|
|
|
Currently APCR rounds do not help the Panzer 4. I personally think a tank that currently has no chance at ALL of killing a tank 1v1 should atleast get this small buff for going tank hunters. Its the doctrines name after all. It wont make it able to kill tanks up front, it wont make it able to suddenly wtfpwnzer people, it would allow it to maybe once in awhile penetrate a tank where it wouldnt have.
P4s are anti-infantry tanks, they aren't supposed to take on other armor-- the rounds are not fired at high enough velocity to penetrate regardless.. Support them with AT halftracks, panzershrecks, and the like.
Yeah but thats not what I'm talking about. I'm not USING panzer4s as anti tank. The only time i do is when I have 2 and can get one behind an enemy tank. I'd like to atleast see though my ACPR rounds ability effect my most used and favorite tank. I mean, is there any real logical reason not to ? It doesnt say 'only tanks that can kill tanks'
it might be the fact that APCR rounds are ANTI-TANK rounds, a tank not used against other tanks would not utilize them. The P4-IS is for use against infantry, it is not meant for heavy anti-tank duties.
I'm not using it for anti tank, but I payed command points for that ammo type, they better give it to my panzer4s. It wont effect its ability to be completely dominated by other tanks, it still will. But its for some RANDOM reason not given the rounds ive commissioned to my tanks.
yea i have to say apcr rounds would not go with the p4is design.
But you guys are missing the point. It doesnt matter if it goes against the P4's design. My whole doctrine is to make people better against tanks. Should it matter if it sucks or if its already good ?
Well, APCR is armour piercing ammunition.
The Panzer IV uses low velocity HE shells to gib infantry - it's a different type of shell.
If the Panzer IV wanted to benefit from the AP ammo, it would lose its anti-infantry AOE damage.
That is your 'realism' reason.
Of course, you could let tanks fire different kinds of ammunition, but that seems to be a design decision that relic avoided, probably for simplicity reasons.
Also, hashinshin, Wehrmacht's zeal ability from the Terror Doctrine affects Volks and Grenadiers .. it does not affect KHC.
There is no rule that every doctrine ability has to affect every unit.
Last edited by BatAttack; 20th Dec 07 at 7:38 PM.
it should affect pvIV.the shermans 75 and 76mm gun both clip squads and penetrate tanks.
so what rounds are they using then?
flawed logic here.
Last edited by Splitmonkey; 20th Dec 07 at 10:13 PM.
You guys are still missing his point, sad.
Somewhere in Splitmonkey's post is a point, as soon as I can read his jumbled sentences, I'll figure out what it is.
Even if it used the shell, the PIV fires at too low a velocity to penetrate. Thus using the shell would be a complete wasteBut you guys are missing the point. It doesnt matter if it goes against the P4's design. My whole doctrine is to make people better against tanks.
.
I'm not missing the point. I'm disagreeing with the point, because it is poorly argued, unrealistic, lacking in balance, and because I feel like being antagonistic the moment I saw you say "you're missing the point".You guys are still missing his point, sad.
Last edited by Melissia; 20th Dec 07 at 8:30 PM.
I'm not, for the record, missing the point. He is.
Panzer IV ISs are firing low-velocity HE shells. AT rounds are, to a T, high-velocity shaped charges. There is no middle ground, as the two are mutually exclusive.
To put it another way, a dozen rifle squads with BARs should be just as effective against heavy armor as a single rifle squad with BARs: Nil. You're using the wrong unit, and repeated (and heavy) use of the wrong unit should not be rewarded.
#13
I don't think it needs to benefit from APCR rounds. Another tank should send an ungaurded PIV IS running in fear. Even two of them. I can't see any harm from allowing them to benefit from it, but I don't see any need for them to benefit from it either.
The true mind can weather all the lies and illusions without being lost. The true heart can touch the poison of hatred without being harmed. Since beginning-less time, darkness thrives in the void but always yields to purifying light.
2 PV4s can pretty much kill any tank, even a churchill. Put a PV4 behind a tank and watch how it can kill it. THATS what I want more out of in my APCR rounds. It doesnt matter if it sucks, or if it doesnt, it should get a benefit cause it says all tanks... I mean common.
As for the 'different ammo types' arguement, the sherman fires two different types of rounds seemlessly.
The tooltip says "USELESS AGAINST TANKS" for a reason.
You have the grossly imba Marder III, as well as schrek PG squads. Use them.
Which seriously makes me question the use of the APCR ammo as a doctrine ability in the first place. Marder and shreks seem to penetrate most of the time as it is. What's left? AT halftrack? Pah. It was never meant to be used as main-line AT, and performs adequately versus vehicles to begin with. Hetzer? Doesn't need it, so far as I can tell. Jagdpanther? Doesn't seem to need it either.You have the grossly imba Marder III, as well as schrek PG squads. Use them.
It doesnt matter if i do or dont have god on my side, it should be effecting my PV4 and its nots NOT. It doesnt say 'if your tank sucks in the first place it doesnt get the rounds' does it?
Ive already said it can kill tanks, so I'm using something that somehow my entire doctrine doesnt effect. Its an oversight, other tanks use multiple ammo tanks, so that shouldnt be effecting me.
It shouldn't, and it isn't. Screaming childishly "It should do this cause I want it to!" doesn't cut it. It's not an oversight, it's "working as intended".it should be effecting my PV4
look at the muzzle length on the gun. It ONLY fires low velocity shells. It is not capable of firing any other round.
The Sherman was. That is why it was so popular when the brits first got it in north africa. It was the first tank they had that could fire AP and HE shells. AP for killing tanks, HE for killing infantry and Anti-tank guns.
OP is soooo blind... i mean, has he even once looked at the P IV's cannon? its stubbed nose, therefor it cannot physically shoot a APCR round. Like the op doesn't understand he is talking about fitting a square into a peg shaped hole.
Yes, im blind. Obviously the PV4 has no 'main tank gun' at all. Its just a really big minor gun.
I mean youre playing a game where bazookas can penetrate a king tiger, telling me my panzer 4 wont get any benefit out of a doctrine ability that says I'll get benefit from it.
"Oh might Moderators, in who we trust, please bring your judgement down and end this bickering, Amen"
The PE Panzer IV IS is a dedicated Anti-Infantry tank, utilising a Low-Velocity 'stubby' cannon to lob HE shells onto infantry targets. Because of this it is incapable of actually firing APCR ammunition types. Complaining that a vehicle is either incapable or underpowered for a role it was not intended to fill is rather pointless.
This game is supposed to be about combined arms, so use it.
Having gone Tank Destroyer Doctrine you already have access to Hetzer and double Panzerschrek goodness, also the Jagdpanther lurking in the near future.
Not to mention PE Marder as a non-doctrinal unit.
Why are you complaining that one vehicle fails to gain a boost from an ability that is not even remotely aimed at it?
"such is life"
Yeah it seems like the only vehicle that would really benefit from that ability. Strange.
So do you want the extra schrecks you get for spending points also give you more carbines and assault rifles? That's pretty much the same thing.
The PIV short barrel still engaged other tanks during the early stages of the war and was actually rather effective. But the equipment used in COH is more later war stuff which the PIV wouldnt real be able to do much too....granted the whole realism<gameplay issue but with what the OP is saying, the PIV getting the benefit of APCR is not such a bad thing given it is tankbusters and a 4CP doctrine ability, and you have to forego Hetzers to get them...if you have a look at its performance the PIV short barrel is still going to be able to penetrate inf vehicles but still have appalling pen against real tanks. Principle of consistency.
Alright.
The panzer 4 SHOULD be armed with the armor piercing rounds. It makes sense guys.
Now, as we know the panzer4 has less than .02% chance of penetrating the sherman at medium range. Now all we have to do i multiply it by 1.35 for the new penetration against shermans.
It's penetration versus the sherman is now .027
I just emailed relic and they agreed to implement it. Don't listen to coh stats. When you play the game, the stats are secretly changed to .027. Go test it in game, I promise you'll be happy.
HAPPY?!
Last edited by Melonplant; 21st Dec 07 at 2:32 AM.
Greyhounds are my favorite, still!
Fast panzer4! Coming soon, to a motorpool near you!
From the look of it the only units it would significantly improve performance against would be the Stuart and the Priest.
Seems acceptable to me.
Rear penetration vs Jeep is .6?
Jeeps don't have rear armor anyways, I thought.
I used to think the same thing because I never recalled seeing a "rear shot" display for a light vehicle, but they do have rear armor modifiers.
Small arms that can hurt light vehicles can also get rear armor penetration bonuses.(flank those PE vehicles)
Thanks for the tip. I was not aware of that!Small arms that can hurt light vehicles can also get rear armor penetration bonuses.(flank those PE vehicles)
Well this thread was useful. I'm as surprised as anyone. I now know about rear armor penetration with small arms.
The PIV is great against infantry. If it became competent against tanks too people wouldnt build anything else. Think croc with a cannon or easily buildable Churchill croc. It'd be totally OP'd.
Maybe the upgrade could give an option for the tank to switch between HE and AT rounds and with them be slightly better against armour but poor against infantry but frankly i think its fine the way it is. One of the more balanced PE units.
Do you guys know what APCR rounds do?
~35% penetration increase
What is the PIV is standard penetration vs a... M10?
.1641?
do the math
APCR rounds don't make it a good counter.
Not to mention every tank in the game can kite it.
The difference would be, as melonplant (he beat me to it) said, virtually undetectable.
What MAKES a difference is the 600-80000% or so improvement in penetration from rear shots, not the 35% one from APCR. (Actually, according to CoH-stats, it has to be the only gun to be WORSE against the rear of jeeps, M3's and Bren's, than against their front... or the tables is messed up. The increase against the sherman seems a little excessive. (That's the 80000% one).
It is a little funny that many of the posters here cite as their main argument realism, when they usually scoff at such arguments.
However, despite the hypocricy, it is occassionally a valid argument, and I agree with it here. When it is unrealistic AND makes no real difference, don't include it.
About the jagdpanther, it will *always* have the APCR active when it shows up, which means there is no tank in existence it will not automatically penetrate even at max range. The only exception is the pershing at long range, which it has a 97% chance to penetrate the front armor of. (!).
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
-Winston Churchill
#34
Which was nerfed during the patch, so its no longer imba.You have the grossly imba Marder III,
To make it blunt, no. This is the most stupid balance idea for a while. The Panzer 4 would become nigh unstoppable if it could destroy infantry AND tanks so easy.
You should check out Priority Vox Channel Secundus, a blog!
The AP rounds make the Hetzer quite a bit more useful..as it is now..it's just 57mm fodder. Thick, sloping armor...of used tissues.
Not that I even had a chance to use it much, since the damn thing STILLCARSEHKASJESKJRSRallthefuckingtime.
Anywho.
The Panzer VI is anti-infantry. It fires High Explosive munitions. By their very definition(and name), High Explosive munitions are NOT Armor Piercing. So it makes total sense that Armor Piercing munitions would not work on a unit firing High Explosive munitions.
Originally Posted by Bob Lutz
It is like people don't even read the thread and/or understand what they are talking about...
Luwinkle should the Sherman upgun make it ineffective vs infantry then?
APCR a.k.a. HVAP """HIGH VELOCITY""" ARMOUR PIERCING
can not be equipped on a short barreled gun BECAUSE it needs HIGH VELOCITY in order to perform as intended. why would i shoot a projectile out of a gun that is not even capable to operate with that kind of projectile.
in order to get some velocity on that projectile you need to have three things:
propellant: check
high projectile mass: yeah, check
a long barrel: che.... hey wait we have no long barrel, it's a short one, ah fuck those physicists get on my nerves. i want my lasersword i don't care if light is infinite i want it now!!!
and i don't care if a apcr projectile needs high velocity and therefore a long barrel I WANT MY APCR ROUND ON THAT AI PZIV. NOW!
Bonemachine, the upgunned Sherman is significantly less effective vs infantry. But a direct hit from a tank shell (and the shrapnel thrown around from the impact) WILL fuck some shit up.
And bonemachine, I have read the thread, and the only people who don't understand what they are talking about are the ones saying a purely anti-infantry tank with NO armor penetration capabilities(and no such way to fire said armor penetrating munitions) should get armor piercing shells.
#39
Moved to Balance Issues.
I don't scoff at realism when it is supported by other arguments. Actually, realism is somewhat important to me (just as "fluff" is important in DoW balance)... so yeah...
Regardless, realism + balance + logic = No, high velocity armor piercing shells should not be fired out of a low velocity tank cannon, it would be overpowered if it gained any more meaningful penetration versus tanks, and there's simply no NEED for it to gain such penetration given its current role.
Q.E.D. Done with this thread.
*Sigh*
To start off with, the Panzer IV Ausf. F never used APCR rounds as the short barreled 75mm gun was a low velocity weapon designed largely for infantry support, firing an HE round which was very effective against infantry, light vehicles and buildings. Hollow charge rounds were developed for the gun to give it some AT capability but the effectiveness of the shell was rather limited in terms of accuracy (due to the effective range of the shell itself).
I guess if anything, it could get a Hollow Charge Rounds ability but honestly it's not really needed in OF given the abundance of PE AT capabilities.
#42
According to this INFO the OP has a valid argument.
Guess what GUN the Panzer IV in CoH currently sports...."As the Panzer IV was intended to fill an anti-infantry combat role, early models were fitted with a low-velocity 7.5 cm KwK 37 L/24 gun, firing high-explosive shells.
After the Germans encountered heavy tank designs such as the Soviet KV-1, the Panzer IV Ausf. F2 and G were armed with the high-velocity 7.5 cm KwK 40 L/43 tank gun.
Dymo, may i introduce you to the
75 mm KwK 40 L/43
in germany i would say to you " du bist gerade ausm mustopf gekommen" the english expression would be being slow on the
uptake.
we are talking about the PZIV equipped with the 75 mm KwK L/24
The sherman 75 vs. 76mm cannon has like double the splash, which is why i pretty much never upgrade. The splash is way to important for killing schreks fast enough and rarely do you need a tank to actually hunt tanks. For hunting tanks i generally use a tank destroyer.
BTW give him the APCR rounds for his PIV but then it needs to take away all the AOE on the projectile to it becomes useless against inf.
#45
And according to our pre-immenent stats site the Panzer PIV of CoH sports the
Kwk40 75mm Panzer IV Gun or is there 2 K40 75mm models available?
And the ICON used shows a long barreled gun, not a snub nose like the Stuh.
If that info I posted is wrong then please go to Wikipedia.com and correct their rather blatant error.
Last edited by Dymo; 21st Dec 07 at 8:44 AM.
Dymo may i suggest that you read the OP again, carefully. we are talking about the "PE" Pz. IV that has the short barreled 75 mm KwK 37 L/24, so to say it is an old Pz. IV. After March 1942 Pz. IV were all equipped with the long barreled 7,5-cm-KwK 40 L/43 in reaction to the new russian tanks. Wehrmacht has the new "Ausführung" F2 or rather higher because we are situated 1944 timeline wise. so it could be the Ausführung G,H or J (with a new gun, called 7,5-cm-KwK 40 L/48).
anyways, pls inform yourself before posting your kind of facts, namely you "own".
for clarification: http://www.coh-stats.com/factions/pa...5mmpzivsb.html
pe: 75 mm KwK 37 L/24
http://www.coh-stats.com/factions/we.../75mmpziv.html
wm: 7,5-cm-KwK 40 L/43 or L/48.
#47
Damn it all. Clicked the wrong faction.
So then, what the hell is the OP on about.
Thank god it is only a game eh!
I vote no for any further buffs to the P4.
In particuar, with a fast P4, you should have to go left side first for Hetzer.
It would be terribe if you could go right side first for AP rounds on the P4, so you could just spam P4s that pwn everything AND be only 4 CPs away from the jagdpanther.
However, it would be nice if APCR rounds was worthwhile. I've never noticed it making any difference to my Marder or Hetzers.
"Also, I can kill you with my brain."
aka CluelessSmurf
this is kinda like asking puma to kill tanks with its 20mm, the short barrel gun has super low penetration on purpose, cuz its named the anti-infantry tank, it doesnt even get 100% penetration vs rear on some tanks
and fixed the jeeps, should be x3 penetration @ rear and 0.6 moving accuracy
None of the Axis tanks in game really need APCR rounds. APCR was more or less designed to cope with the tough sloped armor of the T34/76 and later models. It's rather pointless against a Sherman that can be penetrated by throwing rocks at it.
Even though our lovely, obsolete Panzer IV F1 has the short-barrel, it'd still be armed with HEAT rounds for use on tanks. Same thing with the Hummel. I think Hummels had 4 HEAT rounds. Maybe a HEAT round ability for the F1 would be nice for a munitions cost.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
