[Game] Homeworld 2 Grand Strategy Boardgame

[Norsehound]

Right then...

As a biproduct of my efforts for the Homeworld 2 Map, I suddenly wondered one day "Hey, what if I combine this Homeworld map (which I had right in front of me) with a boardgame? Specificly, some kind of hex-and-counter game like the old ones Avalon Hill used to make- and maybe make it even playable!".

So I immediately hexified the map (See the Map thread), and took the idea and ran with it. So now I have a map more or less done (just adding info in the blank spaces), the rules have a solid direction...

and three sheets' worth of counters:
Sheet1
Sheet2
Sheet3

(Notes on counters: Left value is combat strength. This is taking into account the unit's composition, overall quality of the ships in the unit, and the average training of the fleets for that unit. The Right value is movement. Yellow movement factors mean that this unit is a raider and has special properties.

Units in outline are reserve units, and have either special scenario applications, or are other forces available for more players in the game.)

Before you complain about being unable to see the type, the counters were created to be 1/2 inch in scale. I can adjust this, and the final map, if requested- but one of the default sizes of the printers here on my campus is the large size of the map.

Rules need polishing and need to be put in a playable state, as well as at least one scenario written, before they are released. Right now I"m trying to decide on a combat-resolution mechanic. It's a tossup between Probability ratios (i.e., like most old wargames: find a ratio of attacker-to-defender strength, roll a die and look at the result), or difference between combat factors (plus the die thing).

Current version of the Map here

To my knowledge this is the only attempt I know of to make another kind of game based on the Homeworld universe and get this far. I might not have any skills in modding, but I hope this can make up for it.

[GunneySarge]

I noticed the Viking longboat in sheet three a nice touch. Good job by the way on the final map and the counters themselves. when are you going to post the rules as well?

[Norsehound]

I'm working on them right now.

I want to get them into a semi-playable state before I put out the alpha version of the rules (and finished counters- there were some edits from the ones posted since I added the "reserves" rules and reversed the direction of some of the ships).

What I need now are a Combat Resolution Table and a basic set-up for the testers to have a scenario to run. If I get a set all finished by the time Thanksgiving break rolls around, I'll play around with set-up configurations and prolly fiddle with the CRT to see what's 'fair' and balanced (just to see what works).

Hehe, yeah... I wasn't involved in the longboat deal when HW2 speculation was abound, but I thought it would be nice to put it in there for people who can appreciate it. It's not a serious unit- since it seems to be the most powerful unit in the game, second only to the T-Mat ship which uses special rules.

(oh, and true dedication means you're up till the AM working on your brainchild at the expense of sleep )

[GunneySarge]

I'd be happy to test this game with my brother when you get the rules up.Only thing I would need to know is how to print out the whole map in seeable sections.

On another note why not have rules for the galactic council.Where after twenty turns or so all council nations haave one "member" who is chosen with a roll of the dice.This one member makes a resoultion one of trade,peace or war.he council then votes on the issue for either yea or nay.Once the resoultion is met all memeber nations have to abide by that ruling or face sanctions.This of course would really need a full game of people.Plus is there going to trade? in the form of resources? or would that make it to complicated?

[Wintermute]

I endorse this thread. Though I fear what carnage the Viking Goat Ship may wreck with a combat strength of Nine and Movement of Seven.

May the Homeworld Universe tremble before it's wrath.

I look forward to seeing the rules when they are done.

[Norsehound]

The main focus of the game is strategic movement across the map, not so much trade and politics. I do have some things in the rules for the 'disposition of the galactic powers'- which I might either develop or drop because of the effect it has on game play.

So far the only thing that 'affects' it really is if you conquer a planet under their control or use an ADW... Basically the only thing it 'does' is either allows you to use GP ships and enter their territory or not. I might just drop the whole part of that mechanic because 1) It uses a big table that has no other use and 2) because it would be easy to overlook when playing the turn.

Rules, though, exist for Kiiths Somtaaw, Soban, and Kadeshi (if desired) to be played by separate players if so desired. Otherwise they're treated as "reserves"- fleets that can only be activated when some circumstances have been met (usually this is if the enemy comes within 3 hexes of the Capital).

"Commerce" in the game is supply. Every fleet on the board has a supply requirement and has to be 'in supply' in order to fight at their full capability. Units out of supply fight at half strength (round up).

Activating reserve units and some other actions require a player to 'pay' supply that turn- meaning they need to have that much available. There is no stockpiling supply- you only have 'that much' per turn.

Supply is (now anyway), every major system under your control x 3.5. There are exceptions of course (Somtaaw get supply from every Explorer they have on the board- Explorers provide 10 supply each).

[JRL3001]

Ooo is that a Somtaaw Arkangel I see on sheet the third? :3

[Norsehound]

The Somtaaw have either mothballed or scrapped most of their beast-era fleets. They do have their old Archangels, Deacons, and frigate forces laid up in reserve in the Somtaaw Highlands.

You must understand that in my canon, Somtaaw's fantastic technology (Energy cannons, shield barriers) came at the great expense of longevity. The technology they employed was very experimental and employed out of desperation rather than any practical advances. So when these flaws became apparent, Hiigara at large discontinued the use of these vessels and eventually engineered the "3rd Generation" of combat vessels- ships that eventually became the Hiigaran fleets we see "today".

Archangels and their ilk (as well as older Taiidani "Qwaar-Jet" Cruisers) are considered obsolite by Hw2 standards mostly because they do not support subsystems. These things are critical in most battlefields and can change the tactical situation so significantly enough that they are one point less in combat strength than most "modern" navies (Hiigaran and Vaygr).

Also to note that I've made Taiidani NCAs (New Heavy Cruisers) all reserve fleets- the Taiidani don't start out with them (they deploy with Vaygr Liscened ships and their older fleets). Though the Taiidan Advanced series are more powerful than contemporary Hiigaran and Vaygr designs, they are mostly seen in this era as experimental one-offs and prototypes that won't see development since the Taiid have allied with the Vagr. Historically this changes when the Taiidani divorce themselves from the Vaygr and start up their own ship production.

Well, I decided on a CRT (for now anyway), might change with playtesting but here it is:


And here it is on the map

I tried divying up the attacker and defender results based on color, but I can't think of a "homeworld solution" to color the fonts differently. I could go all-white, but I think it would be easier if the attackers or defenders instantly discovered if they had won or lost a combat.

[Ammon Ra]

You know...you could create a flash/java turn-based space strategy game out of this. Who knows, get permission from THQ, and make monies

[Norsehound]

Alrighty...

Since I'm going to be going back home for the weekend (a mere half hour from my school's campus...however), I won't be anywhere near my computer until about Sunday evening or so, barring any casual checking from my parent's computer. Reguardless, I'll probably be away/unable to check my stuff here.

And since I didn't print out a map or copy of the counters, I can't work on scenario setups for you guys to try.

However, I can upload the version of the rules I have for you guys to look over and critique:

RULES V.01!

Note that _None_ of this has been playtested (especially the combat resolution system!). Stuff _will_ be tweaked over the course of the development of the game.

A thing to note here though: Some may note that the Hiigaran v Vaygr resource balance is disproportionate- the Vaygr can support more units. This is, I feel, balanced by the lower quality of Vaygr fleets, despite having extra tech. Traditionally the Hiigarans are on the defensive, and have to maintain their position by activating reserves to bolster their fleets.

One way to do this is by activating the Somtaaw Explorers, which provide 10 more supply per ship on the board. However, I can't figure out if I want to state "historically" weather or not the Somtaaw Explorers were still in active service or not.

Then again, why not? My Unpublished story, The Fire, speaks of the days just before the Vaygr Invasion and there was a Somtaaw explorer still active. They've been pretty much usurped by modern Carriers in most aspects, but the Explorers are still bigger than the carriers and can (somehow) construct capital craft- which carriers can't.

Feel free to print out a board, pieces, and start experimenting. Constructive critisim is appreciated when it comes to the rules and such.

[GunneySarge]

Once again how do you print out the board into manegable sections?

[Norsehound]

I'm not sure I can help you with this one- you might either have to go to Kinkos or task your printer to print in sections.

Alternatively, for testing only a small part of the board is needed. Like this . That should be enough to test mechanics and have at least some ships from the Hiigaran, Vaygr, Taiidan, and GP nations in-play for some limited scenarios. I might even print a copy myself to playtest for small-scale scenarios.

...someone raised this question on my DA page and I might as well answer it here.

Fleet cost for deployment is that fleet's strength factor. Reserves are twice strength. Special units (Hyperspace gates, Hyperspace inhibitors) cost 3 supply to deploy, but none to maintain. The limits of how many of these units can be placed are handled in the special rules section.

aaaaannd.... I'm off! See you guys Sunday

[DrRansom]

Would it be possible to standardized the far jump cores? As it stands, they are too random and too inefficient. Something like 3 + D6 maybe, that would give the far jump a distinctive advantage over normal movement, but still be random.

And, ensure that Sajuuk has far jump capacity.

Finally, is their a way to besiege a planet, without a straight assault, or block trade lanes to nearby ships? If this is possible, it would give a new ability to outnumbered forces. They could try to flank the enemy and slice the lines of communications, allowing outnumbered forces to win battles.

[Norsehound]

Just checking in briefly since I had the opportunity...

Making some edits now to the rules...

5.11 The Three Hyperspace cores:
The three cores are special equipment modules installed in the Pride of Hiigara, the Sword of Vaygr, and Bentus. The effects of the cores are represented by the units that carry them.

When a Mothership or Bentus is stacked with a fleet, the Mothership may use its Far Jumper to move the entire fleet further than allowed otherwise. Players roll 2D6. This is the maximum distance the Mothership and its stacked units may move that turn.

For whatever reason, if the Mothership is forced into a Hazard Zone, hyperspace travel immediately stops and the Mothership may not proceed any further.

5.32 Trinity: With the three hyperspace cores working in tandem, Sajuuk and any units jumping with it roll four dice instead of two per (5.11)

As for interdiction... perhaps a rule should be provided that says something like "any enemy unit positioned between a ship and it's source of supply for more than one turn is considered to be out of supply and fights for half strength." Perhaps this should be given to raiders, since task forces like these are specialized in behind-the-lines attacks.

I'm thinking turns here span either a month or a week, given the scale involved, and there should be enough supplies in a Hiigaran force to last and supply them with at least one counter-attack before they are effectively considered out of ammo and manpower.

Has anyone tried playing a successful game so far? Or at least tested the mechanics?

Perhaps my 'lite' map could be used above, with the objective of capturing Hiigara or Jigoku, using variuos setups of forces. *shrug*.

See you guys later.

[Wintermute]

I would test the game / play it, but I do not have access to a printer capable of producing the game-board on a workable scale, or the unit counters.

If - perhaps - a toned-down version of it could be converted into Flash (or some other medium), we could try it online? But that could be too much work for too little benefit, I don't know.

Still, it looks great so far. This and the Homeworld Galaxy Map (combined with all the lore you wrote with it, even if it wasn't official) are really very impressive and inspiring.

[Norsehound]

Making a game via flash like that requires some programming skills... unfortunately for me, the flash element of my class (time based media) seems to be more of an afterthought- we aren't even going over the functions related to vector-based graphics. If I learn, it'll have to be on my own.

I encourage people to use the "printer friendly" map for simulations to test mechanics, if they are unable to print a fullsize map (which I suspect is all of you, otherwise there would be more playtest results.)

Making a B&W map has the problem of making players wonder which spaces are theirs...

[Norsehound]

Irony is interesting...

I've been forced to create a B&W map version of the board, as my school's print shop does not offer oversize copies in color.

So for whomever needs it...
A Black and White version of the game map

Theoreticly this means one could print the entire board with a printer now, since it's black and white. Some of the rules, however, treat the board as if it's still in color so...

Hopefully this'll draw more people to play the game now and generate some feedback.

[Norsehound]

OK, as some of you have read, my computer broked. It means I have no access to the rules, the board, the peices, et.all.

Fortunately, I managed to print the BW copy of the board, the laminated pieces, and the copy of the rules I had printed on this page. So I have my own prototype to play with I'm doing matte-board cuts of 1/2in squares to make the pieces thick enough to be picked up.

Soon I'll be experimenting with setup alternatives for the least intensive of the scenarios. If I can get them transcribed to computer (and back TO a computer), I'll post what I have.

[Eric072691]

I could do you a flash version, it would take a while and there wouldn't be an AI yet but at least there'll be something for those who can't really print.

[Norsehound]

Huh... well, I'd say go for it. I'm offering the game to the community... and am a little disappointed nobody at least gave it a shot or second thought.

Assuming I can recover some of the game files soon (haven't tried recessitating the old hard drive yet), I can prolly provide you with the .ai files that I used to construct the game.

theres little advice I Can offer you (or anyone) about flash, since my time-based media course with flash was on the side of useless.

[AMARDA]

Any chance of seeing Turranic vessels? And most important of all (as far as some people are concerned) the Kadesh?

But I want Turranic vessels (I recommend you use Raider's Acent modification for their fleet).

[Norsehound]

The Kadesh and Turanic have been included in the game.

Raider's Acent? I'm not sure what you mean.... Are you even in the right thread?

This is a strategic game, not a tactical one. Reguardless of the composition of ships, the units on the board either represent fleets of 'standard' strength or significant groups of special units (ADWs for example. I left it deliberately vauge on weather or not it's just one warhead or one swarm of warheads, to leave it up to the player's imagination).

The unit icons on the unit tokens can be said (though not strictly said) to contain an example of that unit in the fleet. For example, the reserve Imperial Taiidan ships are mostly new generation vessels- represented by my take on a Taiidan Advanced Heavy Cruiser. The Turanic raider icons may represent a Lord Carrier at the center of the group of ships.

[Eric072691]

Well for this kind of game, I would suggest you (as always) plan your code. I'd have all the stats (ship strength, production, ect) stored in an action layer (as always) which would be global (1 Key Frame, no others ever). All values static.

Then create a button(only the hit portion or make it have a white glow in "over" to highlight said tile) that matches the size of a map tile. Base the engine of code (movement of objects ect.) on the size of said tiles and go on from there. I could come up with some icons, for the ships (octagonal tile with the ship and stats, maybe have it display in 3d or "glow")

Oh almost forgot. put all data you want to be changeable but not the flash into xml files they store the info best in my opinion.
-- hope this helps.

[Norsehound]

I could storyboard or map out ideas of how the game would play in a flash enviroment, but with no knowledge of coding nor a program that helps me do this, a flash version of this game is beyond my capabilities at present.

Others are free to make it based on the game though, as long as I (and Relic) are given proper credit.

[Eric072691]

I smell a side-side-spare time-project..
:will get started asap:

[tehashi]

I have tried to find a copy of an old Naval board game of this type so i could help in fleshing out your rules, but i can't seem to find a single one in my town.

I admit that a flash version would be more interesting for the sheer cause of i doubt i would find anyone to play against here. :-j

However, i am loving what you have so far and i will go over the rules you posted some more, maybe i can help a little.

[crazykushan]

ohhhh this game is fantastic
could you make rules for how meany units each race starts of with and could you write more backround cus i have no idia where half these places are.im trying to print out the board but my printers acting up.

[crazykushan]

did u base the game on diplamacy

[Arioch]

It's beautiful work, from a graphic design perspective.

[Norsehound]

Thanks Arioch

I tried to maintain accuracy within the Homeworld universe when it came to ship portrayal... most of the vessels (Sans the Advanced Taiidan Battlecruiser) are derived from fan artwork in one place or another.

So it's said again, I encourage people to create their own scenarios and test out the game model before I make predefined setups and such. Since I left all my game materials I created back in livermore (and since I have more pressing concerns- like Relic's Biggest Fan contest), I can't immediately get back into the game. As it is, I think I'd have to re-read what I have written for the rules before I can return to work on this map.

And as it is, it may be defunct if I go forward with the hyper-accurate Redux map *shrug*.

[crazykushan]

i got i printed and im just cuting out the counters
its such a cool game keep working on it

[Hiigaran_Vaygr]

When I Saw the map i saw the Vaygr capotal and i thought the capital planet was Vay

[Norsehound]

The Vaygr have no capital per-se... they have "Prime worlds", which are the headquarters for the armada's major operation and would be the primary source for most of their mothership-sized combat craft (shipyards, flagships). They are the 'centers' of Armada control.

So when a hex is called a 'capital' it doesn't necessarily mean that this hex contains one world that is a capital planet- it just means that's the administrative center of that nation.

[INsaneTACS]

hmm. why is the karos graveyard so small? I thought it was huge. it was (is) my favorite thing aobut the game...seeing all those huge wrecks.

[Norsehound]

Karos IS huge, when you think of it in perspective. On this map, Karos is larger than some space empires. I never composed a scale for this map, but needless to say a hex is many light years across.

[crazykushan]

hows it doing ive played the game and it works really well

[GunneySarge]

(A hole opens up and Gunney walks through) Glad to see your still working on this Norse (sighs) I really gotta spend more time on this board. getting out of touch over here.

[yasotay]

Norse,

Brilliant work Sir! If you would like a full sized color map, please PM.

[Nurizeko]

Very cool, I love these sort of games. If my printer worked I'de totally be stealing these for my own amusement. :P


Top stuff.

[Mantaray]

as-always a truely inspired idea...
i was looking at somehow intergrating paper models into a more warhammer-style fleet engagement system.. probably basced on core rules from an opensource programme like battlefield evolution.

unfortunatly it would mean i would need to re-extract, colour and make all the HW2 starships (wich with the goblins would be mental >.<) if i could somehow remove the goblin layer it would make ship construction far less taxing...

anyways, if i ever develop the rules for such a game im sure its a topic for another thread

i wish you good luck norse, this has amazing potential..
if anyone knew how to work the online tabeltop sim 'vassal' then im sure this could be done online...

[Eric072691]

I'm gonna do a full size test of this Friday, but I'd like to ask if it was possible to break the full size map into a bunch of 8.5x11 pages for printing (I don't have a large scale printer)

[crazykushan]

i printed it out and it printed out on 8 a4 sheets

[Norsehound]

Not sure if it's worth a bump, but here it is.

After 70$ of christmas money, I purchased the game Outreach by SPI. Like all awesome hex-and-counter boardgames, it's long out of production. However, I've tinkered with the rules and the components some and it made me think about this game again. I wondered about making some changes...

The first obviously is the map. In concert with the second map projection (as accurate as possible based on what concept maps and canonical (sans Cata- too contradictoary) maps were presented ingame), the map would be re-done. Scale is still unknown, but I'm shooting for big scale here.

I might want to modify the sizes of the hexes to accomodate the .5in counters. I've tried experimenting with a 0.7in Radius for zoomed in maps for Outreach. I might experiment with a bottle war of the Taiidan Civil war for this though, to see if it works.

I might do away with fleet strength all together, making the values determined by markings on each counter. This might do away with veteran fleets (easily represented by modifying the battle strength) and such, but it might make for streamlined gameplay.

Battles then would be fleets versus fleets (3v3 maximum, almost like Risk) and resolved in some way (die roll?). It would also make representing battles through Homeworld 2 much, much easier since maps are usually 3v3.

I think the supply system needs to be looked at and streamlined. The way it is now, I think, is based on the Federation & empire system of hexes and planets generating an income to be spent on spaceships. I might think about switching the 'expendable income' (Monopoly) to something like a support system (Risk), wherin players get x amount of points to use in keeping fleets on the battlefield.

The problem with that is that nations with lesser territories operate smaller fleets, which means a player loosing the war would just make it worse for them. Perhaps modifiers could be introduced to offset this.

So I'm not actually working on this now, but I'm posting my ideas here (since this is something of a development journal, like most of my projects here) and to gauge if there would be interest in a game like this. Of course the biggest handicap is the map board...

[BmB]

How do you... um... win?

[Norsehound]

Well the general idea was universal domination :P

It would have been up to the scenario for the victory conditions. Something like 'elliminating all of X ships' or "Bring X ship to Y destination".

In general play usually wining entails wiping out the enemy and taking their space.

[Lurch]

As a fan of strategy games and homeworld I would be intrested though I’d have problems finding others to play with.

[BmB]

Games where total annihilation is the object tend to take an unreasonable amount of time though.

[Stingra]

So do large Warhammer and Warhammer 40k games, but that doesn't stop people from playing them along with RISK.

[BmB]

RISK is where my experience in this field comes from.

[Norsehound]

Obviously scenario objectives would determine how one would 'win' the game.

For example, perhaps a small scenario depicting Homeworld 2's war would only involve the Hiigarans, Vaygr, and maybe some other powers as passive NPCs (they never move, only defend the hex). Each side would be given objectives for winning the scenario (Hiigarans have to survive 10 turns. Vaygr have to seize Hiigara).

That's just one scenario though. A total war scenario might involve something from capturing two other capitals to conquering two Galactic Council nations... something to that effect. 'Total domination' might not mean completely wiping out the enemy force- just taking all his significant planets and making his/her fleet homeless.

Lurch: I have problems with finding players also. If I get around to making this take off again, I'd provide some solitare scenarios or rules to simulate an opponent. Outreach also comes with solitare rules for solitare play- though the scale of that game is inappropreate to 'borrow' for Homeworld (since turns in outreach are 1 generation).