Where are the panzers?
No King tiger/sturmtiger
no proper tanks only cp ones
anyone think pe should have better armor/ Wehr should be like pe
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#1
Where are the panzers?
No King tiger/sturmtiger
no proper tanks only cp ones
anyone think pe should have better armor/ Wehr should be like pe
It's impossible to make a panzer only faction. Not to mention that Panzer =/= Tank. "Panzer" also includes Hetzers, Jagdpanthers, Marders and all the other Tank Destroyers.
They are a specialized faction, thats what makes them great, no realy all around units like the US.
Panzer means armor, and anything can be armor, even the scout car! So yes, they are quite "panzer", they only have one buildable infantry unit, the rest is armor.
they HAVE some of the best stuff on wheels: Marder III, PIV IS, Scout Car, Mortar HT, Inf HT, Armored Car, ....
as said: Panzer doestnt mean tank, it means armored. so i think the "Panzer Elite" is quite a good name for the faction since it relies heavily on armored cars, HT's etc.
Gamers don't die, they go to the next level
The name is misleading; if you want to play the closest thing to a Panzer Division, play Wehrmacht. If you want to play a Panzer Grenadier Division, play Panzer Elite.
It's referring to Panzer-grenadiers, the mechanized infantry. The vehicles are intended to support them.
This is thread #345435436 on this topic.
Panzer Elite aren't a tank company, they are a mechanized infantry company.
Mechanized infantry = infantry with halftrack support, with very very few tanks if any.
Originally Posted by Bob Lutz
the Panzer Elite are not a faction of an Armored Panzer divison, they are modeled after the Großdeutschland Division, a Panzer grenadier unit which recieved elite training and equipment even before the feared Waffen-ss units while it still remained under the command of the German Heer.
PanzerGrenadiers are light infintry giving focus on the usage of high mobility half tracks and mobile assault guns instead of acctually using acctual battle tanks.
What Panzer Elite really is
Since everyone has justified the "panzer" part, I'll justify the "elite" part.
the german army, from the onset of the war, possessed a core of ultra-mechanized, ultra-equipped, and ultra-trained soldiers. They were the oens who did the actual "blitzkrieg". The rest of the army's (often still using horses for transportation) single job was to follow up slowly and wipe out the remaining encircled troops.
Because of that, they were always equipped with the msot vehicles for their infantry (halftracks and scout cars).
Since it was plentiful quantities of high-quality equipment, they were also among the best actual soldiers of Germany. Of course, this strategy proved unsuccessful; while the mechanized forces of Germany remained powerful almost throughout the entire war, the rest of the army fell when allied armies were all entirely mechanized.
Killer Zero, you forgot to put extra emphasis on the 'Elite' part too.
Burn the heretic.
I'm not entirely sure if the Panzer Elite are supposed to represent the Großdeutschland division. In general, the equipment availible to them shows something of a depleted Panzergrenadier division. GD also had attached Panzer divisions by this time in the war.
If anything, they are meant to represent the SS units during the market garden campaign.
Heh heh, the wiki article about the Großdeutschland Division says that "The GD Division served exclusively on the Eastern Front." So, if PE is based on GD, does that mean Relic already has the German half of any East Front expansion in the game already?
I read a book about Operation Market Garden written by an american airborne that was in it, and he mentioned panzergrenadiers several times in it. So those are probably it. Then again he also mentioned a lot of panthers and a tiger or two. :x
The tutorial clearly identifies it as "Kampfgruppe Lehr". Naming it "Panzer Elite" in army selection screens is just a matter of what sounds better/convinience.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzerlehrdivision
um, Lehr means 'Teach' in german. it is acctually a Pun at the fact that you are taking a tutorial. there was no 'Kampfgruppe Lehr' in the german Whermact or Waffen-SS. it is purely a play on words, which also is what lead to much confusion about the Panzer Elite acctually being the Panzer Lehr division.
depleted? in what way are they depleted?
they have access to the Hetzer, Jagd Panther, BergesTigers and have direct support of a Panzer division which aid them with Panzer V Panthers.
also the snub nozed Panzer IV Ausf G is the orginal intention of the panzer IV. the Panzer IV Ausf G short barrel 7.5 cm KwK 37 L/24 was intended to be an Anti infintry tank firing low velocity high explosive rounds and directly supporting infintry.
they even have full access to STG44s, FG-42s, and G-43s... weapons only supplied to elite units.
they don't Represent the Großdeutschland, they are a factisious group based upon them. this is because Relic is fearful of portraying the SS with the negative connotations held with the title 'SS'. also because of the stigma of portraying an illegal force as a playable. (the Waffen-SS was found guilty of war crimes after world war 2)
#17
Pyro, your quite right in the most part but i feel i must knit pick on the point;
You mean a Panzer IV Ausf F1 right? The Ausf a through to F1 models had the snubnosed 7.5cm gun thats 24 calibres in length, where as the Ausf G model onwards had the longer 7.5cm gun thats 43 calibres in length. Now i reckon it's the F1 model because AFAIK the A-E models didn't have the turret bin as standard.also the snub nozed Panzer IV Ausf G is the orginal intention of the panzer IV. the Panzer IV Ausf G short barrel 7.5 cm KwK 37 L/24 was intended to be an Anti infintry tank firing low velocity high explosive rounds and directly supporting infintry.
Basically the PE's PzIV IST is a Pzkw IV Ausf F1, while the Wehr's PzIV is a Pzkw IV Ausf G, which when it gets triple vet and the skirts isn't effectively upgraded to the PzkwIV Ausf H.
The F1 was initially infantry support while the Panzer III was to engage enemy tanks. However, by 1944, there are no F1s around because no one used them. They were quickly replaced when it was found that the Panzer III's 50mm gun wasn't doing so well against the Soviet T34s. If there is to be a Panzer IV in game, it should be at least a G or H.
They are depleted because a) they have 3 men squads for no real reason and b) their equipment is some weird mix of obsolete and modern because relic just had to have different races to make the game UBAR AWESUM. They're missing some halftrack variants and they're missing all of their weapon teams. No, I don't give a damn if their in-game halftracks are supposed to be their weapon teams. A heavy machine gun has a much different use than an MG42 mounted on a halftrack meant for recon and command.
BTW: GD was a Heer division, not Waffen SS.
Lehr is not just wordplay. It's the actual group. Here's Josh (the designer of OF)'s own words about it:
"I can see that the inclusion of the word "panzer" leads some to expect "tanks" specifically but by-and-large the Panzer Elite has its fair share of tanks: Panzer IVfs, Wiberwinds and Panthers. It's the Tank Hunters (Marder, Hetzer and Jagdpanther) that gives it its bite.
I always wanted to call the army Kampfgruppe Lehr which is what the unit you fight with in the single-player game is called, but Panzer Elite I think does a better job at defining the army: it's an elite mechanized force. It does not fight with number and a tonne of tanks, but with finesse, skill and speed. "
Which is precisely why the PE Panzer IV looks like they found it in some old army warehouse. It's rusty, dented and hastily repaired. It's perfect for an army mounting a desperate defense and using everything they can get their hands on.However, by 1944, there are no F1s around because no one used them. They were quickly replaced when it was found that the Panzer III's 50mm gun wasn't doing so well against the Soviet T34s. If there is to be a Panzer IV in game, it should be at least a G or H.
What a lot of nonsense I am reading in this thread.
In English 'panzer' means 'german tank'. Simple as. And like the thread said, where are the tanks? Marder is no tank; PIV(IS) is, but can't hold it's own against any other upgunned tank. Oh, there are doctrine specific tank hunters and Panthers if you build your two main buildings and wait until you have 1000 points.
PE dominated by British, who have every make of tank going!!!! Go figure......
What a shame the German faction isn't bound to use the english meaning of the german term.In English 'panzer' means 'german tank'. Simple as. And like the thread said, where are the tanks? Marder is no tank; PIV(IS) is, but can't hold it's own against any other upgunned tank. Oh, there are doctrine specific tank hunters and Panthers if you build your two main buildings and wait until you have 1000 points.
As for your definition of tank - it's pretty much useless. To paraphrase it: "A tank is what I think a tank should be". You exclude the Panzer IV because "it's not good enough", which is just hilarious.
Acctually no...
in German 'Panzer' means 'Armored'...
only in english did 'Panzer' become synonomus with 'Tank'.
the name of German tanks are Panzerkampfwagens. when broken apart it acctually translates into 'Armored Combat Vehical'. however, most would only use the first word of the tank as saying all of it is a bit too much when you are under fire.
Panzer = armor(ed)
kampf = Fight or combat
wagen = vehical
again, the group is based off of a Panzer Grenadier division, like the Großdeutschland Division, whom used Self Propelled guns, Assault guns, and half tracks. hence why there are no Tanks.
Good original film on panzergrenadiers...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKbN6...eature=related
Daton, old model tanks were either scrapped or refurbished to meet the new specifications. There would be no F1s around anywhere. If relic wanted to make sense and have an infantry support tank they should've just given the PE a StuG III model. They were abundant.
They wouldn't have been as cool. Also, it's very reaching to think that a nation under siege would have the flawless infrastructure and bookkeeping to cover every single tank in an area of influence covering, at one point, close to half of Europe.There would be no F1s around anywhere. If relic wanted to make sense and have an infantry support tank they should've just given the PE a StuG III model. They were abundant.
They should still have tiger 1, panzer 4, maybe panzer 3 and werhmacht halftracks with "rooft"
Let me teach you about the fine art of numbers. In roman numerals, you have "I", which stands for 1, then you have "V" which stands for 5... (you also have XCM etc etc...), so you now know 5 and 1... now as you'd have VI, it would mean 5+1 (=6), but since it's IV, it's 5-1 (=4)... So Panzer IV = Panzer 4! Isn't it fun to learn something new?They should still have tiger 1, panzer 4, maybe panzer 3 and werhmacht halftracks with "rooft"
Not quiet.Acctually no...in German 'Panzer' means 'Armored'...
In german "Panzer" means armor or tank. Not "armored", armored would mean "gepanzert". And since it says "Panzer Elite" and not "gepanzerte Elite" the correct translation for Panzer Elite is either Tank Elite or Armor Elite. And both terms make absolutely no sense for the discription of the army/division/whatever. It is just a bad decision by the game designers and nothing more. They should probably just ask some people in the german community (there are quiet a few around) for a good name for a new faction.
I would have probably called them Panzerjagd-Division (Tankhunter-Division) or something like that. Most "tanks" (or "Panzer" whatever you prefer) in the Panzer Elite are tank-destroyers (or Jagdpanzer) anyway.
Actually, by 1944 there where probably no F1s around, because production of even the latest variants (Panzer IV H and Panzer IV J) has been ceased in 1943. So it is highly doubtly imho, that any of those Panzer IV with the short 7,5 cm gun was around in mid-late 1944 in Normandy. It is more likely that most if not all of those tanks have been destroyed in Russia.However, by 1944, there are no F1s around because no one used them. They were quickly replaced when it was found that the Panzer III's 50mm gun wasn't doing so well against the Soviet T34s.
Would make sense indeed. Still i can understand the decision for not giving them Tiger for example, because both factions would share a powerful unit like that.They should still have tiger 1, panzer 4, maybe panzer 3 and werhmacht halftracks with "rooft"
What i don't like though, is the fact, that they made the Jadgpanther a cnc-like mammoth-tank. It's a tankhunter after all. The unit ingame behaves more like a Jagdtiger or Elefant.
Not that I totally care considering this is a game but technically wasn't the sdfkz 251 (the Werhmacht halftrack, and right designation there?) assigned to the Elite units within the German army and the sdfkz 250 assigned to the Werhmacht for use at least late in the war (since I can understand the problem with outfitting vast elite units with new halftracks logistcally due to supply and stuff). Point mainly being that while some units were historically assigned to Elite units firstly and lesser seen in the Werhmacht the Werhmacht ingame haas access to that equipment (take the halftrack example above) and vica versa yet we deal with it even if we don't like it cause this is a game ment to be fun and all.
Regards,
IH
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Just to clarify:..assigned to Elite units firstly and lesser seen in the Werhmacht..
The whole german army (Luftwaffe, Marine, Heer or Airforce, Navy, [ground] Army) is the Wehrmacht.
And as such, every "Elite units" as you say, is a part of the Wehrmacht.
Thats one of the reasons why i think that the discription of the factions is game is totally crap, because there was no other german army then the Wehrmacht in WW2.
OK, there is the Waffen-SS. And i'm not sure if you could consider them to be a part of the Wehrmacht or not but that's not the matter here.
again, no. it is only later that the term 'Panzer' came to mean 'Tank', often because of mistranslated or misineperted text of scholars of later years.
Panzer Means Armor.
if Panzer ment 'Tank' then explain the following:
Schwerer Panzerspähwagen like the Sd.Kfz. 234/2 "Puma".
Sdkfz 251/1 Schützenpanzerwagen, Armored Personal Carrier
Sdkfz 251/3 Funkpanzerwagen, Radio Half-track
Sdkfz 251/6 Kommandopanzerwagen, Command Halftrack
Sdkfz 251/7-I Pionierpanzerwagen, Assault Engineer vehical
Sdkfz 251/8-I Krankenpanzerwagen Armored ambulence
None of these vehicals are 'Tanks'... yet all of them have the word 'Panzer' in them.
He said tank or armor.
Daton: I don't think the Wehrmacht, especially during 1941, would lose tanks due to poor bookkeeping and then find them again in 1944. You know that's absurd to suggest.
That's what I said =P. And yeah, production was supposed to, and did shift over to Panthers.Actually, by 1944 there where probably no F1s around, because production of even the latest variants (Panzer IV H and Panzer IV J) has been ceased in 1943. So it is highly doubtly imho, that any of those Panzer IV with the short 7,5 cm gun was around in mid-late 1944 in Normandy. It is more likely that most if not all of those tanks have been destroyed in Russia.
Exactly what i said in the post that you quoted. Or Tank, for that matter.Panzer Means Armor.
If not, tell me what the german translation for "Tank" would be.
Anyway, the translation Tank = Panzer is definately NOT wrong. Panzer is a short-term for Panzerkampfwagen or the todays term Kampfpanzer.
I never said that a Schützenpanzerwagen would be translated with tank. I just said a a Panzer (the word Panzer, not the meaning in Schützenpanzerwagen) means tank.
technically, the german translation of 'tank' is 'Behälter'...
the word 'Tank' is derived from 'Water Tank' after all. british workers where told that they making large water tanks instead of secret weapons which would turn the tide of the war.
water tank = Wasserbehälter in german
wasser = water
Behälter = Tank. (although it really stands for 'Container')
What does that have to do with the Panzer Elite not being mech. infantry? Your semantics are interesting, but the crux of the argument is missing.Exactly what i said in the post that you quoted. Or Tank, for that matter.
If not, tell me what the german translation for "Tank" would be.
Anyway, the translation Tank = Panzer is definately NOT wrong. Panzer is a short-term for Panzerkampfwagen or the todays term Kampfpanzer.
I never said that a Schützenpanzerwagen would be translated with tank. I just said a a Panzer (the word Panzer, not the meaning in Schützenpanzerwagen) means tank.
The >PANZER< Elite are not about TANKS. Panzer Divisions used COMBINED arms, i.e., tanks + infantry.
Well, actually if you look at the equipment they have, and the way they play, the basis of the panzer elite, rather than being a panzer unit, or even a panzergrenadier unit, seems to be a German armoured recce battalion. It was those units that were issued the smaller Sdffz 250s (which were actually only produced after they were making the larger 251s), which were only meant to hold 6 men (explaining small squad sizes in the game). They were light on the infantry (but had more infantry than similar Allied units, which were often almost entirely armoured cars or light tanks) with lots of fancy weapons. It was recce units that were issued with armoured cars, and they would have been considered 'elite' when compared to most units, seeing as they were well equipped (considering their size and role) and expected to be quick thinking, aggressive and well trained. When used as a the basis of an armoured battlegroup (which they often were by the germans to make up for not having enough mechanised infantry) they would have tanks and other armoured vehicles attached (like tank destroyers).
IN terms of the units they are based on historically I would say a mix of the Panzer Lehr (they have been officially mentioned as a root inspiration), the premier Waffen SS armoured divisions (though they could never admit that publicly) and the 21st panzer. The last is due to the fact that they had been reformed in 1944 with a whole load of mismatched and sometimes downright weird equipment, including left over Panzer IVs with short barreled guns. It was also the only German armoured division to fight on D-Day.
Looks like I've gotta explain it all over again.
To make it clear: Panzer means "tank" or "armour". Trust me, German is my mother tongue.
However, the term "Panzer" is an abbreviation of "Panzerkampfwagen" (armoured fighting vehicle). German is a bit different from English since you can in some situations use the related nouns of a verb in place of the verb. So, instead of saying "gepanzerter Kampfwagen", we say "Panzerkampfwagen".
In the same way this is correct for "Panzerwagen" (armoured car). The actual meaning of this word is "gepanzerter Wagen".
For other words, like "Panzergrenadier" however, it is different. It's not armoured infantry, it's infantry supported by tanks and other armoured vehicles. So the literal translation would be "tank infantry", but we all know that "mechanized infantry" is the common translation.
and you are taught in modern german, which has changed over the years in which Panzer has become synonomus with 'Tank'.
Tank is an English word which only entered the international level after world war 2. before that all nations besides Britian and America called their tanks 'Tracked armored vehicals' or 'Armored fighting Vehicals.'
If panzer means Tank in german...
then what is german for water tank? or Gas tank? or Air Tank?
Trust me, modern german, is nothing like 1940 german military jargon.Trust me, German is my mother tongue.
Ok here is a little lesson in german speech: tank is called panzer in german BUT panzer is also armor like:
Cocktail means a drink AND cocktail means the tail of a cock! 1 word, 2 meanings, understand?
so Water Tank is called Wassertank, Gas Tank is calles Benzintank or short: Tank.
The English word tank is even used in the first WW! The germans called the allied tanks "Tanks" (spoken: "tounges")
Oh yeah. Care to elaborate?
If German is either your mother tongue or the language you studied, you can try to persuade me that I'm wrong, and please in the most perfect German I have ever seen. Otherwise, just shut the hell up 'cause you don't have a clue what you are talking about.
@Pyro Paul:
Why the hell are you stuck on the word "tank"? Of course, when the first British tanks appeared in WWI, the Germans used the term that the Brits have designated, namely "tank". A word which meant and still means the same in both languages. Yeah, these vehicles were known as tanks already in WWI because that was the name of the project, a misdirection to keep the real purpose of these vehicles a secret.
The first German tank to be fielded in WWI was the "Sturmpanzerwagen A7V". Later, as tanks became more and more common all over the world, the German term was changed to "Panzerkampfwagen", typically refered to as "Panzer" in the common German language.
You've got it wrong. Tank is Panzer in German and the other way around in English. Panzer means, as I already said "Panzerkampfwagen", which is "armoured fighting vehicle" in English.
So to sum it up, the word "Panzer" is just an easier way of saying "Panzerkampfwagen" then?However, the term "Panzer" is an abbreviation of "Panzerkampfwagen" (armoured fighting vehicle). German is a bit different from English since you can in some situations use the related nouns of a verb in place of the verb. So, instead of saying "gepanzerter Kampfwagen", we say "Panzerkampfwagen".
Frosty is right. Accurately interpreted in contemporary colloquial useage, the terms "tank" and "Panzer" are synonymous slang subsequently accepted in common use depicting the same thing within each respective language. But translated literally, Panzer does not mean tank if you can discern the nuance? Der Panzer is a proper noun which literally means (military) armour in German, and its deployment in language in the same way we deploy "tank" - whose etymology is not derived from AFV btw - is a contraction of both the term used to describe the original German "tank" the A7V which was originally known as a Sturmpanzerkraftwagen and the term to which the assignation of what we know as "tanks" later shifted to Panzerkampfwagen.
This topic pops up now and then. Its pretty outargued by now. There is realy no strangeness in the names apart from Panzr Elite as its no real military term and only used for coolness. Panzergrenadiers and Kampfgruppe Lehr are real world names thou. PGs are the equivalent of Mechanied Infantry. Kampfgruppe Lehr was a training regiment that was called into duty as they was closest when there was a need. That Panzergrenadiers doesnt translate word for word to Mechanised Infantry is for the same reason that alot of terms used by diffrent countries are diffrent like this. You cant expect the german military to use words that makes sense translated word for word to english, they had no reason to do so.
On the oher hand the PzIVIS is clearly out of place in the game as it was discontinued quite early and rather few produced, so by 44 so would they be mostly gone. On the other hand tanks was almost never scrapped during the war. Even captured tanks was used until they broke or got killed. There was still captured French and Czech tanks in use at the end of the war. Hetzer was buildt on a Czech chassi for instance.
The Hetzer was built on the Panzer 38t chassis. Yes, they were made in Czech plants but it was a German design.
No, the Panzer Lehr Division was a model, elite division, not a mobile school.
Panzergrenadiers are mechanized infantry.
Panzer IVF1s no longer existed in 1944.
You guys are all crazy.
lol of all the information released here this is the only one that made sense.
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http://forums.relicnews.com/showpost...17&postcount=3
For crying out loud, why is this topic changed into some crazy German lessons?
IT'S A GAME, PEOPLE. Christ.
Panzer Elite is just a made up cool name for a new faction! Got any better ideas? Feel free to post them here, but it wouldn't matter anyway.
Just a few more info: Kamfgruppe Lehr in-game is a FICTIONAL group just like Able company.
The PE is most likely based on SS Panzergrenadiere regiments that fought in OMG campaign. (This is also stated in the interview with the developers)
but Panzer Lehr =/= in game kampfgruppen lehr.
which is my aurgument
the fake faction called Kampfguppe lehr in game is a Panzergrenadier division, not a Panzer division. and this fake panzergrenadier division is obviously influenced by the real panzergrenadier division named Großdeutschland Division whom where an elite PzGrenadier unit recieving elite equipment before any other infintry out fit in the war whilst still being apart of the Heer and Whermact. thus not having to use SS influenced factions.
Yes, there is no Pz IV F1s in the game. at the very least the tank has to be an Ausf G version because it is avilable to be upgraded with armored side skirts.
the Panzer IV ausf G being fitted with a snub barreled gun? yeah no idea... the Ausf G was designed specificly to be fitted with the longer 7.5 gun, and all the F1s and F2s would of been modified by this point in time be much like an ausf G.
although i suppose you could say that for the purpouse of of IS they could fit a Panzer IV Ausf G with a snub nozed 7.5 cm gun, i don't really think that it ever happened.
yes, i am crazy like a fox.
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