Countering Wehr mortars as Americans

[CroatNotBorat]

I've been having serious problems countering Wehr mortars recently, playing as Americans.

They were messed up in 1.71, but still useful to an extent. Now, with T2 Terror being all the craze, practically every game I play features a mortar, and I find myself unable to counter it. My own mortar won't work, as the Axis one has a longer range. Pushing with rifles doesn't work, as there are MGs and grens covering it. Snipers usually aren't an option, since often you cannot flank with them, and you cannot afford to push them to the front line along with other troops.

Take a map like Wrecked Train, for example, and Wehr starting on their usual north. The fighting goes on in the middle, and their mortar can be placed next to the house (that will have an MG inside). Its range is just enough to shell places the Americans use for cover, behind destroyed wagons and debris. The US mortar cannot reach that far without getting destroyed by infantry support. There is no room for a sniper to take a few shots. Not even a quick M8 works, because the smart Wehr player will also park a PaK nearby.

So what do you do to counter a mortar in such circumstances? I can't think of anything (that's why I'm still lvl8, slowly falling back to lvl7).

[Ashmole3110]

I also have a ridiculously hard time against Wehr mortars. Your best defense is a sniper as the US or 25lbrs as the Brits.Mortar emplacements do a good job,but the wehr mortar outranges it so he can simply just move.Building a 25lbr by your emplacements guarantees that any mortar hitting the area will suffer a counter fire from the wehr mortar.

[CroatNotBorat]

Whoops, forgot the most important thing, countering Wehr mortars as Americans Edited to reflect that.

[Arcinatus]

jeeps work wonders, gotta be careful of any units that are defending the mortar though.....aka volks + panzerfausts...or something...

or just use counter mortar fire and snipers

[Demonic Spoon]

Snipers.

A fun tactic might be to do a feign attack...begin a slight skirmish with them, then flank with one squad to eliminate the mortar.

If the mortar drops, grab it and run. If it doesn't drop, just run. Either way he has no more mortar.

[drChengele]

Seeing as how, by the time Wehr mortars come, you can have a WSC up or be well on your way to get a motorpool, I suggest that you use a sniper (which will come in handy versus Grenadiers later on; the Sniper doesn't care about Zeal bonuses, he will finish off the squads just fine), or get a Greyhound. Greyhounds are very fast and maneuverable and you can easily approach the mortar from the back, with a simultaneous riflesquad attack from the front.

Keep in mind that Greyhounds are getting a reload buff in 2.200.

[CroatNotBorat]

That's all nice, but in the very case of Wrecked Train, the only thing that would IMHO work is an M8 driving all the way around the map, and since it has to pass through enemy territory, it will be visible for long enough to get the PaK rotated, or a schreck squad placed in the house with the MG.

This is roughly how the map coverage looks like, maybe I've even underestimated the range:



There is no space to flank, just one real path of approach.

The sniper cannot reach the mortar. The US mortar cannot reach the Wehr one from the fighting area (the bottom of the circle), and it can barely reach it from the very left and right of the map (which is far away from the US base and controlled by Wehr, anyway). The jeep would die quickly to both small arms fire and the MG42 in the house, or to a cheap Faust - it wouldn't do much to the mortar, anyway.

So what do you do?

[fallen soldier7]

well considering how the mortar can't be firing at all the places in the circle at the same time, you should just draw the mortar fire to one side with a squad of rifles, and when it fires you engage the rest of the defenses with the rest of your force.

technically the same thing as drawing an mg's fire so you can pull off a flank.

[drChengele]

The actual question here would be, why would you assault the mortar if you find it uneconomic and impossible to approach? Just keep your infantry out of the support circle if you think you are too weak for a frontal attack (and indeed, a set-up mortar may well prove to be an ambush involving MG42s), and wait to get some heavier firepower. If you give some ground, the Wehr player must move his mortar forward (to the much more flankable ground) if he wants to keep using it offensively. When there is a firefight somewhere in the mortar's range, you should hear the "tschunk" when it fires a shell and move your Riflemen.

Also, remember that the mortar means one less Gren squad in the field. To expand on that, a mortar means a teching hiatus of 690 manpower (200 for escalation, 220 for Kriegs , 270 for mortar). You can rightfully be almost three Riflesquads ahead of your opponent for that kind of resources. Use this numerical advantage to cap the rest of the map and harrass his deeper points. If he has a mortar he will likely set up an MG42s to defend it, this is a large amount of manpower that you can dedicate to capping. Also if you flank the MGs and the mortar will have to retreat as well. Mortars are useful mainly against stationary troops, and fortunately for US, Riflemen are never stationary in firefights.

I don't understand how a mortar can be outside a sniper's "range". Approach with your sniper cloaked. If he has a lot of infantry, draw them away to the other side, then approach with your sniper cloaked.

[CroatNotBorat]

But there's also an MG next to the mortar, and a whole bunch of infantry in cover, while I have to abandon mine to make a push - and I'll be starved of manpower and units since the mortar kills my units in cover.

I guess it's possible with insane micro, which I don't have Or Infantry and enough CPs for a squad of fired-up rangers and an arty drop... I should practice more.

Edit: By sniper's range, I meant a cloaked sniper's flanking maneuver. If it wasn't for those bodies of water to the right, I'd have no problems with the flanking stuff...

[BikerGnome]

Do a search on how to deal with us morotars as wehr and put the search date to pre 3 months ago

[CroatNotBorat]

I'd only find complaining about screwed damage tables

At least both mortars had the same range back then. If they could shell you - you could shell them. Now you can't. But let's not transform this into a balance discussion

[Guardsman Yoshi]

I find the Axis Mortar to be very annoying as well. I usually just barrage it with my Howitzer. Very effective and it'll take out the units guarding the Mortar too if he isn't paying attention.

[CoH_freak]

heres a little trick i learned. ok lets assume were playing Lyon



||---------------------------------| |--------------------
/ _ '
* |_|

\ "


usa the mortar at the "\" to draw the enemies attention. his mortats will be out of range and move closer.

your mortar at the "/" should be holding fire. when he moves his mortars up, / mortar will be in range. btw, SHOOT AND SCOOT. every allied player is an axis player and will see this. allied mortars, unless they are doing something critical, should fire a few rounds and move. perhaps move to the ' and ". keep moving and keep the axis firing at close range. maybe even snipe them. becareful of bait though.



EDIT: DON'T BE ALLIES PUSSEYS! THIS IS HOW IT WAS MEANT TO BE! AXIS MORTARS ARE HEAVY, ALLIED ONES AREN'T! KEEP IT AS IT IS!

[Sle]

Never even occurred to me, thanks guys I'll have to start using more mortars now!

Evil cackle

[Searaven]

The range isn't really that huge of a difference. If you know where his mortar is just start barraging it. If you barrage before he does you have a good chance of winning.

[BoDyBaG2224]

Axis Mortars are very deadly, they sound like they kick ass too...which they do.

[bonemachine]

How am I supposed to do a massive 10 rifleman charge when bombs fall on their heads, RAAAAAAGHHRHRH!

[Metavirulent]

Mortar is tier 2 and you should have or be very close to one of the many choices that can handle it, being your own mortar (only an option if you are not dumb and never move, the range is a non-issue), a sniper (useful anyway), an M8 (also quite handy), or simply grenades and some flanking to the MG.

[BiteMeAgain]

LOL, geez allies, remeber back in days how wehr players complained about how powerful Allied Mortors were? And now you complain how powerful Axis mortor is? well, duh, this is what it was meant to be at the very beginning. You got 57mm that is cheaper and much better than Pak, isnt that a sort of trade off, dont you think?

[CroatNotBorat]

This thread is about HOW TO COUNTER Wehr mortars, not about whining, so if you are looking for a flamefest - please go somewhere else.

[bonemachine]

The key is not necessarily to take out the mortar, but neutralize/minimize its effectiveness.

[Schwarzwald]

Sniper / jeep

[MrSomeguy]

Know whats funny, both allied factions get a shit mortar, while axis get flame rounds, longer ranges, nebels, and stuka's.

Although 1 thing I noticed is that the allies get their real artillery from their doctrines.

[Vintage]

Um, the British have an AWESOME mortar which is nearly immune to everything except panzershreks and tanks. The American mortar does more damage to inf then the Wehr mortar. Yes, the Wehr mortar has slightly more range. It doesn't mean you can't counter mortar it. Just move your mortar slightly closer then begin barraging it. It is really easy to bait the enemy into wasting the barrage ability and then using your barrage ability on him. In a mortar vs mortar battle it is a toss up. Wehr has range advantage American damage. If the American mortar lands a hit directly in the middle of all the crew in the Wehr mortar you can kill all three or just the two required for a kill in one shot. I don't think I've ever seen the Wehr mortar one shot the American one.

[BoDyBaG2224]

Mortars are key to beating the blob and their smoke an underutilized ability. Whermacht mortar with a bit of vet is a PIA.

[bonemachine]

The axis vet should make them too much more troubling until vet 3, no?

[Dryden]

LOL, geez allies, remeber back in days how wehr players complained about how powerful Allied Mortors were? And now you complain how powerful Axis mortor is? well, duh, this is what it was meant to be at the very beginning. You got 57mm that is cheaper and much better than Pak, isnt that a sort of trade off, dont you think?

no, i dont. Instead of 57mm Axis has PwnzorShrecks that cant be Nebeled, Stukaed, can retreat, and quickly reinforce and heal. And, you know, those Shreks counter 57mm better than AI specs...

[jujumbura]

A bit of extra range on the mortar teams hardly makes a difference one way or another. This isn't Starcraft where you have siege-tanks that instantly nail you as soon as you cross the range threshhold. A mortar shell takes time to travel; plenty of time to get up and move if you're actively trying to "mortar-duel".

The morst critical element in these fights is surprise; you catch your opponent's mortar in a blind spot or when he's attacking somewhere else. This has always been the case, even back when the forums were filled with complaints about how OP'd the American mortar was. He who gets the jump gets the kill, it's not about minute numerical differences.

[BoDyBaG2224]

Actually it is generally whoever is closer will win the mortar war. If you are at max range, it will take a while to counter-mortar that unit. Relocate, closer, behind a wall, covered by an MG or something and then barrage the fuck outta the other mortar. Surprise is an important factor, but distance, I think, is key.

[jujumbura]

I'm not sure what you mean by that; both mortars are equally close to each other.

Are you saying that, whoever hits barrage at the closer distance wins? This is plausible, since Player 1 might baragge at max range, suffering an accuracy penalty, then Player 2 notices the miss and moves closer with a counter-barrage.

But if Player 1 is paying attention at all, he should be getting the fuck out of dodge as soon as he sees that his barrage missed and the enemy is repositioning. Again, it comes down to who is really focused and has the best reflexes. Because you get one lucky hit and the whole crew can go down.