Taking out a defensive position with 25 pounder.

[Question]

I dont know how to take it out. The range is massive, and basically every adjacent sector is free for the brit player. Your capping squad getting shot at? Arty the area. The only warning i seem to get is the first shell landing and wiping out more than 1/4th of my infantry force that im using to stop the capturing squad.

Any artillery unit i try to use against it gets shelled to pieces as well, well before the 25 pounder gets destroyed by my own artillery.

What are the strategies im supposed to be using to take one out?

[SmellyTerror]

1. You can hear the crump-crump-crump sound as it fires. Shells will land a couple of seconds later. Time to run like hell.

2. If you're Wehr, use Nebels. The range on those things is massive, and you can move them after each barrage to avoid counter fire. It's really no contest.

[Lancaster|Sandr]

v1 it


@smelly
since i have my game in other language, can u tell me what nebels are? maybe a screen or whatever

[SmellyTerror]

http://www.coh-stats.com/factions/we...belwerfer.html

This one. Used to suck, is now pretty sweet.

IMO, once Brit gets established, T3 is a must for Wehr. Keep up your infantry to screen and probe, have a Puma or Stug to back up your AT, and use the Nebels to break down the enemy defences.

[Hinkel]

Get some stormtroopers in and shrek it in 3-4 shots.

[Question]

What happens if you dont have stormtroopers or nebels? As PE i just cant find a way to counter it.

Infantry is pointless since the 25 pounder seems to automatically start shelling the moment they enter a enemy sector. How am i supposed to capture an enemy sector? Its like a free registered artillery!

Mortar HT is pointless since it just gets outranged and outshot.

Any tanks you have get killed by piats/buttoned up/mass 17 pounders/their tanks.

I just cant find a counter as luftwaffe PE, the moment a 25 pounder goes up ANYWHERE, all the sectors within range of it are his by default.

[SmellyTerror]

If you are moving it won't hit you. If you have force superiority in the area, just run right in (don't stop for minor targets!) and toast it. As Luft, Falls are excellent. Or if you can just get within sight range, use your air support. Or run a bunch of AT HT in.

Don't blob together - attack spread out, and if possible from multiple directions.

Seriously, though, if the Brits survived the PE early game, and have a 25lbr in a commanding position, *and* they've managed to lock the location down too tight for you to swarm, then they kinda deserve to win. How else do they do it?

[Croner]

If you are PE get some Anti-Tank squads and 1 or 2 Assault Grenadiers supporting them. If he isn't Royal Engineer, all of his defense buildings should be down with 3-5 shots.

[Stokes52]

Just be aware of when the 14pdr is firing. If you know he has one, spread your troops out and CONSTANTLY ask yourself "If I was to get artied, where would it hurt the most?" Then go to that spot and spread your troops out or whatever else it takes to minimize casualties. When capping a point, have one squad cap, and one squad stay back. If you hear arty go off right when you start capping, back off and wait a second or too till either their artillery finishes barraging that sector, or you notice its barraging somewhere else.

Thats how to AVOID arty, but to kill it can be a bit more tricky. Its much easier to do with the Wehrmacht, since they have Nebelwerfers, Flamethrowers, Stormtroopers, and Walking Stukas, but it can be a bit more tricky for a PE player. An effective, yet expensive way is to rush up some infantry, preferably in a Halftrack if he doesn't have a 17pdr up, and flame nade the hell out of the 25pdr. Alternatively you can call in Falls behind his lines and 'faust, 'nade it as well. The best solution, in my opinion, is simply counter-battery fire using Hummels, although this isn't always a viable option since they come late game and only with SE doctrine.

Remember, when fighting Brit, or even American arty for that matter, FIRE, then MOVE! All Axis artillery is mobile, so you have to fire at the enemy, then move! If you don't move your arty after each barrage, you WILL lose the artillery war.

[TNT]

Shreks mutilate emplacements. So do V1s, Marder IIIs, Mortar HTs, and Walking Stukas.

[Sabrewulf]

Also, if you kill the crew, and the Brits counter-attack, crew it right away, with your weakest squad.

You A) force the Brit player to blow up his own 25 pounder, or B) instantly wreck his whole base.

Sabre

[TheDeadlyShoe]

If you can stealthily build a flak in range of the 25 pdr, it can kill it in like 3-4 shots. It's hilarious to do that.

[scales]

As PE vs british defenses: use mortar HT with Inciderary rounds. For the ultimate screw you british player: accompany your Mortar HTs with Munitions Half tracks.

[Question]

I tried to flank a 25 pounder that wasnt very well supported(all the defences for it were facing the right, i was flanking from the left).

I got halfway there with 2 FG42 para squads when a shell landed and wiped out 6 out of 8 members and i was forced to retreat. This happened twice in a row. Seems pretty accurate on moving targets to me. Couldnt call them in any closer because i had to call them in somewhere else and the map didnt have buildings in the right positions for that anyway.

25 pounders tend to be built behind terrain so they cant get sniped by Marders or whatever.

Button up just stops all vehicles from getting anywhere near a 25 pounder unfortunately, the halftrack wont work...unless he doesnt have a bren there of course. Infantry dismounts and some rifle grenades get launched into their midst wiping out over half the force.

Isnt a flak a direct fire weapon that will be blocked by whatever terrain the 25 pounder is behind?


Mortar barraging the 25 pounder doesnt work, getting in range of it without running into supporting units or vickers, etc is hard enough, but barraging it long enough without it firing back and wiping out the mortar HT just doesnt happen. Firing a few mortar rounds and scooting just has no effect.

[scales]

Question
Use the incidary round from the Mortar HT. You only need one to land and it will keep burning the area for some time, which will cause damage to the defenses.

[Question]

Would that kill the men manning the 25 pounder? Even if it does, whats stopping them from running a tommy squad up to re-man it?

[starwolf]

While it might, it prevents sappers from repairing it so if you keep shelling it long enough you'll surely but slowly kill it. Besides what else do Brits have that really puts a thorn into the axis player... nothing.

[TankHunter678]

The men manning the 25lbr will only die when teh emplacement is at ~20% HP, after that any recrew restores it to 50% HP.

[Znuff]

Mortar HT doesnt work on the 25pdr or the Mortar pit, it has a very low damage against them specificly.

[Question]

Incendiary rounds wont work either? So wheres the counter other "Dont let them build 25 pounder with infantry support lol"?

[Rottweiler|Soul]

HT rush with Shrek squads.

[Question]

Button up, shrek squads dismount, rifle grenades, over half of shreck squads gone, piats/17 pounder kill HT, remaining shreck squads hit retreat button.

We covered this on the previous page.

[Sturmtruppen]

chill for VP victory? or flank to the other side, as in behind the 25pder, where his other stuff cant touch you, unless hes setting up defenses outside your base, then gg you lost... and dodge

[Question]

Brits have no problems taking VPs that are within range of a 25 pounder. Any defence you try to mount there simply fails because all your troops get killed by it. Flanking doesnt work against properly supported 25 pounders. What are you going to flank with? Infantry? Killed halfway enroute by the 25 pounder. Armor? Killed by buttoned up+piats/17 pounders/25 pounder. Artillery? 25 pounder more or less wins all artillery duels with artillery overwatch, and PE doesnt have any artillery that can kill a 25 pounder.

[Rottweiler|Soul]

Button up, shrek squads dismount, rifle grenades, over half of shreck squads gone, piats/17 pounder kill HT, remaining shreck squads hit retreat button.

We covered this on the previous page.

The "yes, but..." game is a fun theorycrafting event where the enemy always knows just what you're sending, where you're sending it from, and has the exact combination of counters on hand to crush you.

Besides, nobody said you had to send them all in from the same direction, or that you could only have one of them.

[Question]

Erm, a brit player would have to be stupid not to have troops and emplacements at a 25 pounder to defend it, or to place it so they can only defend from one direction.

So now i have to sucide in 2 or more HTs with multiple shreck squads and if i dont kill the 25 pounder or get into its range in time my entire assault force gets bombarded by shells and wiped out.

[Wedge1126]

Go play as British in the manner you're describing. Every time you lose, save the replay. Watch the replays to see how they beat you and post the results.

[TankHunter678]

Question which race are you using?

[dreddnott]

In this situation at least, Question is describing his difficulties playing as Panzer Elite with Luftwaffe Tactics.

There are lots of ways to defeat the 25pdr, but to pull them off requires some skill and forethought. I'd take Wedge's advice, it's the best way to get ideas from other players.

[Sabrewulf]

Your problem is using FG42 squads to attack an arty piece. They are anti-infantry. They are expensive. They die rapidly.

Multiple Shrek squads would be much, much better. Or the mortar halftrack.

Sabre

[scales]

Question: All your problems can be solved by a marder. By the time you have one the british player will be lucky to even be building a 25 pdr.

[Question]

Go play as British in the manner you're describing. Every time you lose, save the replay. Watch the replays to see how they beat you and post the results.

All that would show is me getting beaten in the early game way before i can get a 25 pounder unless i setup a test game, but that wouldnt be realistic results.

Your problem is using FG42 squads to attack an arty piece. They are anti-infantry. They are expensive. They die rapidly.

Unless PGs have massive resistance against 25 pounder shells, i dont see how there would be a difference as they would get taken out halfway to the 25 pounder, well before they can get in range with the shrecks. The exact same way the paras got taken out. Arent paras supposed to have anti-building incendiaries btw? Mortar HT has been debunked as a counter to the 25 pounder on the first page already.

Question: All your problems can be solved by a marder. By the time you have one the british player will be lucky to even be building a 25 pdr.

That would rely on wiping out a brit player(or close to it) before he can get a 25 pounder. Marder3 cant hit the 25 pounder because its behind terrain, even if its in the open marder3 cant snipe because of emplacements placed infront, marder3 cant hit emplacements defending the 25 pounder because it will get killed by the 25 pounder while its shooting the emplacements(marder3 vs vickers, only got the vickers down to less than half hp before it was killed by the 25 pounder barrage).

So far the only counter seems to be "lol dont let them build it".

[Wildhound]

Actually there have been numerous counters listed that will work for every player bar you. You seem to constantly find yourself so far behind that the British outnumber you three or four to one. I'd say the 25 pounder's the least of your worries.

[TankHunter678]

Question get the veteran sarge upgrade for PGs and use the Sprint ability when you hear the 25lbr going off, you can hear its gun going off for quite a distance, this will allow you to get out of the area faster then his shells can land. Also it will allow you to rush the defenses and wipe them out under the 25lbrs gun.

[lordkosc]

Hummel it !

http://www.coh-stats.com/factions/pa...ts/hummel.html

Use lock down to boost its range to 200 , and it should be safe to fire at it, once you fire, move it! If he starts to shell you before you are able to turn off lock down, just let it is, I've found that the Hummel actually gets hurt worse when it tries to move while being shelled.

Hummel at level 3 Offense is VERY DEADLY

[Bentguru]

Actually there have been numerous counters listed that will work for every player bar you. You seem to constantly find yourself so far behind that the British outnumber you three or four to one. I'd say the 25 pounder's the least of your worries.

Wildhound nailed it. It's not difficult to take out an entrenched brit if you know what you're doing. The fmj's anti-building incendiary device will destroy a 25pounder in one friggen shot. If you're completely unable to even pull that off well... you suck.

That of course being the simplest and most noob friendly tactic I can think of, I wont even bother listing the dozens of other ways you can blow a brit base to bits.

My personal favorite is whoring double AT, AT nades, and pshrek squads. 2 or 3 pshrek squads while you have double AT will rape a british base astoundingly quick. Support them with an mp44 mass, toss flame nades into every trench you see, and toss 2 AT nades per squad at any dangerous emplacements such as Bofors. Works like a charm.

And to refute your arguement before you even start thinking of it. If during a base assualt on an entrenched brit with a 25 pounder you actually let the 25 pounder hit some of your troops you're just flat out terrible.

[lordkosc]

=o

I never knew the fmj's had anti-building incendiary devices!

Thanks Bentguru

[Question]

Actually there have been numerous counters listed that will work for every player bar you. You seem to constantly find yourself so far behind that the British outnumber you three or four to one. I'd say the 25 pounder's the least of your worries.

I have not seen any counter-arguments to my explanations as to why all the counters listed so far in this thread will not work. So far the only thing has been "lol you suck". One 25 pounder, one 17 pounder, one piat squad, a Lt, and 2-3 infantry sections are hardly what you would consider a overwhelming force that outnumbers a PE force 3 or 4 to 1.

Question get the veteran sarge upgrade for PGs and use the Sprint ability when you hear the 25lbr going off, you can hear its gun going off for quite a distance, this will allow you to get out of the area faster then his shells can land. Also it will allow you to rush the defenses and wipe them out under the 25lbrs gun.

The sprint ability is also given IIRC when you have ALL infantry upgrades. The full list is : Advanced Repair, AT Grenade, Increased Capture Rate, Group Zeal, Squad Size Increase and Veteran Sargent upgrades, from all 4 buildings. The cost and time needed is atronomical.

Hummel it !

http://www.coh-stats.com/factions/p...its/hummel.html

Use lock down to boost its range to 200 , and it should be safe to fire at it, once you fire, move it! If he starts to shell you before you are able to turn off lock down, just let it is, I've found that the Hummel actually gets hurt worse when it tries to move while being shelled.

Hummel at level 3 Offense is VERY DEADLY

Not only is a Hummel a end path doctrine specific unit(a 25 pounder is guaranteed to come out way before a hummel does), it also only does 25 damage per direct hit(Good luck getting a direct hit firing into fog of war at max range) to a 25 pounder that has 450 hp. He can easily outrepair the damage between barrages.

And to refute your arguement before you even start thinking of it. If during a base assualt on an entrenched brit with a 25 pounder you actually let the 25 pounder hit some of your troops you're just flat out terrible.

Yes, because it takes a lot of skill to right click with infantry to move near a 25 pounder. Its not like someone with more skill can magically re-direct incoming 25 pounder shells. You are not being helpful here. Why dont we start trolling the marder3 balance thread with "if you actually let the marder3 hit some of your vehicles you're just flat out terrible."?

[TankHunter678]

Question you get Sprint when you get veteran sergeant period, as well as suppression resistance. Also in that building you can get AT HTs to make sure any problematic tanks are stuck and you can snipe infantry with its sighting ability. If you tech straight to it you are at the time you normally have marders. If you wait a bit after having a marder or two then get it, it makes it easier to get in close to kill the brits under their guns.

[Bentguru]

Yes, because it takes a lot of skill to right click with infantry to move near a 25 pounder. Its not like someone with more skill can magically re-direct incoming 25 pounder shells.

So, wait, you're saying that you suck? Cause thats what your reply seems to indicate. If it isn't hard to dodge 25 pounder rounds why aren't you doing it?

[Znuff]

Infantry blob vs entrenched positons tend to get extremely expensive if you are not very lucky. All it takes is a mortar barage or 25pdr to land on it ruin your day.

Spint does require all research to aquire, there was some early game guide that was wrong if thats where you got the idea that it was vet sergeants that gave it.

[TankHunter678]

Znuff, try it out yourself, even in the beta Veteran Sergeant upgrade gave sprint. The building the upgrade is in is generally the 3rd structure I built in the beta for the ability as well as progression towards Panthers.

[dreddnott]

Bengturu:

When Wedge suggested that he try the British 25-pounder tactic himself and see how Panzer Elite players countered it, he replied:

"All that would show is me getting beaten in the early game way before i can get a 25 pounder unless i setup a test game, but that wouldnt be realistic results."

If he's just saying he's really bad as the British then I can understand that - but still, properly knowing your enemy (his build order, strengths, and weaknesses) will equip you with more tools with which to defeat him.

[Question]

So, wait, you're saying that you suck? Cause thats what your reply seems to indicate. If it isn't hard to dodge 25 pounder rounds why aren't you doing it?

Im saying that the skill of the player doing the attacking with an infantry force has NO relevance to a 25 pounder's accuracy.

Question you get Sprint when you get veteran sergeant period, as well as suppression resistance.

Im taking my info from COH stats that says you need all the upgrades to get sprint o.O. Its wrong?

[TankHunter678]

Well testing it in a labbed game me and stokes found it needs the major upgrades, as in squad up, fast cap, fast repair, and the veteran sarge. The requirement of AT nades and flame nades I do doubt.

Which by the time you wind up facing 25lbrs unless you have been overdoing it on HT/marder spam you should have the fuel for everything needed to get sprint. Que in panzershrek upgrade and its no problem.

[Sturmtruppen]

dude just show us a replay, seriously unless the british has 99% of the map, he can't have a 25pder and 5 other emplacements and a ton of infantry squads all over the map... POP CAP LIMIT

ofcouse you can theorycraft about how hes ganna bren me and PIAT all the tanks, then have AT emp kill them while other squads and emplacement kill my charging infantry...

really just cant happen... what about using your ANTI INFANTRY units/ability to clear his infantry? if he stays in his trenches then just mortar the emplacements and harass his other points... and if your mortar halftrack gets hit by the 25pder, you really have to turn your sound up... its not hard to get pass the defenses unless you are losing badly

[Gethsemani]

As the Brits I got a 25lb up on the right side of Ango in a ranked match. To cover it I had a Vickers emplacement and a mortar pit (built earlier to ward off a sudden surge of Volks and MGs) and then I was totally starved for Manpower when that was combined with my Tommy squads, a stuart and a Cromwell command tank. There is no realistic chance that a Brit should amass enough mp to get a 25lb in a perfectly defended spot unless you have been outplayed. In that case, you have lost anyway and the 25lb is just the last nail in the coffin.

[Question]

Cap requirements for brit defences are not HUGE. Its like 3 cap for most of them, and the 25 pounder has 12.

[Bentguru]

Im saying that the skill of the player doing the attacking with an infantry force has NO relevance to a 25 pounder's accuracy.

Yeah, but unless you're an idiot and have your infantry sit still long enough for the 25 pounder to turn, aim, and fire, it will never hit your troops.

If you don't stop moving, his 25 pounder is irrelevant. It won't hit jack shit.

[Virigoth]

Kinda like nebel vs rangers

THough in all honesty, 25pdrs are awesome for exacting huge manpower price for assaults on british position. Since almost all british buildings are resitant to arty, there is nothing stopping the British player from shelling all over his own setup to nuke your infantry. You can't walk away from impact when shell travels less then 1s to impact.

Imo until overwatch is fixed, we'll never really see the true use of British arty. The whole Arty tree seems to be built around very tactical and intelligent use of arty that does not require much micro. Just a battle plan.

And for the record, creeping barrages with British ammo income on ango for example, are REALLY hard to walk away from