Grey Knights too early in game.

[Gabriel Angelos]

I belive that Grey Knights can be build very easely compared to other races tier 2 units, wich causes a great disadvantage to the rest of the races.

For example chaos has to build circle of sacrifices in order to build berserkers,Eldar needs support portal to build spiders., Ork needs Pile o gunz etc...

It is very common that th Space marine player attaches a chaplain to a Grey Knight squad wich makes it almost invulnerable to any attack ranged or close combat attack.

One of the most popular case scenarios the answer would be ranged attacks or vehicles but the thing is that at this point you will be most probably tier1 or halfway tier 2, you wont be having the necesary stuff to counter.

I would suggest that could b a good idea to not let the chaplain get attached to the grey knights as the chaplain its actually there to support hes chapter and not the grey knights wich are an individual chapter and their appearence there is as if they where ally contingents etc..
Also making necesary the construction of a tier 2 building wich would make it fair to the other races like Choas or Eldar wich also have to build a tier 2 building and thus making it a little bit more dificult for the sm to rush Grey Knights.

My evidence is on this forums, take a look around and see the great amount of questions on how to counter this rush.

[Jolon]

This rush is very obnoxious. Very very obnoxious. I groan when I see SM just out of the suspicion this is coming.

[s1_ONE]

Bah, if you see only scouts/Fc in t1 you already know that the sm will only go for ivan+gk rush, at this point just harass & decap as many point as you can.. the sm will find himself with gk+chappy & no eco..
They are very resilient, but if you catch em once they come with 3 members 1x ranger/DR can take em down with ease

[Golden Dragoon]

What s1_ONE said ^^

[Just8KB8]

Why oh why are ppl always ONLY looking at the small picture. Its all about the bigger picture.

SM has a very crappy T1. Almost any race can give SM a really nasty time in T1. The early GK+Chap rush is almost the only way to be able to hold your ground. Dont forget that GK+Chap-rush eats hard in your Req so there is a downside to it (it slows your tech). So saying that this has to be nerfed is just too easy and smallminded...

Atleast tell us what tactic we should use then against every race when this nerf is being brought into the game. Cause i dunno how to counter the early cheap tech-rush of Chaos (early vehicles + mass infantry) or the mass infantry-spam of IG (more units then your SM Tacs can handle) or the Flayed Ones-spam of Necron (especially this one due to the morale damage vs SM Tacs) then.

Making it harder to get the GK+Chap-combo on the field should atleast mean that the SM tac squads should get a major buff in early game damage or durability (i.e. give them the Wargear: Targeters or Bionics from start) so SM will still be viable in T1. But i can now predict already that there will be a whole bunch of players that then will start with crap like:
*rant on* "OMFG WTFROFL! SM is waaaay too OP in T1 !1!!!1!?" *rant off*

[Zaark]

"Also making necesary the construction of a tier 2 building wich would make it fair to the other races like Choas or Eldar"

FFS eldar vs sm is not fair no matter how good gk+ivan combo is, sounds like rant to me. Eldar should have no troubles with sm atm, eldar t1 can easily take out gk's. All races can counter gk tech, come on. I have done it several times in mirror matches with sm's crappy t1.

That said, I'm not really against moving gk to sacred artifact BUT this requires buffs to sm's t1 and cost reduction to gk's to something like 60/10. Currently they cost so much because they come out so early.

On another note I really don't understand why sm hb comes in t2 and not in t1.5 like chaos. I think it would be good idea to move hb to t1.5 with reduced dmg and then they would scale to t2 but with little less dmg vs heavy inf/veh low/building low compared to what they have now vs those with target finders. Plasma would remain same in t2 but get another uppgrade to let them scale to t3. This doesn't have to be big uppgrade. I don't really see any point in having sm plasma an hb being so similar.

Anyways, this would be t1.5 buff and wouldn't fix sm t1. That needs price reduction on fc, auto infil probes and some fixes to other races t1.

[GRIM Ripper]

imo easy solution to grey knights would be to make then unattachable and have them built in the sacred artifact.

as far as SM t1 goes, supposedly in SS they are splitting up bionics again... perhaps having the first upgrade in t1 to allow an armory build before going t2?

[Arcinatus]

making them require a sacred artifact would make sense to me. but if u do this there has to be a weee lil change to the unit itself as well. dunno what ... making em stronger might be a bit...overwhelming..but..w/e. any thoughts?

[ApocalypseXL]

I'm just gonna say that shame for your frrum name and shame for being so inexperienced . Just because you now favor a new race dosen't mean that you can use the name of Gabriel Angelos to wage forum wars .

Greys are Allied forces aka Auxiliary so if anything they coud be deployed even faster . Look at the Vespid and kroot , they are avaible at t1 . GK + Ivan are easy to counter if you know how to play if not whining on the forums won't help it .

[GRIM Ripper]

they actually are NOT "easy" to counter. yeah you can kill them, but especially in low resource games or small maps (where stronger units are better, even if they are more expensive) they are very tough. often you can get out GK and chap before you are able to kill a 2nd LP no matter how fast you rush. they are good at range, have an excellent crowd control ability, and are durable -- they pwn commanders and most t1/t2 alike, are immune to morale, and can disrupt. throw a chap in the mix and they are almost indestructible in that phase of the game. im not saying theyre super OPed... but they have issues imo.

an alternative to doing any drastic changes like moving them to another building or something, i would be satisfied if their commander damage was nerfed pretty hard... ie 1/2, maybe even 1/3 of what it is now (i believe its about 40-45 dps right now? so it would still be at a reasonable 15 dps after this nerf).

[War-Reborn]

The chaplin was un-attachable it was called version 1.1 and everybody complained (rightly so) as commander to squad attachments are part of the fun of dow, and SM commanders are actually somewhat designed around squad attachment, as they have many benfits & upgrades that lend them to this role.

So please dont start suggesting retro grade steps that are going to lessen the fun of dow, if there is a valid argument to made for nerfing GK, then they can be moved to the SA or the chappy can be moved to the SA, leave the commander attachment ability alone

Sorry but this sounds to me like another i got beat by a guy who can't possibly have outplayed me, an therefore the game must be imbal, sorry but unless you have like a 1600 point autoscore i can't see how you can be complaining about imbalance

[GRIM Ripper]

i have about mid 1500s auto... thats good enough for balance suggestions imo -- besides, the sole factor for determining imbal is not based on auto score... otherwise unless you're 1600 YOU wouldnt have a valid opinion on why the GK should NOT be unattachable, or furthermore an opinion on how GK should be changed at all. or how about... "it sounds to me like you're just a SM noob who likes to hard tech to GK + chap, and its gotten you a few wins so you don't want to touch them." pretty gay huh? stick to making valid arguments please.

and its not a "retro" nerf at all... having the GK attachable is like having MANZ attachable... they'd be too strong (and i never said anything about nerfing or changing the chaplain... leave him attachable, but make GK unnattachable). one of the only things that OPs the GK is when its in combination with the chaplain... on their own they're just a good unit... with the chap they're almost indestructible until you hit some resemblance of critical mass of high dps ranged.

[ApocalypseXL]

He're one for you :

If GK are nerfed how many SM guys will whine about no counter for zerks ?

[Golden Dragoon]

On another note I really don't understand why sm hb comes in t2 and not in t1.5 like chaos.

SM get flamers instead of Heavy Bolters thats why, i'd prefer it being different I don't want SM + Chaos having the same kind of things in the same tier.

GK's are strong but not imba, they can be imba if fast teched to but still killable.

Solution is make it so you need Sacred Artifact to purchase them. Then people can't fast tech to them as easily.

[War-Reborn]

Ok maybe i was being a bit harsh on the guy, but the points raised remain valid, GK are a small squad, there not that hard to kill without the chaplin, in tier 3 the chap is a mandatory requirement for using them in combat or they just die to fast, by removing the attachment you basically make GK useful for a short period in tier 2 and thats it, there effectiveness later in the game will be severly limited as they are to small a squad and to easy to kill with focus fire in tier 3, without commander attachment

Commander attachments are part of the fun, there are other ways to nerf GK if it even needs to be done, other than removing a cool feature, thats fun & useful, you can either simply push either the chap or GK back to later point in the game, or nerf GK stats a little

Fair point on the autoscore, that came out wrong, the point i was trying to make is that at the lower end of the ladder, the outcome of a game is decided primarily on skill, it's only at the top ends when both players are doing things more or less optimally for each race that imbalances can start to influence things, while imbal has an affect at all skill levels the lower you go the lower it's influence

I'm not arguing GK with a chappy are hard to deal with, but being hard does not = imbal, SM have a weak tier 1, and there are plenty of replays on dow sanc of GK being taken down

[ImmortalChaos]

My GK changes:

Moved To sacred artifact.
Many complain they come out too fast; I agree. IMO, on top of slowing them down, it makes the second T2 building much more viable as well as making way more fluff sence.

Inital cost moved back to 180/180, reinforce cost remains at 60/30.
IMO, the fact that the first 3, who come with holocaust, have the ability but dont cost any extra is madness. The ability, which, does not quite rape like it did in 1.11, is still a bit OTT for something you dont pay any exra for. This also makes the GKs harder to get because you'll need some gens to get them; fast teching to them wont be easy.

Ranged damage halved, melee damage increased by 50%.
Another problem is how much punishment they can deal out at range. For things that are supposed to be melee specialists, they are 90% more often used to shoot T1 units than to melee them, and the fact that it is so effective is crazy IMO. Also, units like zerks, FOs, and nobs beat them in melee, quite badly in fact. IMO, GKs should be changed from a unit that is really tough and shooty to a unit that is really tough, and rediculously powerful in melee- if it catches you, it WILL hurt you. This also makes the furious charge ability a much buy.

Now, if all of these were done, GKs would need some buffs in other areas, but IMO they are all good ideas to fix them.

[White_Pointer]

Given how powerful SM tier 2 already is though ImmortalChaos (it's arguably the best tier 2 in the game once they get all their upgrades going), do we really need GK's to be more powerful than they already are? Something to think about at least.

White_Pointer

[ApocalypseXL]

Mele damage incresed by 50% woud make a lot more ppl cry . If you whant to see the Avatar or Bloodthrisder cry because of Greys and 1-2 suport tacs go ahead .

If you whant to avoid the GK rush and help the noobs that cry about it and don't lisen to any advices just increase their build time from 30 sec to 90 sec .

That shoud do the trick .

[ImmortalChaos]

Well, The daemon damage would probably have to stay the same, or even possibly be nerfed. Its rediculously good.

However, IMO the reduction of ranged damage and increase in melee damage is more of a nerf than a buff- It just makes GKs counterable by dancing, but keeps their usefulness by being sheer rape in melee.

Numbers dont have to be exactly as I wrote, I mean, everything requires tweaking. Its the idea that counts for balance.

[Creslyn]

Problem with that idea is that you'll basically just be giving SM their own sorc+chains+zerks with the chappy+shout+ubermeleegk. You'll end up getting just as many complaints, just with a different focus. Honestly, all they really need is the nerf thats been suggested since this was first brought up, pretty much. Just make them build from the sacred artifact. It's basically an increase in build time + cost, but ONLY for gk, without hurting the rest of SM (you're still going to get the SA anyway right? Just a bit quicker now if you want GK soon).

[ImmortalChaos]

Even if they get a full 50% melee buff (which I would have to say should be more like 25-30%) they wont be as devisstating as zerks+chains, simply because demo shout still lets them move a little. They would actually be worse at killing shouted targets because their shooting wont be so damned good.

[War-Reborn]

GK an shout are not as good as chains because GK do knockback attacks unlike zerks, while knockbacks can be very useful in disrupting lots of troops, (IG CS a great example of this) it also means the dmg you do in CC at least initially is generally lower, zerks go in an start doing there dmg right away, GK tend to knock everyone over with there first blow an then start doing the hurt after everyones got back up.

GK are one squad and you need to look at it in the context of the game overall not just in a vacum of 1 squad standing out as being very good on it's own, when compared to other races, SM may have a strong tier 2 comparatively, but that is counteracted by a relatively weaker tier 1, not everyones tiers are equally strong, and all tiers are not equally strong relative to each other either, some races have better tiers relative to others, just as they have weaker tiers relative to others, SM tier 2 is strong relative to others because SM tier 1 is weak relative to others.

GK are only an issue if you don't press a SM player in tier 1, if you let them go through tier 1 unmolested chances are your going to be in trouble in tier 2, countering a unit or strategy is not just about seeing a unit on the field an then deciding what your going to to about it, it's about pre-empting units or strategies before they happen, in the case of SM it's easy, tier 2 is strong, so make your mark in tier 1 when there at there most vunrable and you can pull an advantage on them

Take IG GK totaly pwn GM, for 4 reasons,
GM have the worst armour class
GM have low HP so spells like PI need only 2 or 3 blasts to kill an entire squad
Even on ranged were GK do much less dmg than in melee, GM still drop like flies
Chappy with shout an healing aura means GM's struggle to put a dent in these beats

Yet SM are at a disadvantage vs IG because while GK are scary for GM, GM can put the hurt on SM in tier 1, meaning when GK show up you have the critical mass needed to put them to the sword, yes if you don't put proper pressure on in tier 1 then come tier 2 those GK will pwn your GM everytime as you won't have the leverage that you need, but thats not imbal.

An agressive tier 1 is how you counter SM's strong tier 2, if your having a quiet tier 1, and your not pushing the SM player, then you are not going to be able to counter GK, an thats why people IMO have so much trouble with countering them, there looking for a unit to build that makes GK go away, for some races a unit is on hand to do that, for races like IG for example, SM tier 2 , which includes chappy/GK HW tacs etc you beat those units in tier 1, but pressing your advantage to get into a stronger postion so that when this stuff arrives you can put it to the sword

[ApocalypseXL]

Since you're comparing zerks whit GK , chos can fiel multiple zerks whit GK are just 1 squad , also if you look at the numbers you'll see that a zerk squad can actualy counter a GK squad .

I guess that there aren't to many chaos players of something . But as a SM even when i have my GK out and ready the blody zerks give me the chills. Infact against chaos i chose necrons rather then have my army tore up by zerks .

Also IM not a big expert in IG but aren't guardsmens whit launchers a good counter for GK ?

[phoenixzs]

Also IM not a big expert in IG but aren't guardsmens whit launchers a good counter for GK ?

Ehemmm NO?! .GK rape guardsmen they quickly close in also and holocoust beside the harlequin is what makes you say "there goes another squad"

Apart from IG part I dont want to see GK more melle oriented they are what they should be right now with one cap.They are also good when they are set to range and thats what those psye canons are for.

I really hated the Curse of maschine spirit turn into a EMP grenade that looses the idea of having different races.A GK is not a berzeker squad and it shouldnt be actually.

My solution would be a more "normal" spacemarine development.Pull some abilities down to tier 1 for SpaceMarines and make GK require sacred artifact and maybe their reinforcement time could go up a little.

[Sir_Suckalot]

C’mon guys grey knights are just fine. They cost a lot of power, so if you inflict some casualties to them the sm player will not be able to produce vehicles and reinforce the gk squad at the same time, and the chaplain is very expensive both in requisition and build time… kill him and the sm player will never recover.

When a sm player goes for grey knights + chaplain he is putting all his hope in a single squad, which is a “double edged” weapon.

[s1_ONE]

ive recently beaten in auto gayknights+FC &chappy later with 1x DRs+fs & 1 Gu+lock...
For the chappy boost i needed also a harlie+lp2 tho

Anyway atm they are fine, xcept maybe for the chappy..

[SpArTy]

This topic annoys me. I see a lot of 'SM tier 2 is so strong', 'gk are so strong'. Wrong wrong wrong. SM has to shell out a hell of a lot of resources to create a competent fighting force, which when upgraded are very formidable, best t2? Far from it. Give eldar a play.T3 rolls on so fast these days, all that flashy gear and research is made obsolete in seconds.

For those that moan about GK you must understand they are the only thing holding competitive SM together. The simple change would be to cheapen GK but prevent Chap + GK being combined. Try playing without them combined in a typical game (1v1).

As for the players who rush to GK, SS is slowing down the tech. Harrassing helps.

I am tired messy post -.-

[White_Pointer]

Maverick, if you don't believe SM tier 2 is strong you are kidding yourself. Once all the upgrades and heavy weapons kick in (which admittedly can take a while...but once it does...) SM tier 2 is borderline imbalanced and actually quite capable of beating the tier 3 of some other races. It's generally accepted that SM's tier 2 is very strong once it gets going...the problem of course if getting that far, and that's where Grey Knights come in. In current DC the Grey Knights are there to fill the gap while the upgrades and heavy weapons kick in.

White_Pointer

[Vytae]

SM t2 is best in the game period.

And chappy/gk rush is shit for competitive play because agressive players will decap all your shit before your gks are out. However a FC + a lp2 ---> to chappy/gk is fricking brutal depending against what race. And in team games,where fast gk/chappy rush works because you cant do an all out decap for fear of the same happening from his buddy to you. Then,the gk/chappy rush is fucking brutal.

Honestly,increase Gk buildtime to 45 seconds and nerf ranged damage a tad (they should not be out-shooting multiple FW squads + tc.even if the SM is good enough to keep his gen alive that long) and combo is fine.

[Verdius]

While I'll leave the GK discussion to the rest of you I would like to comment on the T2 thing that's been going around the last few posts.

Basically I just spent a three hour skirmish against the computer, insane, who for whatever reason only build SM squads with heavy bolters. Does anyone here know what that's like? It wasn't so much of a bolter wall as it was a death sentence. I had my entire Chaos army's first attack destroyed by it. Daemon prince, blood thirster, all the good stuff was out there and was eventually beaten down by just assloads of bolter fire. Even my armor was taken down by it.

It wasn't until my third march that I finally managed to get through (set all of my facilities on spam and on site of the battle) and even then i didn't kill them all they just fell back.

I'm only thankful they didn't decide to start using OB or making vehicles or else tacking them on would've been a sad dream.

Maybe I suck with Chaos, they're not exactly my favorites, but it was certainly a real job taking out that comp. So there's definetly something going for SM T2.

[ApocalypseXL]

WEll if you don't mind the wall of fire is the supreme SM tactic . This is what battle brothers are supose to do , whidout it you can just remove the SM from the game .

Also you got to remember that SM will not advance to fast to t3 because the're isn't to much there that will help you . You got to pour in t4

As for GK they are the only viabile close combat squad for SM why , ASM & AST are eiter outmeleed easy or too slow to be of any value .

GK are fine how they are ATM , and trowords an experienced player the GK rush is as usefull as the comander rush in t1. 1unit/squad will never make the diference it will just get crushed .

[MoschBoy]

GK are fine how they are ATM , and trowords an experienced player the GK rush is as usefull as the comander rush in t1. 1unit/squad will never make the diference it will just get crushed .

yeah, 1 unit never makes the difference........ 3 GU squads +WL wont be able to defeat a tac mass.... but pop 1 harly hout and things look differently....yeah, 1 unit doesnt count.

[s1_ONE]

hahahaha... you dont need a harlie.. just the fs+ranger+Gu+lock+nades... ^^

Anyway back on topic: sm t2 the strongest?
... no way tau/eldar/ig(not sure bout ig..) are far better

@ Verdius: just mass some defiler on hold ground stance.. then go with some zerkers/chains of doom.. ^^

[zsoci]

LOL??? Tau/Eldar/IG T2 far better than Sm??? God, nope!!! Gk+Chappy, a rhino with 3 Full Tactical in heavy weapon under Smoke effect, Librarian with Smite, Hellfire Dread, Dread, LS can handle all Situation...

[ImmortalChaos]

GU beat unupgraded tacs for cost with mysticism.

As for the most powerful T2, SM is definately a compeditor- They have some of the most options and if T3 is completely gone than SM will win every match, but, SM cant get all its T2 goodies before the T3 race is over, and even all its T2 goodies wont save it from some T3 crap.

However, tau and eldar certainly give them a run for their money-

Eldar with getting their elites in T2.5 rather than T3 (bar not quite as powerful) as well as WL spam being extremely effective, and tau with TC traps+uber disruption/FW hilarious range+damage/SS stun and the imba dispencer (harbinger).

[s1_ONE]

IG with running priests meleeing everything they can see... mass gm w/ HW+priest/commie>execute exploit, CotMS, HWT, & assorted vehicles.. a bit expensive but not bad at all..
btw , mass nades>mass HBs even if marines are in cover... without thinking about chimmy drop in front of the rhino, maybe after a CotMS well placed...

IM not sure about orks, but i guess they can be as powerful as sm t2.. i mean, mass stormies, trukk/wartrakk, kanz, nobz, manz... without thinking also about improved BS from previous tiers...

zsoci: i can laugh @ your 3x tac with HW + smite... 3x WSs can handle the situation very good, plus fragons grant a good AV/AB solution.. without thinking about vypers/cow shees or falcon with 2x harlies...

[ApocalypseXL]

Hmm eldar t2 is indeed a thing that brought my tacs dead in their tracks in early t2 .

You might have a point s1_ONE

[War-Reborn]

HW+priest/commie>execute exploit? which exploit would that be, execute does not work on HW an executed las gun dmg with a preist attached is barely above executed lasgun dmg without him

I don't really agree that Nades > HB, it's totaly situation dependant, while they outrange HB, HB range is right at the edge of the screen viewing distance, so taking advantange of that extra range is not as easy as you might think, also because of the huge GM footprint, some of the squad can easily be in range of the HB when you manouver into postion, transports also counter nades well as you can move in under there effective firing range, i'm not saying nades are not effective but saying they > HB is a bit to broad a term

[GRIM Ripper]

i would have to agree SM t2>all. they are the only T2 which can quite effectively deal with other races t3... the best SM players i play against are the ones who forego quick t3 and actually build up their t2. just look at vs orks for ex... 2 asm to tie up gitz (which you dont even need all the time), + 3 squads of decked out SM in a rhino will pretty much rape. yeah it costs a dick load, but thats fine because it gets the job done... and then when you DO get to T3, SM is that much more powerful bc they have SUCH a nasty t2 force still left over.

also, saying SM t1 is weak so their t2 has to be powerful is a weak argument, and a poor way to balance. if their t1 is weak, thats its own issue. imo each tier has to be more or less balanced, otherwise the interracial matchups will be gimped... for ex if one race had an AWESOME T1 and crap T3, they would almost always win against a race with a crap T1 and awesome T3 assuming equal play.

besides, supposedly SM t1 is getting a buff in the form of "viable armory builds" in SS (supposedly they split up the bionics upgrades into 2 seperate ones).

[Vytae]

Its not just Bolters that make SM t2 awesome,its the sheer versatility. They get fast mobile armor,walkers then can tie up squads (including inf av squads),bolters,plasma and tac missles if they get caught out by armor. Throw in gks and sacred artifact and wow.

IG with running priests meleeing everything they can see... mass gm w/ HW+priest/commie>execute exploit, CotMS, HWT, & assorted vehicles.. a bit expensive but not bad at all..

You do realize that a priested fully upgraded HW gm squad costs over 800 req and 200 power? And gets annihalted trying to close with a 5man SM bolter squad which costs about half. Anytime a IG has a plasma mass its because you let him. is not like big shootas where you cant stop it

[War-Reborn]

But the tiers are not equal and the game is clearly not balanced on a individual tier by tier basis, chaos tier 3 is far better than SM's if you compare what you get in it PSM/Oblits to ASS terms an terms

SM tier 2 goes on for longer an is stronger, due to the way terms fit into your lineup, PSM/Oblits kinda takeover as the main frontline units when they arrive, terms while still taking the lead tend to slot into your army more, rather than become the army so to speak

[s1_ONE]

Vytae read the whole post: plasmas can be used only with chimmy drop... i know that 5 HBs can rape my gm....

[MoschBoy]

chaos tier 3 is far better than SM's if you compare what you get in it PSM/Oblits to ASS terms an terms

thats not true. early tier 3 chaos is better, because it gets its goodies faster and without the need to upgrade. however, SM tier 3 with Wote and the termies combined with SM tier 2 really IS superior to chaos tier 3. problem is just that it takes longer to get going.

[War-Reborn]

Chaos also get cloaked CSM an plasma in tier 3, but i hear what your saying and you are right SM tier 3 is fine once you get going, but the speed an ease at which you can get going as chaos IMO gives it the edge

Be interesting to see what SS has changed, in regards the general teck speed

[s1_ONE]

sm t2 with chappy/gk can handle pretty well chaos t3.. you need skill tho

[Xtreme]

Nerf commander damage and disallow attachments. Otherwise GKs are fine.

[Zaark]

Disallowing attachment would make gk not worth 60/30. They just die way too fast without him, at least if you try to melee anything.

[ImmortalChaos]

They have 800 HP. A SM tac with whatever heavy weapon costs 80/10 and has something like 500 HP.

They are quite worth their cost IMO.

[War-Reborn]

Nerf commander damage and disallow attachments. Otherwise GKs are fine.

GK need the commander attachment ability, otherwise you nerf there late game use totaly, 800hp might sound a lot till you factor in the squad size of 6 men, as soon as HW start to get maxed out, GK last about 5 seconds unless they have a commander beefing them up, 4800hp of H Med armour is fine in early tier 2, but late tier 2/tier 3 onwards when squads are packing 250+ dps they are bought down easily without a commander attachment to beef them up

I don;t think there's really much wrong with GK, SM are not overpowered and are not hard to pressure in tier 1.
If GK do get nerfed i hope they use a more elegant approach than that.

A SM tac is not a CC unit, it can sit back at 30+ range an blast away, GK are a CC unit and as such more often than not find themselves in range of every gun on the opposing side