Goliaths vs trenches

[Brother Glacius]

Are the Goliaths suppose to do anything to trenches, or the guys inside? I recently played a game and ran a goliath right to a trench filled with a LT and platoon. It detonated right next to it. Not one scratch to any of the troops inside. I don't recall if any damage took place to the trench. However, that trench lasted for quite a while in the game and was even captured by me, so it could not have been that much.

That just seems wrong to me. Shouldn't the goliath do something to trenches? Is this a bug?

***** Brother G.

[Sturmtruppen]

you cant kill a trench in 1 hit because goliath doesnt do enough damage
you cant kill troops inside because the troops inside is shielded by cover bonus

http://www.coh-stats.com/basics/covertables/pe1.html

~15% accuracy, so if you pack 10 dudes into a trench, only 1-2 would get hurt, and thats about 40 damage per guy, not enough to kill a full health most of the time

[Thalasion]

IMO goliaths should empty a trench, no questios asked. They are expensive and unreliable, if you get one to a trench you deserve to kill everyone inside. And if it were a real battle, a goliath could be driven into a trench, then detonated.

[Melissia]

I think it would make sense to have goliaths empty trenches, I mean, even from a balance standpoint... they cost 150 muni and can be killed in transit.

[Demonic Spoon]

Firstly, it's 125 muni. Secondly, when I tried it the trench was emptied.

[Melissia]

Meh, I never used them cause they're so easy to shoot down, myself.

[Stuka Pilot]

Never been able to use a goliath to get my $'s worth out of it. But I could see why it should be a formidable weapon vs the entrenched enemy.

Still, goliaths get shot up too quickly.

Best use for them is blowing bridges.

[sigrun]

Firstly, it's 125 munitions

160 actually, for PzE - from their munitions halftrack. (2.201)

Edit: I stand corrected. Just checked. It is 125. My apology.

Haven't tried a Goliath on a trench, but phos grenades work just great. And phos mortar rounds aren't half bad either when available. Love listening to the ba$tards burn!

[Sturmtruppen]

been 125 since 1.5 or something

[La Head]

ya, it definately needs some buffing vs trenches, realistically and in terms of balance. it is kinda like an expensive 1 time ability which doesn't even always does what it is suppose to do cuz it gets destroyed along the way. in a real world point of view, the detonation should kill a great deal with all the scrap metal flying everywhere.

[Limming]

I think this whould be a good counter to trenchs.

[MirrorImage]

Goliaths should be able to empty out trenches. It's a pretty hefty investment for a one use bomb that can be destroyed even before it gets to its target. I believe they should be given passive camo like fallschirmjagers also. I love these things mortar smoke + goliath = destruction.

[Rhyper]

I think goliaths are very good to kill trenches and the people inside... its another Great counter for the wehrmacht to kill british troops..

other measures are flame pioneers right? thats it? not really alot of way's to kill british soldiers in trenches.

[Dark_Avenger]

to me its either a goliath or a registered artillary

I think Il choose the arty

[Melissia]

barrage them with nebels. The closer you are, the better (less scatter), but don't get within rifle distance. Preferably use two nebels-- the second one will end up pinning the squad and forcing a retreat if they delete the trench. They have flame DoT just like inc grenades.

[Warnstaff]

What if the goliath had the ability to literally drive into a trench and blow up inside it; completely obliterating it and anything inside, but not anything outside the trench?

[sigrun]

been 125 since 1.5 or something

Acknowledged Sturmtruppen. See my edit with apologies. My error. Cheers.

[DatonKallandor]

ya, it definately needs some buffing vs trenches, realistically and in terms of balance. it is kinda like an expensive 1 time ability which doesn't even always does what it is suppose to do cuz it gets destroyed along the way. in a real world point of view, the detonation should kill a great deal with all the scrap metal flying everywhere.

Realistically the Goliath would do nothing. The explosion and shrapnel goes right over the trench. The exact same effect a trench has on artillery. 100% protection unless the shell lands in the trench. The engine can't do the difference properly though, which is why artillery (and Goliaths) have no effect instead of no-effect-unless-direct-hit.

[killerraddish]

the goliath would drive inside the trench

[DatonKallandor]

Which, again, the engine can't properly do. You'll need to wait for the next engine update (next expansion).

[killerraddish]

i was stating in reality it would and therefore would be the reason it could destroy the trench, even though the engine cant work it out, it would just need a massive damage bonus against trenches

[DatonKallandor]

But that's inconsistent with how the engine failure is treated. Your solution is akin to just making artillery as effective against trenches as if they hit inside every time. That's clearly not the case. Artillery is treated as if it never hit the trench directly, which is also the way the Goliath is treated, for reasons of consistency.

[hashinshin]

As a joke I once had 4 MP44 squads sit ON TOP of a trench firing.

I killed about nothing before I lost 3 men and hadn't dropped their health AT ALL and decided you could NOT kill trenches with actual guns.

[DatonKallandor]

As a joke I once had 4 MP44 squads sit ON TOP of a trench firing.

Which is something the engine doesn't recognize. Trenches don't have an open top. It's treated like an all-round building.

[Fairplay]

Realistically the Goliath would do nothing. The explosion and shrapnel goes right over the trench.

Except for going deaf and maybe getting winded.

[Mistenth]

Gameplay wise the expensive Goliath should wreck the trench, take it as if it drove inside.

Once some PZGs captured a trench, I fire-uped an airborne squad and tossed a satchel inside.

1 PZG squad exited but did not retreat in time, 1 PZG squad stayed inside. Everything including the trench (near full health) exploded into gibs and debris.

If a 50 mun satchel charge can do it, a 125 mun goliath that sees rare use ought to be able to do it =x

[Schwarzwald]

If this counter is going to work the Cost of goliaths should be lowered period, i could save those MU for a stuka.

As a joke I once had 4 MP44 squads sit ON TOP of a trench firing.

I killed about nothing before I lost 3 men and hadn't dropped their health AT ALL and decided you could NOT kill trenches with actual guns.

It would be a Awesome feature if you could Charge trenches with your men in attempt to take the trench like a struggle of some sort...would be fun.

[neonblack88]

It would be kind of stupid if your guys got a huge bonus for running on top of a trench IMO, its to easy to do, and realisticly yes, your guys would own everyone inside the trench from that angle, but realisticly, they would die before getting there.

I think goliaths should counter trenches, it would give some insentive to use them at least.

[CoatedTrout]

Have you guys seen the explosion the goliath has when it detonates?

It would turn the trench into a bloody crater.

Oh yeah, and this would be a good idea regardless of realism.

[bottenbreker]

definately should clear out a trench. if the brit player let a goliath comes soo close to his trench, he deserves to lose it.

[Brother Glacius]

Maybe all the trenches are named David...

But seriously, I think its a simple design issue. Goliaths are treated like arty, trenches are very resilient buildings. As already pointed out, unless there is a hit inside of the trench, the occupants stay unharmed.

Nades and satchel charges have rules allowing them to go inside buildings. Goliaths don't.

I don't expect a fix for this, as they would have to create an exception for the goliaths when it comes to trenches to allow them some form of penetration to the occupants. What they could do is simply have them do massive damage to the trenches. I'd be happy with that.

As it stands now, its a complete waste of 125 munitions on a sure hit...and that probably needs to be fixed.

***** Brother G.

[Texture]

I don't see why it has to be allowed to go 'into' the trench at all. The building type for trenches provides modifiers to the troops inside of it. These affect the accuracy and damage of incoming fire. Just change the modifiers for the goliath, and you are done.

[DatonKallandor]

Inconsistent with how all other explosions are treated by the trench.

[Dark_Avenger]

its not that hard to make exceptions to things like this.

trench makes arty do nothing

put in the exception that the goliath has full damage and acuracy against the trench

either that or change the type of weapon the goliath is from artillary to something else

[Melissia]

Inconsistent with how all other explosions are treated by the trench.

Consistent with the cost and level of risk needed in order to use a goliath against a trench.

[Ano2]

Trenches need to be entirely re-thought, as does the British faction as a whole. I would love to see goliaths do massive damage to trenches but that would give us two pre-sturm options to fight them which is still absolutely pathetic.

[Melissia]

Right, Nebelwerfers, Pioneers and Goliaths, as well as simply going around them and letting them stay there as a stationary, worthless unit becuse you won't engage them (Brit units cost too much and are generally too slow to simply block off all key points on even teh most restrictive maps early on).

[AnyKey]

I agree, the Goliath is a good weapon to use against everything, if used properly the device is destructive and very effective offense weapon. Although, I myself have tried, on trenches it's a joke, it's a waste. This issue with trenches is starting to nauseate me more and more, yet nothing has been done.

[agent1red]

Hmmm well Think of this - soldiers in a trench - Goliath explodes by it - shrapnel is sprayed over trench-- impact shockwave is softened by the ground and fortified sandbags = healthy squad.

Now runing up to a trench with riffles and machineguns - mowing down soldiers in a trench seems more realistic - but it isnt they stay alive dispite a billion bullets shooting down at them all at once. Think about it-

[Texture]

Please return to the front desk to drop off your attachment to realism, before proceeding with the thread. Thank you, and have a nice day.

[yoshi245]

I agree with agent red on running up on a trench and mowing down soldiers. This should also apply to the Mortar emplacement. I mean for the love of god, you can have like 50 infantry literally on top of the thing raining bullets down on the Mortar team and they shrug it off as it was nothing.

[Pyro Paul]

Hmmm well Think of this - soldiers in a trench - Goliath explodes by it - shrapnel is sprayed over trench-- impact shockwave is softened by the ground and fortified sandbags = healthy squad.

think about this- several hundred pounds of explosives detonating, enough to create a massive crater in the ground... it melts, pushes, or throws the very ground it is on away from it. now imagine that this several hundred pounds of explosives was sitting next to a 4.5 foot deep trench...

this make shift hole some how negates the laws of physics and protects every one inside of it from the harm of an earth reigning explosion?



also, the sand bags arn't there for protection.. the sand bags are there to create a wall so the dirt stays compact and near vertical like and doesn't loosen and become a gradual slope. because really, all sand bags are is the Earth around you shoved in to canvas bags... i

[DatonKallandor]

think about this- several hundred pounds of explosives detonating, enough to create a massive crater in the ground... it melts, pushes, or throws the very ground it is on away from it. now imagine that this several hundred pounds of explosives was sitting next to a 4.5 foot deep trench...

this make shift hole some how negates the laws of physics and protects every one inside of it from the harm of an earth reigning explosion?

Yes. Foxholes and trenches have always worked that way. Unless the artillery shell (ie, the explosion itself) lands directly inside the trench, it provides perfect protection.
And the engine can't differentiate between near and direct hits, damage wise.

[Panzer Jager]

Goliath and V2 should undeniably kill a trench. What the heck should be stopping them? A trench is just an organized hole.

[bonemachine]

And the engine can't differentiate between near and direct hits, damage wise.

The engine does do this with explosive weapons.

[Texture]

Goliath and V2 should undeniably kill a trench. What the heck should be stopping them? A trench is just an organized hole.

Dude... "A trench is just an organized hole" is one of the funniest things I have heard. That is awesome. I love that.

[DatonKallandor]

The engine does do this with explosive weapons.

Not really. It reduces damage based on distance. That's all well and fine. But it can't do that based on target, and not in a "hit = 100+% damage, miss = no damage" fashion, which is what a trench needs.

[SmellyTerror]

It would be kind of stupid if your guys got a huge bonus for running on top of a trench IMO, its to easy to do, and realisticly yes, your guys would own everyone inside the trench from that angle, but realisticly, they would die before getting there.

Actually, I think it'd be excellent. Imagine, you'd have to hold the enemy infantry away from the trench opening with suppressive fire or even *gasp* barbed wire and/or mines! Attackers would need to expose themselves to enemy fire and run right to the trench mouth to attack. ZOMG, realism from a game mechanic! Can it be true?