

balance ok...but i still have "cant connect to all players" and game is gold....wont buy

[Mordakii]

So you dont think a boycot, especially if endorsed by one or all of the major fansites, wouldnt make it to the press? And that wouldn't affect sales?

CoH was a big hit due to word of mouth, the opposite can also apply.

[Older-OMO]

They gave Supcom a beta that was several months long, but somehow OF isn't worthy of one a month long? Could it be that it's because of the fact that it's an expansion pack? I do commend them for having a beta for an expansion pack, but cutting it short like this is just wierd.

With a 0 day patch, isn't the time from the start of the open beta about 1 month???

[norfolknclue]

Can't deny they're stacking the patches out. There's another one since I played 2 days ago. Fair play. I still reckon it was a management decision from the publishers. Those of us unlucky enough to work in offices will know how silly some management decisions can be! :P

[CroatNotBorat]

I'm worried about CoH. I just recently got it (barely played 30 ranked games!), and now I won't get to play CoH as it is anymore. I haven't played OF beta, and the full game doesn't interest me at the moment... But if I want to play online, I'll still get the "merge" patch, which AFAIK changes a lot of things in CoH, and I will probably have to face two new armies. That won't be the game I bought to play. I might like it better, I might like it worse - I don't know. The point is, we are all getting some patch changes, whether we intend to buy OF or not. That might be a problem. I suppose a de-patch mod will be released, and a lot of people could switch to unranked...

[Noir]

With a 0 day patch, isn't the time from the start of the open beta about 1 month???

It's more like 3 weeks here. I believe the original CoH open beta to gold(because that was when the team went on vacation) period was about a month.

[scoiatollo]

@Scooter: just ignore Daton, if anyone is a Relicfanboy out of the book, it's 100% him...

Boycotting products is the only way how costumers can stand up for their rights! This may harm Relic as well, but who cares? This whole industry is leading into a direction I don't like. Companies don't care about their costumers and dev teams seem not to care for their products anymore. That's something that needs to stop right now!

I know there won't be the perfect RTS out of the box and I wouldn't care if there are some flaws, but I am not willing to buy a game that is known to be imba out of the box! If it's known it shouldn't be released! I appreciate the open beta as a step into the right direction, but I can't accept to be treated like an idiot!

@Buggo: I'd really wish to see you more frequently in the DoW section...

[Faceless]

Reposted from a closed side thread:

Well, on the one hand, I can't complain on getting my hands on it faster. Being on a limited budget, that's my new game ration for the next 2 months or so. Everything I read says the online balance is crap, but, you know what? Relic is still pursuing the beta to the last minute, and will have a 0 day patch. As soon as corsix's mod tools also work with it, the community will jump all over the additional features and content, and may well get it tweaked better than Relic will. So, it will be worth it, probably sooner rather than later. COH itself took some time to approach enough balance for everyone to be happy, and people still gripe about some things. The only thing to worry about is crashes, and I don't see crash reports for the beta.

Please don't gripe at Relic for things THQ pulls. I don't think Relic had any real choice in the matter. Gripe at THQ. Thank you.

[Busby]

Companies don't care about their costumers and dev teams seem not to care for their products anymore. That's something that needs to stop right now!

Nah, its more of publishers thinking there profits will drop and having a panic attack. They then force the developer to push out the game they are no means ready. Ubisoft has a bad tendency to do this, heck, Silent Hunter IV was pushed out bug ridden and missing features, it was even missing some major tools!

[chandlerr_360]

Wow, Relic must really, really, REALLY be desperate for some money real quick...the Closed Beta just came out barely a month ago, and the Open one just started 2 weeks ago...it might as well be considered a demo!

Connectivity is still shit (at least Auto was fixed somewhat), Balance is horrendous, and there are a TON of games coming out before the Holiday that people are going to want to buy rather than this. I am a Xbox 360 owner as well as a PC owner, and I am planning on getting World In Conflict, Halo 3 , Call of Duty 4, and Mass Effect before Christmas, as WELL as this game...but as it is, this game is definitely on the bottom of my list. Might just wait until December until all of the patches out and save my money.

[DatonKallandor]

@Scooter: just ignore Daton, if anyone is a Relicfanboy out of the book, it's 100% him...

If you prefer putting your hands over your ears and singing "la la la I have a monetary impact!" you can do that. Or you can accept the facts. You don't matter in the grand scheme of things.

[Older-OMO]

It's more like 3 weeks here. I believe the original CoH open beta to gold(because that was when the team went on vacation) period was about a month.

Not trying to be a total pain, but if the open beta started on August 29th and the game launches around September 25th (according to the rumors). That's basically 4 weeks on a calendar. If the original CoH had 4 weeks from open beta to gold, but they didn't have a major 0 day patch (implying that they took a break), than it seems like the the same time frame to me.

I would assume there would have been more time needed to test CoH anyway since they were working on a new graphics engine, gameplay and balance considerations.

If OF is an enhancement (granted pretty significant) to the existing code base, why is it such a stretch to assume they have done adequate testing and fixing for the Gold image? Relic has said they are taking feedback, fixing bugs, tweaking balance and continuing to test until GA. Most of the bugs and issues seem like tweaks to net code and balance fixes. We are seeing improvements almost on a daily basis. I am optimistic it will be a solid release when combined with the 0 day patch.

[Burns]

Heh, no need to get worked up. I wonder if there'll be a demo anytime soon, though I don't think i can take any more versions of CoH on my PC.

[TankHunter678]

Here is an image, that sums up the reasons why I think people will not be buying OF in the numbers THQ hopes, out of all those who have played online.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b1...relic00005.jpg

Its a big image which is why I leave it as a link, but I think OF will need a title change. I want THQ to take a gooood look at this image, and then at what they had made CoH into, then back at this image.

I think we have a new Command and Conqure game outside of EA's control.

[Muad'Dib]

^^
Its like a German mob hit! "Ulrich ze noze zends hiz regardz" Ratatatata......

[0mar]

lol TankHunter678, that shit is pretty much how every game degenerates into as PE. Giant blob of infantry running around, headshotting shit, with no regard to micro or position or anything.

I really don't like the direction OF took and I have zero faith in Relic to provide good support. They support their games, yes, but their support is strictly par. Remember all the bugs that accompanied each patch in CoH? What have they done to ensure that doesn't happen in OF? I don't think they changed anything, judging by the Closed Beta patches (which had even more bugs). Finally, their balance is completely bonkers. They listen to too many people and don't have the cojones to change the game for the better. It seems like they try to please every type of player from the 3v3/4v4 infantry only to the 1v1 competitive players and end up pleasing no one.

OF is a fucked up mess right now. There are so many inconsistencies, so many imbalances and so many downright bugged/detrimental "features" that the game is basically the biggest abortion in 2007. So many changes were made in OF that didn't need changing and so many needed changes from vanilla weren't implemented in OF. For instance, special abilities being used from buildings was a retarded decision. It'd be fine if Axis units had comparable special abilities, but they don't. It's basically another unneeded Allied buff. On the other hand, I can't think of very many players who like the infantry-crush abilities of tanks, but that hasn't changed one bit in OF and probably is a great deal worse thanks to the worsened AI. That's just one example of the screwed up policies at work at Relic. There are a bunch of other ones that just won't get looked at. Screwed up doctrines, abilities, units and maps, the list goes on. Especially maps. The new maps introduced in beta are hardly played. I only get games on Angoville in 1v1. Hardly anyone plays the new 1v1 map and for good reason, it sucks and bad. However, apparently, it was the most balanced map that Relic had completed. I hate to see what there is in store for OF. Judging by Relic's recent history in map making (Beaux, Scheldt, Etavaux, Seine River Heights), I'd say the outlook is grim.

Also, remember, half the features that were promised in vanilla were promised in OF and now are being promised in a post-release patch. Arranged Teams went from coming in the first or second content patch for CoH to being pushed back to OF to being pushed back to post-release OF. Same with observer mode and other features necessary for an online service in this day and age.

[TankHunter678]

Omar, if Tanks and Vehicles could crush infantry, I would be happy. It makes fighting the PE easier
since there will be a great strong anti-blob mechanic that rivals its strength. If I were to theorycraft then I would say with 100% certainty that OF will kill the CoH franchise just like WA, and DC, did to the DoW franchise.

[ÜberJumper]

By not buying the game, I am not doing any damage to THQ, the damage will be felt by Relic. Who without sales; won't get the go ahead to develop more titles like another chapter of Company of Heroes or future patches. Why patch a game that doesn't sell well?

I agree, and I still think that the seeming to move forward of the Release date is something that needs to be addressed.

However, you could just as easily come back and say "Why buy a game for a feature that doesn't work?" (Multiplayer)

There's bigger driving factors to pushing this out the door early, and I hope that I can help get them explained to everyone.

[0mar]

lol, yea, at this point, I wouldn't mind something completely bonkers just to combat PG spam.

In vanilla CoH, tanks running over infantry was a huge complaint, almost no one likes that feature.

[TankHunter678]

Even though in reality tanks can run over people, also making tanks run over people would have fixed quite a large chunk of the pathing issues.

[DatonKallandor]

Also, remember, half the features that were promised in vanilla were promised in OF and now are being promised in a post-release patch. Arranged Teams went from coming in the first or second content patch for CoH to being pushed back to OF to being pushed back to post-release OF. Same with observer mode and other features necessary for an online service in this day and age.

Wow, rarely do I see a hypocrite as big as you Omar. First you whine about "broken features" then you complain that a feature that isn't done isn't included anyway. Talk about no consistency.

[0mar]

huh? AT was supposed to come out in vanilla CoH. Then it was promised as a post-release patch. Then it was promised in OF. Now it's promised as a post-release patch in OF.

How's that make me a hypocrit? Broken features and promised features are two different things.

TankHunter, in reality, it's very difficult to run over infantry with tanks. They simply don't have the manevuarability to run over infantrymen. It's quite difficult to turn a tank quick enough to run over infantry.

[Nerdinheimer]

In vanilla CoH, tanks running over infantry was a huge complaint, almost no one likes that feature.

I hate it with all my soul. The M10 spam/run over panzershrek infantry attack is just the absolute worst thing in the game. It's also a very common tactic. LOL. How long have people been complaining about that for...?

I would be so happy if they fixed that.

[Timeless]

Because CoH was so damn good (apparently by accident), I've put up with a lot of ignored issues, useless units, lack of multiplayer options - like obs mode, AT, etc. But with OF, the design of this expansion is totally screwed. IMO, it's simply not a good game. Had vCoh played like OF does when I beta tested CoH, I would never have purchased it. I feel the design team has done a very poor job. I hate to insult, but it's true. Most likely, I won't be buying OF, and I'll probably stop playing CoH completely once it comes out. Hopefully, I'll get a few games in with vCoH before OF hits the stores.

[Muad'Dib]

TankHunter, in reality, it's very difficult to run over infantry with tanks. They simply don't have the manevuarability to run over infantrymen. It's quite difficult to turn a tank quick enough to run over infantry.

LOL! Remeber that scene in Austin Powers (2?) where Austin Powers ran over that (henchman) guy with a steamroller? I suddenly had a mental picture of it as a tank instead of a steamroller."Stoppppp....stopppp...stopppp....splat!"

But seriously, I'm waiting from any of the mods regarding the interview they'll try to get from Relic that'll shed some light on this whole Gold Member thingy with OF.

IMO, as long as the connection can be 100% fixed by the release date then the earlier the better. It'll be naive of us to expect them to come up with a 100% balance in the game even if they decide to release it in November or December or Next year. This is because this is an RTS game. There can never be a 100% balance in any RTS game because of the number of strategies that can come out from the huge number of players playing it. They can release a hundred patches for OF after its release and still there will be cries of OP, UP, Nerf and Buff. Whats 100% balanced for 1 person might be a total screw of imbalance for another.

Maybe the best figure we could get would be at least an 85-90% balance and at the very least get 95% of the already known bugs fixed before the release. If we can get this... then again I say, the earlier the better! There will be after sales patches for OF even if they decide to release it in November 2008. There is no changing that fact.

So, lets keep an eyes out for that interview and keep our fingers crossed that come release date...whenever it is...that we get a game that actually works...might be bugged but works enough to let us play and enjoy it.

Remember, THQ and Relic are giving us a game...not our first born child.

[Timeless]

It's not about balance, imo. It's about faulty game design. OF simply isn't as fun as CoH. I can deal with imbalance, if the game is fun enough.

[TankHunter678]

I know omar, just that if you cannot get out of the way of the treads then you get squished. simple as that. Its annoying to see this great blob of infantry get run into by a tank and the tank does not crush the ones in the way.

I have seen some of the heavier tanks like the churchill do it in game. Just Americans I think could use the M10 kraut crusher come back till the fight is made fair between the riflemen and the PG.

[Mirage Knight]

Because CoH was so damn good (apparently by accident), I've put up with a lot of ignored issues, useless units, lack of multiplayer options - like obs mode, AT, etc. But with OF, the design of this expansion is totally screwed. IMO, it's simply not a good game. Had vCoh played like OF does when I beta tested CoH, I would never have purchased it. I feel the design team has done a very poor job. I hate to insult, but it's true. Most likely, I won't be buying OF, and I'll probably stop playing CoH completely once it comes out. Hopefully, I'll get a few games in with vCoH before OF hits the stores.

You're forgetting that the modding community is just itching to get their hands on OF so they can tweak the hell out of it. More than likely there will be some really nice mods out there that will do the genre justice