How to play Vaygr well

[WunderGoat]

After seeing so many posts and threads flaming Vaygr as an underpowered race, I felt that it was neccesary to create a thread where the uneducated and misinformed might learn a bit about this misunderstood race.

Primarily I would like any Vaygr players to post their strategies and observations on playing Vaygr and tips on defeating some of the more difficult/dangerous threats to Vaygr (i.e. battlecruisers, gunships, flak, ect.)

Unfortunately its late, so i'll just jot down observations for now and write about tactics later.

Observations:
1) Vaygr teching is much different from Hiig teching, but suits the Vaygr philosphy/play style better. This may confuse Hiig players into thiking that the Vaygr system is worse.

2) Vaygr carriers are cheaper by around 40-50% than their Hiig conterparts. This means that you can have greater production/resourcing earlier in the game and thus better use your early game strengths. The lack of multiple production slots is the price you pay

3) Vaygr strike craft are exceptional when properly mixed. They tend to suck bad when not. (i.e. lances can get hurt bad when soloing gunships. In a big, messy dogfight, they cut gunships down like corn). You also have more slots for said strike craft.

4) Since they do not need to get the advanced research module, vaygr can get destroyers faster. Their destroyers also have a more powerful "first strike" thanks to thier massive missile volley.

5) More strike craft per group means more squads make it home to get repairs. As you also have more carriers, you can repair far faster than a hiig frigate fleet. Also, i have noticed that vette squads tend to split into pairs. This makes it less likely that torp frigs/pulsars will kill of an entire squadron (unless told to kill a specific squade, but that brings up other problems)

6) Vaygr BC has better "first strike" capability than the Hiig BC, making it more effective as a hyper-raider

7) Innacuracy of various strike craft is either moot, non-existant, or eaily fixable. ACs miss a whole lot, true. But they also come 2 more to a group and tend to spray the entire enemy squadron. Lance fighters are dead accurate msot of the time, as the shoot only at pointblank range. Laser vettes and bombers hit subsystems and anything bigger than a frig just fine. I don;t know about MCs, as i tend to focus on laser vettes in my swarm.

8) CCs make a huge difference and i haven't had trouble keeping them alive when i set them to gaurd my ACs (the big sweeping passes of ACs means that the CC moves a whole lot) i also believe that ship AI does not recognize CCs as immidiate targets and focuses on ships with guns.

9) Hyper gates are incredibly useful. With disruption probes, they make for excellent sneak attacks/ raiding bases. Send some of your prolific carriers to these bases, and you are even mroe dangerous (note: carriers can't use the gate).

Thats all for now, my personal strategies/tactics will follow tommorow afternoon

[Sandalpocalypse]

All good points.

I would add--

You minimize the disadvantages if you move in close.

Heavy Missile Frigates are BRUTAL.

In the end, upgraded Vaygr ships are just better.

Laser Corvettes are your friend, but Missile corvettes are the most general purpose strikecraft in the game.

[WunderGoat]

Just a few of my tactics for the swarm strat:

1) Start by making loads ACs followed by Lances. Lances have trouble with vettes alone, but in the thick of things they rock. Then make laser vettes out of your next 2 carriers. You should have lots of vettes in no time at all. When this is done, now you raid some choice targets.
a) Attack his staging ground. If you can kill off his fleet, he won;t be able to react quickly. You can then run back and heal up and then attack RU spots unimpeded. This is also not expected and may allow you a quick win with an attack on the mothership.
b) kill some RU ops. The swarm has excellent speed and later on is even faster with hyper gates. Kill carrier first, refiernies second, collectors third. This way you slow him down the maximum possile amount.
c) go mod hunting on his MS and/or shipyard. Attack with your swarm and micro your laser vettes to shoot off his expensive modules. Adv. research module, gravwells, and cap ship facilites are primary targets.
d) a full swarm of 11 ACs, 7 lances, and 10-12 laser vettes will take down a mothership easily. If your opponent is not protecting himself well, kill him right off the bat. (Note: some players prefer to keep thier strike craft in carriers. Try and see if it looks like he's rigged for making strike craft (i.e. look at his modules) If he is and you feel confident, kill the carriers first. Otherwise, hit and fade on his resource op)
I like to stick all my swarm in one strike group, and them assign the compnent ships to individual subgroups. This way i can band-box attack a fleet and they go for what they are best against. I can also use the laser vettes to micro kill dangerous/juicy targets such as carriers and flaks.
Teching is also a good strategy with Vaygr. With only a research module you can tech all theway to lvl 2 cheaply. I believe fighter speed lvl 2 can be gained for under 1600 and is well worth it.

A note to other posters, plase stick anything you think is useful down. Critique these tactics. The point for this thread is to try and make some really good tactics for vaygr players.

[The5thElephant]

Really excellent points. This could help me out a lot.

[Tirinal]

The only problem I have with Vaygr is their upgrade tree. As the specialized race it makes no sense for them to have to pay for ALL of the upgrades in any given class. Moreover, in HW2 you are far more likely to only focus on one unit per level since by spreading your forces out over multiple tiers you can have more of them because of the way unit limits are structured. I hate it, its the one reason I don't play Vaygr. That, and the fact that Higarians get hyperspace upgrades, which come in very very handy and make for better hit n' run tactics than the weak, immobile hypergates do.

By the way, does anyone know if the Vaygr frigate upgrades also enhance the Infiltrator Frigate? Just curious.

[WunderGoat]

The group upgrades increase all units in a class, including scouts and infiltrators.
As for the tech tree, you only pay to tech the units you need (250 for lance, 400 for MC, 400 for laser). The big place where cost go down are in the group upgrades. It is comparitvly cheap to fully upgrade any class compared to hiig. Yes, it seems odd for a specialist race to have the universal upgrade, but it is nearly as cheap for vaygr to up a class as it is for hiig to up a single type of unit. Once you get used to it, you realize its a huge advantage.
Hiig has flexibility in the fast access to all units, vaygr has specialization in its quick teching. Not to mention that vaygr upgrades give more to your units.
Gates are absolutely dirt-cheap hyperspacing at only 2500 for an infinite use corridor.
With vaygr you can;t make a bit of everything right away, as hiig can. Focus on a cetain type of ship early and get the upgrades (i.e. AC, lances, lvl 2 speed). I think this is one area where hiig players have trouble adapting.

[Tirinal]

Although you do save overall with Vaygr upgrades as opposed to Higarian if you upgrade everything, most eveyone does not. Assault frigates are generally crap, as are missle corvettes. If I want to increase the efficiency of my heavy missle frigates or lance corvettes, however, I have to pay to upgrade the other units as well.

As for the hyperspace gates, I must disagree with you. Although they work fine in theory, in actual multiplayer matches they are far too fragile to be used efficiently. Even with disruptor probes it is very easy to figure out if someone has a hyperspace gate nearby, at which point you simply send in the bombers which destroy it in one wave. Thats 1750 down the drain. As Higarian you can warp in a carrier filled with strike craft for far less due to their hyperspace upgrades. This works even better than gates since you have a resupply/repair center nearby for your strike craft when they harass the enemy.

[tigrali]

i disagree with you about the hyperspace gates. they work very well, you just need to place them in not so obvious spots if used for offensive means, or if my carriers and ms are spread out really far, i use the gates as a way to quickly reinforce whoever is being attacked (my carriers or my ms). And yes, I've done this a few times successfully during multiplayer, though i must admit i forget about researching the gates sometimes

[Sandalpocalypse]

Big advantages of gate is that you can gate back home if you really need to, you don't need to keep your strikecraft locked in the carrier, and that you can transport Frigates and Destroyers

[Tirinal]

Well, okay. But one wave of bomber fire will take down a gate. Since you can't kill the bombers before they kill the gate, your only chance of keeping the thing alive is to keep it hidden--which lasts all of 2 seconds when I decide to use ping. The cost of ping is well worth it even if I only kill one gate (1000 vs. 1750), especially since there is always a chance I'll kill it before all the frigates manage to warp, in which case they are as good as dead. Using a hyperspace gate is very risky, and more often than not a good player will nullify the benefits of the thing before you get any real usage out of it.

[Seb00]

The main purpose of gates, in my opinion, is to get Destroyers to the front line as quick as the rest of the ridiculously fast Vaygr forces. I use it as more of a super-rally point than much else, between carriers and my flagship and MAYBE a shipyard if I even have one. Sometimes it's really worth it to be able to move those big slow pieces of crap, especially when you just lost a bunch of laser corvettes to a blitz of pulsars (which is something another good player will try to do if you split your forces and stay attacking different objectives constantly, like the Vaygr are built for in my opinion) .

When I play Vaygr, I go for double fighter facilites to just get the enemy on the defensive. Once he's on defense and I'm on offense, the game is half over. Don't kill yourself trying to get high level ships, but be sure to get to Lance fighters and at least at SOME point get to laser corvettes - gunships will kill your ACs in the beginning, then Flak will do so also, so you always have to stay 2 steps ahead of your opponent. At least have the options RESEARCHED because if you don't it'll take forever for the slow Vaygr tech tree to give you those options.

The largest ship I make as Vaygr is the Destroyer, and I really hardly make them. I think that once the Vaygr player is on offense and the Hiigaran player on defense, the Vaygr player can stop the Hiig player from getting large fleets of capships (gogo bomber run!!:flamer unless there is a large descrepancy between the skill levels of the two players in question.

Also, and important thing to do is get a second carrier semi-early (depends how well your fighters are doing) . That's insanely important-- you NEED to outnumber the enemy. It's also important to USE your carriers in attacks. Yeah, yeah, Vaygr fighters have worse eyesight than slanty asian people (hey I'm korean so I'm allowed to say it :tongue but don't go through all the bother of researching and getting a Command Corvette -- just build a fire control tower on your carrier! Plus, you can constantly be docking fighters left and right, which is a HUGE benefit especially with the large squads that Vaygr have. Remember not to tell more than 3 or 4 squads to dock at once though -- they'll crowd each other and be sitting ducks. Instead of docking fighters in "chunks", try to constantly be telling 1 squad to dock, maybe every 6 or 7 seconds (depending, of course, on the circumstances of the battle) .

NEVER use bombers in your main attack fleet unless your opponent has SOMEHOW got a battlecruiser-- always send your bombers above or around to the enemy production ships while you're fighting his fleet. This takes timing and planning, but it can easily set the enemy back if you kill research and a capship fac on his shipyard (see what I mean? just don't let him get bc's!) ... the only way to fight that off is with great scouting and good control of fighters (which many people don't have) or , basically, platforms. And if you've made him build defensive (NOT OFFENSIVE) platforms, in my experience, the game is over. Bring in your lasers.

In a 2-player or 4-player map, the Vaygr player shouldn't have altogther too much of a problem winning against a decent Hiigaran player. At least not as much trouble as people on this forum make it out to be (I admit- I was one of them before ) .

My points:
Don't go out of your way for big ships
Dual fighter fac rush!! unless the map is too big
Always research craft 2 steps ahead; don't let him counter you
Use bombers on enemy subsystems, not in battle
Use carriers extensively
Make him fear the swarm!!

[Tirinal]

Why not just warp the destroyer in instead of relying on hyperspace gates?

I agree with the rest of the points though. Thats really how Vaygr are meant to be played.

[Tholith]

The Gate will pay for itself, saving ur harversters, moving your troops around and save a butt load of cash moving those destroyers back and forth, which can be used for building another destroyer!

[Psycho-SoniC]

I found Vaygr fighters MUCH more usefull than their Hiigaran counterparts. This for reasons:

- Ability to switch to corvette-countering Lancers
- Availability to upgrade to lvl 2 fighter engines right of the start

This allows good flexibility in early game. Especially as your bombers with lvl 2 engines are very fast and can outrun even interceptors chasing them.

[WunderGoat]

Indeed, and don't forget that vaygr scouts get the speed upgrade, too (at least i think so) Sure, they don't have sensor ping, but can you think of a better EMP raider? Just knock out collectors and run away home.

[ZetaZhan]

Am i wrong? I thought destroyers couldnt use hypergates??

am i wrong?/

[jinpachi]

wow - best strat thread so far

[Tholith]

ZetaZhan

Your WRONG, they can use Gates.

[Mandorallen]

Yupp gates = Dessie tunnels

[crobato]

I'm trying to learn Vagyr strats. Bump the thread up for more people to get attention and add their thoughts.

[GIMPbeowulf]

One of the most powerful units the vaygr have is the laser vette... those things will tear through frigates, platforms, workers, and all sorts of that kind of thing with great efficiency. A horde of assault craft also make for a nice raiding party with surprising firepower for a non-specialized base level unit. 10 groups or so can bring down a working quite quickly.

Personally, what I like to do is skip frigates until after destroyers. While heavy missile frigates absolutely rock (much better than ions, IMO) a destroyer does basicly the same thing and is more convenient to get to. If you want frigates you need to research the chasis for a grand and then make the module for another grand. For destroyers you just research it for 2 grand... same price but faster. You already need the supercap fascility since you want more carriers so that's not really a consideration. What I usually end up doing is getting fighters up and going then some carriers and laser vettes come out at the same time. Once I've built a carrier or two I'll build destroyers and carriers alternating as needed and use a carrier to make the shipyard.

It just seems to me like frigates are out of the way and chances are you aren't going to have lots of strike craft problems with such a swarm of your own so assault frigs probably aren't high on your list of priorities and since destroyers are just about as fast (and more convenient) than the missile frigs, no real reason to build them either.

[GUTB]

Alright. Time for the nightly round of Facts:

1. Assault Crafts have crap accuracy. FACT.

2. Pulsars > Missile and Laser. FACT.

3. Vaygr carriers SUCK because they have only one ship type facility, which is NOT ENOUGH for this game. FACT.

4. Hypergates are useless in MP, and lets get real we all know it. FACT.

5. Hiigaran tech up faster and cheaper. FACT.

[GIMPbeowulf]

Originally posted by GUTB
Alright. Time for the nightly round of Facts:

1. Assault Crafts have crap accuracy. FACT.

2. Pulsars > Missile and Laser. FACT.

3. Vaygr carriers SUCK because they have only one ship type facility, which is NOT ENOUGH for this game. FACT.

4. Hypergates are useless in MP, and lets get real we all know it. FACT.

5. Hiigaran tech up faster and cheaper. FACT.

Haha... let's see...

1. Assault craft beat interceptors 1v1 and kill other things faster becaue of greater numbers and thus more firepower. FACT.

2. Lasers do a ton more damage to workers frigs and up than pulsars. FACT.

3. Vaygr carriers are a lot cheaper, build much faster, and you get more of them meaning you can increase your production much faster and farther. FACT.

4. Usually this is true but from time to time they're convenient.

5. Vaygr can get destroyers real fast and don't require an advanced research module. Hiigarans actually have more things to research because you must do speed and armor for each unit. This does allow specialization which is nice tho.

[ArchonXVI]

Wow, half your facts are wrong. Lasers kill caps and frigs far, far, far faster than any other corvette. Missiles will kill pulsars if both are upgraded fully. Assault Craft have poor accuracy, but when you fire 2x as many shots, it all works out. Vaygr carriers are 1000 cheaper, though they are worse. Hypergates are rarely useful. Higarians tech up single things faster, though if you want to focus on corvettes, (like I do) vagyr are /much/ faster and cheaper.

[WunderGoat]

First of all, go to the clan SITH stat page (look at the stat thread) under special to see thier tests on unit vs unit. And a thing on teching. Using the info on the SITH page, Vaygr grouptech is equal to 2 hiig single tech in the same class in the following classes: fighters, frigate speed, and frigate lvl 2 armor. It is 100 over higgy price for frigate lvl 1 armor. It is over a thousand over on armor and speed for capships, when compared to higgy BC and DD upgrades. Vette upgrades on average are over by about 100 or so, but the upgrades are far better. When calculated out, higgy lvl 2 speed for 2 vettes is about 3 RU cheaper per point of speed boost, but is .05 below (1.35 vs 1.4). On armor vaygr is 50RU more efficient for lvl 2 than hiig, but is a full .4 better (1.6 to 2, lvl 1 is 1.3 to 1.5). Methods for calcualting cost per point was (total cost/total multiplier).

Arguing facts and numbers is not fun, lets keep this on Vaygr STRATS, not "Bash Vaygr" If you have an idea, post it. If you think an idea is bad, post a better one. Simple enough. All you prove by bashing posts is that
a) You are a noob or are not very perceptive
b) You really don't care and have no buisiness posting
c) You are not intellectualy competant enough to think in abstract terms such as "strategy" and are limited to simple power comparisons like "BC > DD".

Lets not have any more meaningless arguments.

[Miguel]

Lancers have more bang for your buck than any other ship in the game.

[32bit]

GUTB have you even played as the Vaygr? your points are mostly wrong.

1) This is balanced out by the fact that the Vaygr have a) command corvettes and b) have more fighters per squadron than the hiigarans

2) not really, laser corvettes are not designed for the anti-corvette role, and it really doesnt matter if the Pulsar has an advantage over the missile corvette, because the Vaygr have a more diverse range of anti-corvette ships.

3) Low in hp they may be but I find it funny when you spend 2800 RUs on a carrier, plus another 2800 to get it up and running with all the various subsystems, and then my laser corvettes snuff it out. On the other hand, i have a cheap 1800 RU carrier, with another 1000 spent on various subsystems. FACT

On top of that, if you've noticed, you can build ONE unit at a time from production capable ships. You've got 4 production slots on your carrier, with only 1 of them being used. I can do exactly the same thing, except I dont have to fork out over 4000 rus to get a fully upgraded carrier. I can also afford to spread out my production ships a little.

4) No.... just.. no.

5) In some circumstances, yes, but I would like to c you get a Hiigaran destroyer out faster than a Vaygr one, and upgrade every single subgroup of ship in a class (i.e fighters, capital ships) at the same time.

Seriously, go out and play as the Vaygr... more than a few times.

[WunderGoat]

Just hammering out some more numbers:
A swarm of 11 ACs, 7 Lances, 2 Missile vettes and 10 Laser vettes, with lvl 2 ftr speed and lvl 1 vette armor and speed, including all other techs to get these units excluding module cost is 21,350 RU. Keep in mind that this swarm will crush a ms is under a minute and will kill destroyers, frigates, and even vettes with little or no trouble. According to resourcer fill loads, this is a mere 106 loads worth (colletors make a load every 50 seconds, assuming equal load and dropoff times). As most players make at least 10 collectors, this swarm should be reached in about the same time it takes for most players to rush a BC out of production. Also remember that with more that 10 collectors this time will decrease rather drasticly.

I know the creation of a swarm like this is not likely to occur in MP, but its a good reference point.

[32bit]

Oh yeh... the only problem I have with the Vaygr is their lack of a counter or even an equivalent to Hiigaran ping.

[Timeless]

I form a swarm complete with EMP, Interceptors, Lance fighters, 4 missle vettes and laser vettes in every game I play--at least for now, as I enjoy this build very much atm. Heavy missle frigs own when your swarm is eating up enemy strike craft opposition and tearing up destroyers, flaks, torpedo frigs and whatever else that gets in its way. I'm exploring all types of builds right now and have been purposely limiting myself to nothing larger than frigates in 1on1s and in my team games, my allies take care of fielding the destroyers and BCs. Even if they don't make any BCs and the enemy does, the swarm has no problem disabling the BCs engines, hyperspace module and ion turret. Your heavy missle frigates will quickly dispatch enemy production ships, other frigates, harvesters, you name it. Of course, stopping at frigates is not necessary, only something I'm doing for a few games to see how powerful frigates and swarms can be even against destroyers and BCs should you not be able to field them yourself.


Timeless_OMO

[GUTB]

You people are actually trying to argue that Vaygr matches up or is even supperior?

Bull.

Yes there are a lot of ACs in a squad...so it looks even dumber when you see all these ACs shooting at one Int, and MISSING COMPLETELY for the ENTIRE PASS. This happens regularily. It is annoying as hell to sit and wait and wait and WAIT for these things to hurry up and kill the bombers that are swarming my units. On the other hand, Ints cut through Vagyr bombers and ACs with little trouble.

Torp frigs RAPE vets -- yes, laser vets too. This is because in a realistic combat scenario, the vets are engaged in a furball with other enemies, with the torps sitting back taking plinking your vets like they are nothing. Vaygr has nothing that does the same to vets -- FACT.

Yes Vaygr carriers are cheap, and YES THEY SUCK. It is a huge pain to have to bring in re-enforcments from the ms or another carrier just because they can only pump out one ship type at a time. I will grant that they do have a quick resource drop-off, but that hardly makes them better than the Hiig unit. FACT.

Command vets are USELESS because they always die moments after entering combat. Am I supposed to micromanage them throught the battle in order to keep them alive by taking advantage of flawed AI routines? Screw it, they are just useless (somewhat like marine frigs, except moreso).

The only units that I can think of that are clearly more powerful than Hiig counterparts are the heavy missile frigs and lancers (but only because there is no hiig unit like it). Yes the BC is very powerful but it is so easy to disable its just a joke.

[Timeless]

ROFL.

Man, you just have to play the races differently, that is all. I have used Vaygr almost exclusively since the game came out and have lost only one or two games. Our fighters have better armor when upgraded fully than those of the Hiigaran fleet, are more numerous in their squads and we are allowed to build 4 more squads of strike craft. My early swarm build includes EMP and a an extra carrier before the 9 minute mark so I can produce ships even faster. Initially, the emp blasts negate any accuracy issues, allowing my passing fighters to annihilate my opponent's strike craft in but a few passes. These EMP scouts are escorted by no less than 4 early assault craft and as many lance fighters as you can muster. Lance fighters are only average vs enemy strike craft, but excel greatly at eliminating corvettes and subsystems--with EMP, however, lance fighters easily rape enemy interceptors and bombers as well. While this is happening, the second carrier pops out and you can now build two corvette facilities--one on the mothership, one on the new carrier. I usually make 2 to 4 missle corvs, then switch to laser vettes. Once a full force of vettes has been fielded, mixed with all of your strike craft, you can either go for frigs, destroyers or for a shipyard/BC. Currently, I prefer going heavy missle frigs at this stage as they absolutely maul other frigates, production ships, workers, etc. The swarm, with EMP, fighters, corvs, judiscious use of fire control platforms and/or commander corvs will eat up enemy frigates--whether they be flaks or torpedo frigates, it doesn't make a difference. It will also, obviously, protect your frigates from enemy strike craft or platforms...not to mention a swarm's mobility.

This is, in a nutshell, how I currently play Vaygr. I switch it up a bit, but wanted to give just one example. Once you get the Vaygr tech tree and timing down, you'll realize how powerful they can be. Since I'm not having a difficult time winning matches playing as Vaygr, it leads me to believe that you have not fully explored this race's potential or just generally don't know what you are doing.

Oh, and though Vaygr carriers can only produce from one facitlity bay at a time, their carriers produce more quickly and at like half the cost--getting a second carrier early is a cake-walk. Within minutes, you can be fielding ships from a fighter bay and two corv facilities. Also, the Vaygr fighter tree allows for counters in several catagories, therefore potentially allowing a person, should they choose to do so, to effectively counter almost everything thrown at him or her early game using ONLY FIGHTERS. In fact, using EMP, one could easily disable several Flak frigs, for example, and mop them up using bombers and lance fighters. This advantage alone, namely the ability to counter corvettes using the lance fighter, makes up for the lack of additional bays on the Vaygr carrier.

As a last note, if your command corvettes are dying before you have gained an advantage from them, you are doing something horribly wrong. Mine survive well enough all the time.


Timeless_OMO

[AngryAndroid]

Tempest I was very interested to see what you had to say about frigates in your previouse post (page 2). Although its only been a few days, I'm slightly frustrated at my complete inability to make frigates survive longer than just a few minutes against a comparably sized strike group. This is against any level AI where the strike group has a DD in it.

Although I'm actualy finding winning these engagments relatively easy, my strike craft and DD's own their counterparts giving me victory after victory.

What I do right now is have either my fighters or capital ships at the front with the frigates adding anti capital/corvet/fighter support. But the enemy destroyer(s) target the friagtes first, although the destroyer(s) will be dying quite badly while this goes on, those frigates just appear to be expensive cannon fodder.

What if any advice can you give?

Cheers, AA

[32bit]

I agree with Tempest. There are counters to almost everything in this game, its just a matter of knowing where and when to use them.

[monco]

i don't know about you guys but HS gates are the only thing that keep me alive and in the running. i usually have one carrier in the middle resource patch with 10 resource collectors and 2 refineries, granted they're protected with plats but those just slow down a massive assault. the moment i see the enemy send a huge strike force to my weak vulnerable resource collection patch i hyper in some fighters, and slow them down while my resource collectors get as much cash as they can, then when the situation is bleak, instead of losing everything, all my collectors and refineries hyper using the gate, while the assault craft tear as much ass then hyper out and the carrier, well that's the only thing that might not make it back.

i repeat this tactic successfully, especially later in the game, i assault a lightly defended resource patch install a HS gate, hyper in everything i need, and wait for the enemy to send all his BC's & destroyers then escape.

note on the carrier, you have to play with what modules you'll build and scuttle when the action starts, sometimes it better to have 2 carriers, one to hyper both in/out, and another for the gravwell generator.

[Mikk]

Damnit people you are making me scared of the vaygr even before I see them in action ingame at all... gotta figure out how to kick ya ass damnit

[Tirinal]

I more or less agree with everything Tempest said. Good post.

One thing though: would you mind terribly explaining to me how exactly it is that Lance Fighters are good against capital ship subsystems? I know the manual says they are, but if you try it out you'll find that they are horrendous at it. I just ran some tests against an easy AI and it turns out that Assault Craft are almost as good at destroying modules as Lance Fighters are.

[Timeless]

Well, I typically don't produce bombers as they weaken certain aspects of my fighter swarm and laser vettes fill this role nicely enough. I only start targeting subsystems once my swarm has grown a bit so perhaps it is the mass number of strike craft and not the lances themselves. It's obvious that of all the fighters, bombers are the best suited for stripping subsystems but my current build/fighting style leaves little room for them.

[Freakshow]

in late game, the vaygr BC is just better then the higgy one if you can keep pesky bombers away from your engines

[Cyrai]

That may be, but the Vagyr players should be doing everything possible to stop you from getting a BC at all. If you're playing against a good Vagyr, you'ld be hard pressed to get one.

[GIMPbeowulf]

I agree with you about the unit caps preventing bombers from being built. However, if someone isn't making corvettes then you don't need lances and then bombers aren't a bad choice. In single player I constantly had all my fighter slots filled with bombers but in multi with vaygr I like to keep my fighters versatile and that means assault craft with a few lances... laser vettes are for packing the punch--and oh boy do they do that.

[Timeless]

Originally posted by AngryAndroid
Tempest I was very interested to see what you had to say about frigates in your previouse post (page 2). Although its only been a few days, I'm slightly frustrated at my complete inability to make frigates survive longer than just a few minutes against a comparably sized strike group. This is against any level AI where the strike group has a DD in it.

What if any advice can you give?

Cheers, AA

*Use Infiltrator frigates (2 to 4 of them) to lead your attacks, if you can, to steal the enemy destroyers. Every once in a while, you might get away with their destroyer, but they will always take enemy fire for your heavy missle frigates, allowing them just enough precious time to plow through the heaviest hitters of the enemy fleet.

*Make an early carrier so you can field frigates from two production facilities early on. By about 8 or 9 minutes, your second carrier should be complete and your fighter/corv swarm should be a rather significant force--whether faced with early skirmishes or not. While the enemy can get to destroyers quickly, he can produce only one at a time until an expensive shipyard is constructed. When using frigates, make sure to use them in force.

*Map control and scouting is key. Ideally, it is best to use your frigates where enemy destroyers are not, allowing your swarm to eliminate them instead.

*Split your frigate force into two groups if appropriate. It doesn't take many missle frigs to take down a carrier/harvesting ops if the enemy has to focus on the main battle engagement. Use your greater numbers, speed and flexibility to the fullest.

*It isn't always feasible, but sometimes you might be able to send in a hyper platform above an enemy resource ops, hyper in, kill their carrier and harvestors, then hyper right back to safety through the hyper gate. Timing and keeping the enemy occupied elsewhere is crucial. Tons of fun stuff like this that can be done.

*If the game goes on long enough, don't hesitate to make your own destroyers and/or BCs.


Hope it helps.

Timeless_OMO

[Gunjak]

the Vaygr are too specialised for me, it takes quite a few upgrades to get tehm top notch, as many have said, a mixed combo is deadly, however the only unit i have a real problem is the hyper space gate, i know how to use it, its just placing, also defense field frigs are inhibitors also so you often get cut off in journey and end up battling something you really dont want to.

[Cap_Man_Can]

I just enjoy playing with Vaygr because they're purdy like.:fallen:

[Wirlwind]

I like the Vaygr but i seem to have more luck with the higs... oh well...but yeah...
@ tempest lance fighters do about jack squat to modules so it has to be the numbers your using. i think i'll start using these strats...seem simple but effective.

[DB_Nazgorn]

I'm curious, sometimes when I have a BC for the Vaygr, it will never fire it's trinity cannon. And when it does, it targets random things...Is there any way to target with the trinity cannon and actually get it to fire every time???

[tigrali]

ok, here's my vaygr story in a 2v2 with a guy called echo.

early game, i que'd up 6 collectors from my carrier and 2 refineries and a couple of scout squadrons, and an advanced sensory array

the enemy were both on the offensive from the get-go, and plats saved my ass in the beginning from the swarm of bombers/ac.
i built a firecontrol tower on my ms, and build about 8-10 plats overall to defend my first expansion and my "home" base. the plats fended off the early bomber rush and allowed me to assess my enemy.My buddy was getting creamed from both guys, but was a smart player and set us up a link so i could send reinforcementws quickly. Yes, they blew up the gate 3 diff. times, but it never stopped me from getting over there and supporting him. When i managed my time, I quickly built another carrier and saw lots of vettes so i began building the laser fighters which decimated the attacking foes vettes. i built a few frigs and then mid game my enemy rushed me with missle vettes and about 8 missle plats and a few gun plats, and lo and behold, those laser fighters came to the rescue. With all my fighting i forgot to que up fighters and such and began having lots of money, so i researched a destroyer and had a few built up by the end game.
Some advice would be to get the repair upgrade mid/end game, they saved a few of my 4 destroyers. I ended up having lots of lance fighters witha few ac to support them, and i built up lots of laser vettes which took out a few destroyers. We played well as a team, and even though I thought we were gonna lose (because their fighters/early vettes scared me at first AND i couldn't get to my buddy in time (w/o the hs gate)), we pulled it together and took the victory! That was probably one of the best, hard fought matches I've played.

[AngryAndroid]

OMG, I hate it when you accidentaly press somthing like alt+backspace and then IE delets everything that you have OR jumps 'back' to the previous page. ****ing hell going to need to start again.

Thanks for the advice Tempest. From what you've said I've actualy managed to get some frigates to survive a few encounters. However, the pesky AI actualy bothered to adapt to what I was doing then sent a large wave of anti frigate ships at me, totaly wiping out that particular strike group.

I think the problem with the Vaygr for me and few others is the tech tree, It's just going to take some getting used to. I've managed to find a usefull Vaygr stratagy though, its fairly simple but its been used with some success:

I built a very visible large 'swarm' of strike craft for my opposition to see. While I was churning out as many as I could without reducing my resources too much, I was constructing at a hiden carier (with a hyperspace module) as many heavy missle frigates as possible with a few assault frigates. When the inevitable anti strike craft group arrived to attack, I hypered in the frigates to the flank of the enemy strike group and watched as the opponant was decimated in a matter of about a minute. Not only that, but because it was timed fairly well, most of the strike craft were able to be saved and repaired.

Simple, but effective, maybe I'm getting the hang of this who knows.

[GIMPbeowulf]

That's one of the nice things about a mature vaygr swarm, lance fighters and laser vettes chew right through the typical counters and the rest of the units aren't helpless either.

[Eiden]

Hiigaran is very much the underdog, especially on small maps. Why? Because of EMP. First of all, vaygr has more fighter slots in it's unit cap (18 to hiigs 14), second, it only needs 1 research module for 500 RU, and it's EMP research cost is 1000 RU. Hiig needs a 1500 RU research mod and anther 1500 for EMP. Vag can start producing more fighters sooner, plus (contrary to popular belief) vag fighters squads eat hiig ones alive. When I play vayg and I fighter rush, it's extremely easy to dominate even over a hiig with ints and EMP scouts.