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Relic is being pretty unprofessional lately

  1. #1
    Member drChengele's Avatar
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    Relic is being pretty unprofessional lately

    First of all, this is not a rant thread. If any of the mods see this as one they should feel free to close the topic, but I do feel that there is strong discussion potential here. To that end, I would like to ask people in this topic to not Relic-bash because all that will achieve is getting the topic shut down sooner than you can say "STFU N00b". I would rather have a civilised discussion about - well, about how Relic is giving off an impression of an immature developer collapsing under its own weight recently.

    It is my observation (and I stand by it) that Relic is completely and utterly incapable of doing things properly when patching this game.

    Here are just a few things that happened with previous Relic's CoH patches:

    - glaring bugs you'd have to be blind to miss (jeeps crushing tank traps, invulnerable M3 halftrack)
    - huge and uncalled for balance patches that completely screw up the game (1.5)
    - patch downloaded but does not change anything (this happened a lot in OF Beta, but since it's a beta we can let that one slip, I suppose)
    - inexplicable server-side problem with stats recording immediately after new patch was applied.
    - suddenly, patch completely changes game behavior compared to the game we purchased (vanilla users who were forced to switch to the new anti-piracy system, despite the servers frequently being down, if they wanted to ever play online again).
    - and now this. Anyone who patched the game will have to reinstall the game and repatch it.

    I have never, let me repeat that, never seen such abhorrent patching attempts. I've seen games that were not supported at all, but of all the games that were supported post-release, this one is by far the worst that I know of.

    Now I know you'll say Relic is not obligated to support their games. And I will say that is correct. However, they do choose support their games, and the shabby, half-baked mannerin which they do it is definitely a disgrace for any serious game developing company. If you are playing with the big boys (Microsoft, Vivendi, etc.), do it properly or don't do it at all. If I did volunteer work at a clinic and killed 90% of my patients through incompetence, would I still have the right to say "well, I do not have to try to help people, so appreciate what I am trying to do"?

    Amusing and faulty comparisons aside, I fear this may cost Relic a lot of customers. Less customers = less sales, less sales = no more budget = no more premium games from Relic. Something is very, very wrong with the way they manage their Q&A, and patching of the games in general. I would love to hear some negative publicity on the net, because negative publicity would mean a few heads would probably roll and it stands to reason the replacements would try twice as hard to keep their heads on their shoulders.

    What is happening to Relic? It is my favourite game developer, and the shabby support process gives off an impression that they are some small group of enthusiasts in Canada who can code premium 3d engines but can't even come up with a functional patch no matter how hard they try.
    Oh, and a small sidenote on game balance:

    I realize balance is highly subjective. However, the majority of the players agree that Opposing Fronts brought us many changes that completely turned the CoH gameplay upside down. You'll probably say that change is expected of an expansion, and I would normally agree; however, the gameplay changes Opposing Fronts brought were almost all negative. They took the premium tactical concerns that are supposed to be trademarks of Company of Heroes franchise (not just a fleeting vanilla CoH fancy), such as cover advantages and flanking, and threw them down the bin (Group Zeal or Heroic Charge anyone?). Tank frontal armor now makes absolutely zero difference - Fireflies and Marders will rip them up all the same.

    Take a look at the game, there are four factions currently being played: Infantry Company, Luftwaffe, Commandoes, and Wehrmacht.


    While it may not be a thing concerning with technical know-how, balance is yet another aspect that you can get right or wrong, and by all indications, Relic gets it wrong pretty often.
    Last edited by drChengele; 27th Nov 07 at 4:42 PM. Reason: Browser screwed up, posting duplicate threads. It should work now.
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  2. #2
    I have never, let me repeat that, never seen such abhorrent patching attempts. I've seen games that were not supported at all, but of all the games that were supported post-release, this one is by far the worst that I know of.
    EA's BF2 was worse. They had the whole "roll back to a previous version" long before.

    And secondly, your entire post is effectively useless since Relic doesn't do the QA.
    THQ does.

  3. #3
    Senior Member CaptHurricane's Avatar
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    But what's your point my dear Dr ?

    Gord knows I have my own issues with Relic/THQ atm but now is the time for all of us that love the game to rally round and try to make the best of a poor job.

    We may well turn out to have a jolly good laugh about this in a couple months time.
    Last edited by CaptHurricane; 27th Nov 07 at 4:41 PM. Reason: spl
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  4. #4
    Member drChengele's Avatar
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    I fixed this thread, the other one should be deleted. Ugh. I apologize for the confusion caused by my stupid browser :P.

    I presume it's safe to discuss now, so to reply to comments:

    Daton, I didn't play BF2 so I guess that is covered by the "that I know of" safety clause. Also, I don't think EA support has the right to compete here. Any game having a better support than an EA game is pretty much a given. No matter how bad you are, there is always EA to make you look - well, not so bad.

    As for "THQ does the Q&A" argument, Relic must first screw something up in order for THQ to fail to detect it.

  5. Technical Help Senior Member Modding Senior Member Homeworld Senior Member  #5
    www.relicnews.com ÜberJumper's Avatar
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    Daton:

    Oh Relic's certainly at least partially to blame for the 2.200 issue. They do after all make the builds that THQ's QA tests. Relic has to test them before THQ gets them.

    Also, Relic is THQ... so there should be no distinction.

    All that being said, no one set out to cause issues, and certainly with new people working there there's bound to be issues. Yes it sucks, but worse things have happened. (Anyone remember half life's uninstaller? hahaha that's a defect).

  6. #6
    Rankles
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    Clearly anyone who thinks Relic are unprofessional has never had a real job.

    These things that have happened are minor mistakes. In your case, they are adding onions to a pizza which didn't want onions. They are bagging bleach with chicken, or bagging heavy goods on top of a loaf of bread. They are accidentally using 2 parts bleach to eight parts water instead of one to nine. They are giving someone a single when they clearly asked for a return.

    They are minor mistakes in a job where thousands of potential mistakes are prevented daily. Grow the hell up, accept that these things happen and above all accept that you don't work for a major gaming software company and know jack all about making computer games.

  7. #7
    Rankles, that post would have been fine in a thread with a rant, but this isn't one. Relic screwed up and the OP is commenting on why/how this could have happened. Grow the hell up? Hmm. There's no brownie points at stake here, I wish some people could see that.

  8. #8
    Member BoDyBaG2224's Avatar
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    This all falls into the "shit happens category". We pay once for the game. If we want to start paying a monthly fee for the game and this happens I would be the first person to start bashing them. The fact of the matter is that after you pay your 50 dollars for the game, that is it.

    Plus you have to remeber that we sort of caused this (the community). Everyone bitched and moaned, said that they are leaving the game and blah blah blah blah. So Relic not wanting to lose customers, have to get into overdrive to get out this new patch. By putting pressure on them (more then what is already on them) they are bound to make mistakes, it happens to everyone.

    I get the picture that people envision Relic as a holy entity that is the perfect being. The fact is that you won't find flawless service anywhere.

    Also
    Relic is THQ... so there should be no distinction.
    How is Relic THQ? Relic is the game designer and THQ is the game publisher. True that THQ bought Relic in 2004 but THQ doesn't have input on features and bug fixes. It is like how BF2 is made by DICE, and published by EA (however I thik that EA worked with DICE).

    Perhaps saying that THQ is Relic rather then Relic is THQ, will clear up confusion. I'm not trying to be rude, but better understand the gaming industry.
    Last edited by BoDyBaG2224; 27th Nov 07 at 5:02 PM.

  9. #9
    Plus you have to remeber that we sort of caused this (the community).
    Ridiculous.

  10. #10
    Ridiculous.
    No, he is completely right. The community was constantly complaining that patches took too long and that Relic should just forget QA.

  11. #11
    Member scoiatollo's Avatar
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    The community was constantly complaining that patches took too long and that Relic should just forget QA.
    I may be mistaken, but 2.2 did receive QA and yet the outcome is (to put it simple) crap!

    You are right that most of the community cried for a patch, but that shouldn't affect GMP! It's not as if in any other game people are not crying desperately for patches...
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  12. #12
    Member BoDyBaG2224's Avatar
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    How long was it in QA? Less then a week I think. And everyone here acts as if bugs are so obvious to detect. Well if so, howcome the sniper in the church wasn't "discoverd" well into (2.102?)'s release.

  13. #13
    Daton, it's ok. We know you admire Relic greatly - everyone can see that. I too think that they are a wonderful, innovative company producing unparalleled software for enthusiasts, and in all probability are a great bunch of people too.

    They appear to have dropped the ball here though.

  14. #14
    Relic continuously screws stuff up and takes their time to fix it.

  15. #15
    They appear to have dropped the ball here though.
    Because you people wanted to have the ball faster.

  16. #16
    EA's BF2 was worse. They had the whole "roll back to a previous version" long before.

    And secondly, your entire post is effectively useless since Relic doesn't do the QA.
    THQ does.
    So you're saying that since EA is so good to everyone, it's OK if anyone else does it? Where are your quality standards? Thank God not everyone feels the same - though apparently THQ does.

    I've said it before countless times on this forum alone, but there is absolutely ZERO excuse for releasing shitty software/patchware. This is yet ANOTHER example of many lately for Relic - frankly, I'm losing my patience, and I have a lot of patience, believe me. It's as much Relic's fault as it is THQ's. It's their game, their baby that they labored years for. None else.

    So, for those taking notes, how do you fuck up a great game? You do exactly what Chengle posted above. I completely agree and I think it's downright criminal to pervert such an experience.

  17. #17
    Member BoDyBaG2224's Avatar
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    I agree that it is a mess up, but you can't expect perfection 100% of the time. It just is not possible.

  18. #18
    Member Nintendochamp's Avatar
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    I'm a game programmer( well at least in school to be one) and I can say mistakes happen often. It could be the smallest of mistakes in the code and yet be completely devastating to the game. I do feel sorry for them, HOWEVER, I do think that Relic/THQ was unprofessional in this situation. They had time to test this patch and yet they manage to screw up like this. Even an amatuer like me wouldn't send someone a copy of my game without seeing if it at least works.

    Don't get me wrong. I'm not mad at Relic or anything just dissappointed in them.

    Good thing I didn't download the patch

  19. #19
    gaping_maw
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    what a ridiculous statement Daton.. patches have to be timely and workable. Having a patch that is only one of those things is not acceptable. Relic knows this, we all know this. If you wait to long to patch, the community withers, if you release shoddy stuff, it makes everyone angry.

    Relic have managed to tarnish (not ruin, just tarnish IMHO) their reputation with the continual issues that have plagued the OF release. broken australian release version, patch issues, the idiotic CD check system, the server issues (yes I know they don't do that, but they paid for the service and should have service gaurantees). Something has gone wrong with Relic....

  20. #20
    Member scoiatollo's Avatar
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    No idea how long it really was, but that doesn't matter since something major seem to gotten wrong this time. Something that QA should have tested for (not autoinstalling shouldn't be that hard to detect i.e.) but yet failed to do so.

    On a side note, DC1.2 took 6month (!!!) and yet there is still a no brainer list that could be covered with 2 or more patches....

  21. #21
    Member Busby's Avatar
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    I don't understand how you can be any more professional then Relic is after making a (large) mistake, what do you want from them, blood to offset the need to reinstall the game and re-patch? If you have ever even modded a game, you should know that a single missed letter, space, or capitalization can possibly send the whole project screaming out of the sky in a flaming wreck, and last time I checked making mistakes is only human.

  22. #22
    Member drChengele's Avatar
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    They are minor mistakes in a job where thousands of potential mistakes are prevented daily. Grow the hell up, accept that these things happen and above all accept that you don't work for a major gaming software company and know jack all about making computer games.
    I take offense to your tone. I state my honest concern about how Relic, my favourite game developer, has lax standards lately, and in return I get insults and flames from you?

    Also, as luck would have it,I have made and/or participated in the making of four computer games already. They are certainly not AAA titles, but I daresay I know a bit more about making computer games than most people. You can PM me for details and/or verification.
    The community was constantly complaining that patches took too long and that Relic should just forget QA.
    This would be the perfect argument, if it wasn't for the fact that this patch still went through weeks of Q&A regardless of what the community was constantly complaining about. So they went through the full QA process and still botched up.

  23. #23
    gaping_maw
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    they need to fix their internal systems.. hopefully they have identified that there is a problem and are working to fix it (whether that means hiring or firing, or simply improving procedures).

  24. #24
    what a ridiculous statement Daton.. patches have to be timely and workable.
    Patches have to be nothing. You are getting them for free. You are entitled to squat.
    I've said it before countless times on this forum alone, but there is absolutely ZERO excuse for releasing shitty software/patchware. This is yet ANOTHER example of many lately for Relic - frankly, I'm losing my patience, and I have a lot of patience, believe me.
    Then start paying monthly. Unless you do, you have zero basis to complain.

  25. #25
    Member BoDyBaG2224's Avatar
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    @Chengele

    2.2 was in QA for about a week and a half.

    We wanted a faster patch and we got it, it just doesn't quite work.

  26. Company of Heroes Senior Member  #26
    "I may be mistaken, but 2.2 did receive QA and yet the outcome is (to put it simple) crap! "
    And when exactly did you play 2.2 good sir. I believe the Installer was FUBAR. No one has seen the actual gameplay side of 2.2 but I have heard good things about the Patch notes.

    Let's keep things in there proper place please. That is how possibly good threads get turned in BS threads.

  27. #27
    Member drChengele's Avatar
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    I agree that it is a mess up, but you can't expect perfection 100% of the time.
    While I agree with this statement, I didn't say that I want every single patch to be 100% perfect. But it would be nice if occasionally two in a row aren't.

    The stance of the majority of people on this topic is "mistakes happen". Hey, that is exactly my point: mistakes do happen, to err is human, and Relic are human after all.

    However, my disappointment, and concern, come from the number and consistency of Relic's mistakes.
    I don't understand how you can be any more professional then Relic is after making a (large) mistake
    I think there is no need for me to dispute this. They are handling the problem well, but it's a problem they caused. Also, this is not about the 2.200 issue. It's about Relic's lackluster patching quality in general. 2.200 is just another in a string of mistakes.

  28. #28
    It is a rant thread... and its now locked.

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