It used to be fun mircoing my tanks to take cover behind my enemies tanks, now i get WTF pwned by a shreck going through their own tanks.
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It used to be fun mircoing my tanks to take cover behind my enemies tanks, now i get WTF pwned by a shreck going through their own tanks.
Because it was obnoxious.
because it sucked having to micro every single of your units so that their line of fire didn't overlap with one of your unit. Plus, who in his right mind would fire at the enemy when a friendly tank is in between you and the target?
it makes sense but i still think one player's own tanks and ATs would be able to hit each others would be more fun
#5
I think the third option would have been far more interesting and realistic, and what I mean is having it so that friendly vehicles block line of sight, thus no bullshit shots through friendly vehicles, and no wtf losing your own vehicles to friendly fire.
It still increases micro a lot. I have no opinion really.
I didn't really notice until this thread .. but now it struck me that I haven't lost a single tank to friendly tank fire in OF. Which is kinda sad, it gave you a good reason to think about placing tanks instead of just blobbing them *giggles*.
I really would like that part back .. or SACSlym's idea of tanks just not firing with a friendly tank in the way, maybe with a slight chance to damage your own tank if he just moved into sight when the other one fires.
The problem is in some of the city maps it is just impossible, and it seems to me the tank AI is worse than ever. I just started playing again, and now the tanks just suicide themselves all the time or they just run into each other.
Maybe cities aren't the best place for tanks?
I believe it was removed to avoid AWM and Bergertiger explotation.
Micoing all my units, OH NOES!
its not about microing really. its about "would someone try to shoot at an enemy THROUGH a friendly tank?". The answer is a resounding no. its simply about believability (NOT realism).
I'm glad the damn FF was taken out. I was getting SEVERELY pissed at the skirmish AI taking out MY tanks with THEIR AT guns.
Originally Posted by Bob Lutz
the FF was deleted because of teh allied war machine i believe. it was being abused
Gamers don't die, they go to the next level
I once experienced a panzerfaust/panzershreck of mine to shoot a Sherman through a structure, not the structure, the projectile just passed throught itself and I was like, "ok, good shot my accurate little krauts".
Agree with earlier poster, hadn't noticed it was gone. Why? That was a really neat part of the game. I mean, it just called for more intelligent placement of your tanks, instead of said blobbing. Rather make the AI not fire through friendly tanks.
Also, it was fun watching a noob enemy stack up his tanks and getting em all fucked up.
But yeah, like the time my ally built like a dozen Flak-88s along the riverline on Vire. As I advanced with my Panzers, they got mashed up by his damn Flaks firing at the enemy infantry next to my Panzer. That was a poor strategic decision, not a poor design decision.
So to cover for a deficiency in scripting AI intelligence they remove FF to compensate? That is pretty damn lame and just took this series into arcade-level game play. And that is pretty freaking disappointing.
well, true but it was kinda g*y when there were american players who used the allied war machine and then shot their low health tanks themselves and would get like 4 brand new shermans for only ? munition.So to cover for a deficiency in scripting AI intelligence they remove FF to compensate? That is pretty damn lame and just took this series into arcade-level game play. And that is pretty freaking disappointing.
Friendly fire was pretty freakign disappointing. I stood up and cheered when they took it out. Was annoying when my sherman would rotate its turret then put one right up my Pershing's poop-chute..it's not like they have ENOUGH problems already..with having armor of paper-mache and a potato-gun for a cannon and all.
Well, it would have been more immersive if it could have been coded to never fire directly on units on the same side and use true line of sight - i.e. I can't fire from A to C because a friendly unit is sitting in B blocking my shot. Taking out FF to remove AWM abuse is really poor for a game that touts using cover, LOS, etc.
I think it's a bummer too. I really like that. RangerX3X has hit the best solution, IMHO, it shouldn't be that hard to script a nofire if targetblock_friendly, or whatever language they use.
-cm
You have to factor player annoyance and micro into the equation.
Tank friendly fire is a major player annoyance, so that's once strike against it.
Then the micro to cause this adds to that annoyance, and really isn't the kind of micro you want to promote in the game. Instead of using good tactics to defeat the enemy, you basically exploit an AI bug.
Also note that tanks are pretty large, simply put, the tanks are so large that even putting in a nofire means that most tanks won't be firing unless you line them up next to each other, which makes them even more vulnerable to strikes.
Tank FF is only a player annoyance when the players in question cannot bear micro them out of it. To me, I got used to it early and started thinking of that all the time. I sort of think it's just as much of an annoyance as, say, distance microing, you know, getting the right range for your weapons. Really, once you get used to it it's just another factor to count in. It also makes tanks less effective when bunched up too much, which could hopefully lead to better tactics in tight spots.
I still micro my tanks to not shoot eachother's asses like gay pornstars but that's because I never really knew the FF was taken out..but man that was a pain in the ass. No, I'm not going to do another gay pornstar metaphor.
I believe it was removed because of Allied War Machine, this seems like the most logical explanation.
I just think it is sad that if I order a tank to fire on an enemy unit that it has to be able to magically fire through another friendly unit if LOF is blocked because the AI is not intelligent enough to simply adjust its position however slightly to obtain a clear LOF to the designated target.
Disabling FF to compensate for bad AI vehicle pathing/attack pathing is a complete cop-out and for whatever reason takes COH into Arcade mode.
i think what he means is why do AT do FF damage on their own tanks but shreks just magically go through.
my thoughts too.So to cover for a deficiency in scripting AI intelligence they remove FF to compensate? That is pretty damn lame and just took this series into arcade-level game play. And that is pretty freaking disappointing.
-in that case they might as well take out rear armor hits, cuz its also pretty annoying to have to micro your tanks facing, or to try to flank a tank. much more convenient just to let it sit there shooting like any other good ol rts.You have to factor player annoyance and micro into the equation.
Tank friendly fire is a major player annoyance, so that's once strike against it.
-also, remove FF from artillery, that's also annoying to have to make sure you have no troops in the barrage area, or having a stray rocket kill one of your own men.
-finally, tanks should also be able to shoot through buildings, ever get annoyed when an enemy tank hides behind a building just when you're about to kill it?
see what i'm getting at? leave the FF in. fix awm some other way. and fix the vehicle AI.
well actually awm (or usa) is ok at the moment.
Last edited by tuffy!; 9th Dec 07 at 5:45 PM.
I thought it was a glitch when someone shrecked through their own tank into my one, it really sucks that it's gone. I want it back. With the allies shitty armor, out-microing your opponent was a great way to make up for the lack of strength. Getting shot in the ass by your own at guns was fine, it only happened if you were sloppy in your planning. I really want this back in the game.
I can't even remember anyone bitching about this in the forums.
Dull..or unless you were playing with skirmish AI..who likes to spam american AT guns. They killed my tanks more times than I can readilly count.
If you want tank friendly Fire then you MUST have a "hold Fire" command.
No hold fire command, no friendly fire.
I don't always want to put all of my tanks in the front. Without friendly fire there is less "annoying micro", but, there are more actual options open to the player- like, using some tanks in the front and some in the back, etc.
Like I said, though. FF would be fine if they gave us a hold-fire command. Also, FF should be blocked (The unit should just not shoot) if the ally unit is within a certain radius (Very close range). Too many times have I seen a shreck guy run up to my own tanks ass, kneel down, and shoot it point-blank.
The tank ai, or any AT ai should have just been made so that if a friendly tank was blocking its line of sight to a target, it either looked for a target eslewhere, or if given a specific target, move to be clear of said friendly tank and then engaged it. simple line of sight. I know this game isnt designed to be realistic, but when fighting everything looks so real (unit designs, explosins and the such) it just makes that realisim disapear when 5 AT gun shots fly through the friendly croc in front of them.
i would love if they brought tank FF back in... i dont mind the extra go sit there and face tht way prolly cause i never rly have more than 2 tanks in one area :P but when your ai allies being a total moron and blocking the escape route of your KT with like a gazillion pumas i thiink FF is necessary. and btw allied war machine now has a max of 2 tanks so its not rly a balance issue
If taking FF out was just because of AWN abuse, why not set it so that only tanks killed by enemy fire would be replace. Also, adding a LOS for tanks would probably make it more strategical in a way.
Not sure if it is directly related, but have you guys noticed that the collision meshes of the vehicles seem to be GREATLY reduced.
Guess to many noobs had trouble driving their uber tankz.
Having reduced collisions was a specific new feature introduced in OF - all part of the "improved vehicle AI." You guys need to stop noob-bashing and realize that just because you like to put up with needless micro and the AWM exploit, others don't. And the developers agreed with the others so...gg.
"Having reduced collisions was a specific new feature introduced in OF - all part of the "improved vehicle AI." You guys need to stop noob-bashing and realize that just because you like to put up with needless micro and the AWM exploit, others don't. And the developers agreed with the others so...gg."
So basically what you're saying is that we should dumb down an entire game because some can't or won't adjust? that's a pretty lame excuse. The game was touted on its reality and such. Now they remove it to make it more "playable" to a larger community. That isn't for your re4ason. That is for money. Whiners complaining about having to think (something most people are too lazy to do nowadays) or use units properly or intelligently screwed it for the ones who do. I personally get my ass handed to me more than not, lately even worse. But I'm trying to figure out my errors. I'm not crying that the game is screwed. It is and we know that but if others can defeat me without using the glitches and bugs then it's up to me to correct my errors and be a better player. I don't want to play a game that all I need to do is throw tons of shit on the field and watch it go. It was nice to have to think about what I was doing and aggravating to watch my errors bite me in my own ass.
That's the point of it being like an arcade game. They are all like that. No cost for your mistakes, no threat of losing the battle because you misused your units. No, let's make the game so stupidly easy any jackass with mouse can play it. That is the problem with removing FF and the game suffers for it. Fix AWM and put FF back in. It served a purpose and served it well
FF was much more strategic and fun, we had to think how to place our stuff and worry about FF, now its just blob...
They should put an option to choose FF on or off in the game host options.
It just sucks that they took it out for everyone, some liked FF, like me
Last edited by AphexBoy; 10th Dec 07 at 1:36 PM.
Taking out FF on tanks is not "dumbing down an entire game." It's fixing an issue in a way that certain people don't like, but others do.
Yeah, they could've made it so that tanks don't shoot when other tanks block LOS. But for all we know, that could require a complete rework of units, since up until now, only terrain and buildings have that attribute.
Yeah, they could've added a Hold Fire button to everything, but that would add even more micro to what is basically a micro issue. It's counterproductive.
But hey, keep talking like everyone who doesn't like FF is a n00b jackass that can barely use a mouse and hates thinking. That'll definitely sway opinions. I'll go back to playing this miserable arcade game and keep blobbing my armor around. Oh wait, there are no armor blobs - those schreks and marders pwned them months ago
friendly fire only happen on calculated misses. If a shot was declared a hit, it doesnt matter what it had to go through it would hit the target, but it if missed, it would hit the first thing in the path. I miss it.
When can we expect the next step changing buildings to No-LOS-blocking?
Seriously, while I admit that friendly fire was stupid and annoying sometimes, removing the LOS-blocking-feature of vehicles is even worse.
A vital tactical element is missing now. Bring it back!
I guess they'll change that when forward HQs grow tank turrets and start shooting their own army
#41
I don't see how friendly fire was realistic. In real life if you don't have a clear shot from you to the target and there is a friendly in the way that you damn well know your going to hit your not going to fire your weapon and destroy the friendly knowing the hostile will just laugh and then blast you next. Tanks only shoot around 40 meters in this game, so they can clearly differentiate between a hostile and a friendly.
You simply do not fire your gun if there is a friendly tank in front of you that your guaranteed to hit no matter what. Why would a soldier standing behind a friendly tank with his Panzershrek fire into the friendly to hit the enemy on the other side? It just doesn't happen.
The only option would be to make it so if your unit doesn't have a clear line of sight and is going to hit a friendly it doesn't fire, but that would be so annoying and like others have said it's pointless micro that isn't fun.
The true mind can weather all the lies and illusions without being lost. The true heart can touch the poison of hatred without being harmed. Since beginning-less time, darkness thrives in the void but always yields to purifying light.
#42
It's not about realism Vintage. It's about strategy.
I always liked the fact that if I wasn't careful with the position of my units it could come back and bite me in the ass. I also always liked how I could simply outplay my opponent by micro'ing the tanks he was shooting at to the other side of his own tanks, thus using my skill at the game to level what ordinarily may have been an uneven playing field.
You could always look at it from the point of view that Friendly Fire helped prevent tank blobs, so, by virtue of the fact that blobs are now baby-eating satan incarnate, they should put it back in, so that tank blobbing can never happen.
I lose enough things to crazed trigger happy allies annihilating my forces with V1's and artillery, we dont need friendly fire adding to this lol.
One game my allie actually got confused as to who the enemy was and v1'ed my base! :O
#44
It is a "no win" with Arty.
Ping the Map.
Type in "Arty here" and then your teammate just sits there to die and then calls you a "Stupid Prick".
How about moving the 3 small paces to the left of the Ping point ffs.
How about make it so you can't target your own or friendly Allied Tanks and thus no AWM abuse. Either put in FF for all units or take it out for all units. Selective FF is BS.
You can't attack your own tanks, or your allies' tanks. You would Attack Ground on dying tanks and kill them "by accident" and trigger AWM.How about make it so you can't target your own or friendly Allied Tanks and thus no AWM abuse. Either put in FF for all units or take it out for all units. Selective FF is BS.
taking out ff just promotes blobbing even more
Aerundel, how can you say taking out ff does not dumb down the game? You must be insane. The game was designed to revolve around your skill at using your units. It was not meant to be a game designed around massing an army and setting it free. Hence the extremely long list of posts regarding people spamming inf and the need to correct it. Now, without FF, you can spam any damn thing you like without consequences of your own stupidity.
that's right, I said your own stupidity. If your too lazy to micro your units into proper position then you deserve to be slaughtered. Instead you just want to blob your way to victory. that takes so much talent I am complete amazed at your God-like wisdom. Like I said, any idiot can build a blob and let it go. Taking that blob and using it strategically takes talent, skill and forethought.
Without FF you remove all skill, thus dumbing down the entire game, the outcome of which is now tank blobs as well as spamfantry
i agree with general tsao's chicken. coh is about micro, and less so about "macro". microing your units such as flanking and positioning is what its about.
like i said before, if you want to make things simpler, then remove ff from arty, remove LoS from buildings, and remove rear armor.
As a bonus, lets let mg teams rotate 360 degrees without redeploying. that'll make it much more convenient too, no need to micro it when riflemen are trying to flank it.
I totally agree herei agree with general tsao's chicken. coh is about micro, and less so about "macro". microing your units such as flanking and positioning is what its about.
It seems that ppl tend to forget what CoH was all about.
Its like turning slowly into yet another rts... c&c etc...
Wtf are you talking about Tsaos? How did this thread turn into FF in general? I was specifically talking about tanks and the fact that they'd hit each other if they were in line, a lot. You said it was dumbing down the "entire game", and I disagreed. However, if you're talking FF off on everything, then I would agree you.
BUT FF IS STILL ON A LOT OF STUFF. Maybe if you would stick to what the thread is asking, we wouldn't have this misunderstanding.
We're talking a group of units that have had chronic micro problems due to their size and speed - tanks.
And I have no problem microing my tanks to avoid each other's line of sight, since doing so usually prevents incoming AT from scattering into my group of vehicles as a side effect.
Again, I don't know why the hell anyone's worried about tank blobbing since it doesn't even work in the game's current incarnation. Too much infantry AT to worry about.
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