panzershrek for the love God!! No More

[Lyons66]

Hey Guys, I was playing the Hill last night and had a nice little group together 2 squads of rangers (with sub machine guns) 2 Shermans and about 3 squads of fire engs. The German player had amassed 3 or 4 panzershrek squads one mg and a half track and was systematically capping forward.
I powered up the group and sent the rangers in followed by the Shermans and then the engs to avoid getting killed to quickly. Anyways I got wiped I didn't even really get time to retreat it was all over so soon. I've always said the panzershreks were slightly overpowered and I stand by that even more as it seems they are as brutal against my infantry as well..... Correct me if I'm wrong but is it not an AT weapon? Sorry for the minor rant/question but that one battle pretty much did me in for the game. Any and I mean any suggestions as to how to handle the panzershrek blob (until it's belted with a nerf bat heh) would be really helpful.
Lyons

[kadorn]

In my opinion panzershrecks are fine, vs infantry they tend to miss the majority of the time, its only in huge numbers they start to trouble infantry. There is however a problem with how easily PE can get panzershrecks. Wehr are fine, but I think for PE they need to be restricted to tank buster squads only.

[UnholyX]

Yes PE get Shreck too much they should be Restricted to Tank Busters only. However I do think the may penintrat Frontal Armor to easily and that need to be looked into also.
I am also Axid Player not some guy crying about th e shreck, I almost never play allies. I also Play PE alot too.

[ContractHitman]

no pe are fine if you feel they overpowered they ant, use correct strat,

ie first pin large amounts of infi dont try using rangers, unless you have equal amounts of more.

also engineers works well if used properly though they can explode soemtimes lol

pe are fine and are supposed to be able to upgrade infi fast its part of their nature, if people keep wantign to neuf stuff soon every army will have a pop gun army and have bubble wrap around their tanks....

[Jaigen]

Yes PE get Shreck too much they should be Restricted to Tank Busters only. However I do think the may penintrat Frontal Armor to easily and that need to be looked into also.
I am also Axid Player not some guy crying about th e shreck, I almost never play allies. I also Play PE alot too.

pe shreks are less powerfull then werh shreks so it is fine

[Lyons66]

In my opinion panzershrecks are fine, vs infantry they tend to miss the majority of the time, its only in huge numbers they start to trouble infantry. There is however a problem with how easily PE can get panzershrecks. Wehr are fine, but I think for PE they need to be restricted to tank buster squads only.

hmm yes that would certainly make them abit more balanced. Blobs of Shrecks wiped out everything I had as I menstioned above.

[bottenbreker]

mmmm, in my opinion the tankbusters should get the shreks but NOT the pg's. give them a gewehr 43 and an mp40 or something (perhaps a faust like the volks?) then its fine. but right now its just build upgrade build upgrade build upgrade.... i win

[Ashmole3110]

Panzerschreck is fine.My only problem with it is that blobs equipped with the panzerschreck seem to never miss machine gun emplacements.Maybe there could be an accuracy penalty added for suppression or something?

[SoulessCorpse]

They are way to good at frontal armor, and too accurate at very long range. They should only be a little more accurate, and do a little more damage then zooks, but should be used the same!

[OliverDogg]

In real life, schrecks were improved bazookas, leave them like they are.

[bottenbreker]

no, seriously, i can take down a firefly with 1 tankbuster squad hell, i can even take down a cromwell with 1 tankbuster squad if i'm lucky and if you have the double shrek ability well, its bye bye armor

[Kinslayer]

no, seriously, i can take down a firefly with 1 tankbuster squad

Uh, no shit. The Firefly has a .4 accuracy modifier against infantry and will only kill 1 man when it does hit the squad. It already kicks enough ass versus tanks, don't buff it against infantry. This means on average it'll take about 10 shots to kill 1 4-man PG squad.

[silvermat]

Seriously keep the schrecks as they are....

[CrimsonAngel]

Well Lyon was playing against me.

I was Wehrmacht.

With 2 Grenadiers Squads and a MG i was stopped a small every thing he threw at me and when i got vet 3 i was GG.

Panserschrecs could use a bit of a town down i would say, but not to much or we will have the old Tank spam game back.

[Lyons66]

Well Lyon was playing against me.

I was Wehrmacht.

With 2 Grenadiers Squads and a MG i was stopped a small every thing he threw at me and when i got vet 3 i was GG.

Panserschrecs could use a bit of a town down i would say, but not to much or we will have the old Tank spam game back.

EvilAngel Evil

[KingzizeM]

The Schreck is cool as it is and i am sayin this as an allied player !
maybe reduce the frontal armor penetration slightly and the accuracy but not verry much change is needed because zooks are killers too @ the moment .
it is the PE wich is the problem because they can mass them like hell .
Availability is too early and too much .
panzergrenadiers should not be able to upgrade to schrecks .
leave them for the tankbusters .

I think somebody should beter open a poll to give the RR a buff ,
or reduce it's damn cost .

[LowlyGrunt]

All I think Schrecks need is a nerf vs frontal armour. They should still be good for flanking and ambushing tanks. Having less frontal penetration would mean they would be powerful in the right place, but harder to use properly.

I play Wehr a lot, and being able to destroy Allied tanks so easily head-on seems cheesy. Not that I see them that often anymore.

[natrapsmai]

We've had several threads about this, but I agree with the jist of it.

http://forums.relicnews.com/showthre...25#post2650525

Here's a just-posted replay that illustrates the "issue".

[MrSomeguy]

Schrecks are way OP vs the US imo. And the only reason I don't consider then OP to the brits is because lategame brits have enough resources the replace lost tanks. Also, brit tanks are more resistant.

[Zephris]

O.o brit tanks resistant? thats nuts.. uh anyhow from what i understand their very effective against weapons teams now for some reason.. and to effective against emplacements. I'd like to see AT weapons on infantry nerfed against all emplacement/buildings...

[Jaigen]

Some people really need to look at a faction as a whole before they scream nerf. Shreks are the only AT that is capable of killing allied armor till tier 4. what else can the wehrmacht count? on the pak? the stug? all these weapons are at best AT support as the speed of the allied armor makes them less then useful.

so the shreks are fine support your tanks with infantry and they will do just fine

[scoiatollo]

And what have Brits? Piats that shoot slower than anything else and the stationary 17pounder.

And US? Stickies (that can be dodged fairly easily) and the 57mm.

Who has the best tanks in the game? Wehrmacht/PE.

Either buff Piats/stickies or nerf the panzerfaust...

[Jaigen]

And what have Brits? Piats that shoot slower than anything else and the stationary 17pounder.

And US? Stickies (that can be dodged fairly easily) and the 57mm.

Who has the best tanks in the game? Wehrmacht/PE.

Either buff Piats/stickies or nerf the panzerfaust..

brits have button up that is very powerful. also piats are very good but you really need to put an lt next to the sappers otherwise they indeed suck. Not to mention they have extremely powerful defense against tanks in the form of the 17p. And the sherman firefly makes werh tanks nearly obsolete

The am have the power of the 57mm that kills any unsupported werh tanks. stickies to make sure the werh tanks stay in range of the 57mm and the cheap and mobile m10 tankhunter.

the werh only has the shrek to fight against factions that will have heavy tanks a lot sooner then they have.

[scoiatollo]

Lt. with piats is nice if not every enemy would focus fire on him as soon as he is seen. So not quite a good option to make your piats useable...

The 17punder is strong, but it can be flanked (also nebelwerfer will kill it pretty fast....)

And till a Brit has a firefly, the Axis will probably have 2 vet2 panzer4.... Also these tanks are fragile as hell....

Your theory about 57mm and stickies is nice, but again, stickies can be dodged, and the 57mm is more or less stationary and can be flanked with infantry.

Axis AT is the best in the game due it's mobility combined with the huge firepower it has. I really wouldn't mind it, but the AT of all the other factions is laughable compared to them imo...

[SilencerPL]

Oh ffs. 3rd thread for shreck nerf. Shreck was tank raper, shreck is tank raper and shreck must remain tank raper. Stop whining allready. Shrecks remaind the same from the begining and nobody in vcoh was bitching about shrecks being to powerful, now everybody is whining about anything.

PIATS are excelent AT, except when using them wrongly. 2 squads of PIATS can pretty damag KT.

[iaguz]

My only qualm with Kraut AT at the moment is the rather high penetration chance Schreks have against Shermans (88%). That's heaps high, and it sorta discourages one from teching, as easy to get and spam PanzerSchreks can lay waste to Shermans easily.

Other then that, I'd say Wehr AT is fine. It's very good, but it has some drawbacks. I would like to see the vet 3 Terror gren horde not quite as effective though, but that's something for another thread (and before you accuse me of being a stupid USA player whose full of shite, I'm number 21 ranked Wehrmacht player. I speak for both sides)

Shrecks remaind the same from the begining

Actually no. Schreks had a severe accuracy nerf/bug back in the day, and it wasn't properly addressed for quite some time.

Also, the best ways of defeating the vet 3 gren horde have gotten a lot weaker recently, mainly with the crappiness of the Strafing run and Armour company, and I believe the Croc was nerfed too, one of the best anti Gren horde units. Oh, and rifles cost 5mp more too, meaning it takes longer to get to shinier anti horde gubbinz.

[SilencerPL]

I believe you are saying about shreck vs infantry, and for moving vechicles. But the dmg remained the same.

And the strafing run isnt that weak. Vet2 and Vet3 was a counter to strafing run from the vcoh. Croc was nerfed just a little. Some range nef and little dmg. Croc wtfpwns vet2 wermacht grens/stroms.

Ymm rifles cost 270mp same as before.

[KingzizeM]

@ silencer

You must not forget that piatA miss 30 times as much as a PS does ,
and are only good against slow or units not moving .
like i said before the PS needs to be toned down a little against frontal penetration
and the accuracy tweaked a little , almost every shot is a direct hit dealing out high damage .
the damage is okay but the frontal penetration need to be looked at knowing that a bazooka never penetrates front armor and when it does it doesn't do shit .
that is why rangers have fireup to flank and still they there are threads to remove fireup from them haha ,funny .

[SilencerPL]

Well Im not voting to remove fireup just to increase mg damage on fireup units.

Rangers have fire up, but tommies have button up, rifles has stickies, PE has AT-HT and what do wermacht have? Mines can be put by all factions. Im playing all factions and I dont see the problem of shrecks as I know they are killers so I try to avoid them with tanks.

Shrecks can alos miss from long range at moving tanks/vechs and shermans dont have that big penalty while on the move. Also cromwells have almost 100% acc against infantry.. at least I have such a feling.

And remember wermacht is 4 man vs 6 man us and vs 5 man brits. volks do shit to tommies even with mp40.

[bottenbreker]

well, buys. please do keep in mind that the panzershrek was the best portable AT weapon in the war. it had high penentration and well, the sherman kinda sucked

[Jaigen]

@ silencer

You must not forget that piatA miss 30 times as much as a PS does ,
and are only good against slow or units not moving .
like i said before the PS needs to be toned down a little against frontal penetration
and the accuracy tweaked a little , almost every shot is a direct hit dealing out high damage .
the damage is okay but the frontal penetration need to be looked at knowing that a bazooka never penetrates front armor and when it does it doesn't do shit .
that is why rangers have fireup to flank and still they there are threads to remove fireup from them haha ,funny

zooks are free and against panthers and tigers they do nearly as much damage as shreks vs shermans thx to that 1.5 damage modifier. and using fireup you can easily get behind the slow wehrmacht tanks

if you nerf the shreks the stug needs to be buffed to its former glory and the at shells need to be removed from 57 mm and 17 pounders to keep the axis in the game.

I'm quite serious about that as the wehr has nothing till tier 4 to counter sherman rush except shreks. anyway losing shermans to shreks is an sign that you micro is poor

[KingzizeM]

@ Jaigen

57mill has already been nerfed big time don't you think ? but i do get your point .
i know bazooka's kick ass but they only work when flank , that is why the rangers have fireup but there has been several threads to remove it from them .
how do hell could you kill a tank then without it when zooks only penetrate sideways and from the rear .


But still i think the schreck is too much available for the PE in numerous ways .
for the werh i understand they need it but the panzer elite wich already can pop out tankbusters ??? i dunno .
but i guess relic they made that decision because the PE lack standard AT unit capability .
they only have the marder III and the light AT track , the rest are all call in units .

[eddyeddyd]

I love how it takes 8.239 billion years for the soldiers to actually fire their at weapons.

[natrapsmai]

Buff the Stug and the Puma and hell even the Werhmacht T4 units if need be. Shreks shouldn't be the end all solution against Allied armor, it should be part of a combined arms approach.

And for the record...

- Paks are pretty good now.
- Bazookas aren't bad by today's standards but are still unit and doctrine specific as well as not having the range or penetration shreks do. The only reason they're really viable right now is because of ranger spam, and we all know the elite infantry needs a nerf.

[beeler]

Personaly, I find that allies who bring up support with their tanks dont loose them because I get 2 shots of and my shreks die. I never mass shreks unless someone masses tanks. The panther needs to have backup to do its thing, reducing shreks would just make allied tanks OP. Everytime I find an ally who brings up support I run cause there is no way my shreks will live long enough to kill something + I dont want them going to the enemy. PAKS SUCK!!!!!!!!!! the staurt kills them 1 shot and goes right around them with ease. The stuart is a light tank too people. If you want fast tanks (speedwise people), you have to deal with shreks.


And natrapsmai, if an wehr is spamming you with one unit you have problems because wehr is the only race that HAS TO use combined arms to win. nerf the PE all you want because they are OPed, but the wehr is perfect.

[TankHunter678]

The only side with the Panzershrek problem is PE, because they are not as munitions heavy as Wehrmacht is so they can get more shreks because of this, hell they can even spend MP for shreks. So their shrek sount is double that of Wehrmacht.

Oh and natrapsmai Paks are only good at vet 3 where they rival the American AT gun in damage output. Due to the 1.25 damage modifier at vet level 3 a Pak 38 goes from 115 damage to 143.75 damage. When not cloaked. When cloaked with first strike 179.6875 damage pretty close the American AT gun using AP rounds.

So right now without vet level 3 a Pak 38 is Inferior to all other AT guns. Therefore Wehrmacht must invest in shreks, so instead of 310 MP for an AT gun they must spend 300 MP and 75-150 Munitions to gain an effective AT unit.

Shreks also beat StuGs in baseline damage output and penetrates better.

So Until Tier 4 Wehrmacht needs shreks.

Nerf PE shrek but leave wehrmacht alone unless you buff the Pak 38 and the StuG to compensate.

[deathBOB]

I think all AT weapons are too effective against infantry. AT guns, bazookas, and shreks should hit troops very rarely. Outfitting your squads with only shreks should have some kind of trade off.

[Alcorr]

Panzershrecks are fine. Expensive for Wehr and the PE shrecks are weaker....

This was never an issue before...it shouldn't be now...

[BraveRifles]

I love it when my troops pick up 'shreks after a well fought skirmish. Nothing better than a squad 'shrekin out with a 3 Stripe LT. armed with one. Much better in a trench than a '42... They work for us better than they worked for them in my experience...

[SilencerPL]

I love when my troops pick that BAR after a well fought skirmish. Saves me 75 muni for medi-kits or nades . And I love to steal that trenches with shrecked grens.

[BraveRifles]

Well, OF Tommies dont have the luxury of the lovely BAR...

In the previous game however, I am sure that some of the Jerries got hold of John Browning's finest weapon... They did find out that ammo was a bit harder to come across though... 30.06 was not one of the preferred National Socialist calibers...
Thank god for the metric system...
I loves me a sweet B.A.R.

[zan]

i love schrecks... in the hands of my commandos. generally i prefer schrecks to PIATs so i tend to take the schrecks of the fallen enemies.

[SilencerPL]

The only thing that should be nerfed about shrecks is the drop % it is OP

[Dymo]

Comparing Bazookas vs Shreck results in only very slight differences over-all stat wise.

The big 3 found were:

Scatter angle, 20 vs 7.5 (12.5 degrees is a lot, especially over long ranges)

AoE splash damage. (D/L) .5 vs (D/L) 1.2 (nominal difference but the Shreck does do it better)

Damage 75 vs 120 (self evident)

So when you combine a tighter scatter with a higher damage output the effect is as if they STACK the power output.