Panzer Lehr

[mooky32]

Might be old news but I heard one of my PE units saying words to the effect that "Kampfgruppe Lehr was ready for action"

Obvious conclussion that the PE are meant to represent the Panzerlehrdivision in the game. Lehr were heavily involved in Caen so it makes sense.
Interesting as Panzerlehr were a Heer division which of course means they did not fall under the remit of the Waffen SS.

Might have been a politcally more correct choice on the behalf of the developers to steer away from the Waffen SS divisons and the associated war crimes linked to some of that arm (Das Reich being a prime example).

I had always assumed the PE were a Waffen SS unit and it seems not. Just a little observation for the WW2 nuts amongst us!

[Coramoor]

that would be the case, if you'd play the campaign you'd notice this

i don't understand the fear of some kind of rehash, sure the waffen SS weren't the nicest people in the world, but aside from the SS who ran the death camps, most of the war crimes were committed during the retreat anyway, and as anyone who knows war history knows, a lot of war crimes are committed on the retreat, since you can't hold prisoners and are basically fleeing as fast as possible, or if you want to look at the battle of the bulge as an example, another situation where prisoners would've been too much of a burden

the Russians killed hundreds of thousands of germans instead of capturing them during the encirclement of the 6th army in Stalingrad

I've never really spent much time looking at the American/British side but i doubt it's crystal clear clean either

war is brutal, and stuff happens that really shouldn't, but as long as you aren't referring to something like Auschwitz or something along those lines, there is no reason you shouldnt be able to implement the german elite troops into the game in one way or another

is relic going to avoid referencing the army that killed all the germans in the capture of the 6th army, because that was a very brutal episode, although the russians always were

what about if the game ever moves to a pacific campaign

idk, i think people are generally a little oversensitive about what you can reference and what you can't

stay away from death camps and you should be fine

[LowlyGrunt]

No-one knows what PE are supposed to be. Not even Relic.

The other German team are 'Wehrmacht' - so if PE aren't Wehrmacht then what are they? The obvious answer is SS, especially as their single-player campaign is Market Garden which as I understand was defeated mainly by SS mobile divisions (could be wrong though).

They can't be called SS though, as in Germany (and there are lots of Germans playing) including anything explicitly Nazi in a videogame is against the law. And while playing as Wehrmacht you can just tell yourself that your troops are ordinary men sent out to die by evil Hitler, it's... more difficult to think that of the SS.

Best not to think about it too hard.

[Coramoor]

THQ is american

[Caesar]

The 2nd SS Panzer Corp and Fallschirmjägers did most of the fighting at Market Garden. The Panzer Lehr Division fought in the Normandy campaign almost to its own destruction. So, if anything, the Panzer Elite are a poor representation of the 2nd or perhaps 9th SS while the Wehrmacht are more than likely the Panzer Lehr. Of course, the Wehrmacht have the most units to match what the Lehr did.

On war crimes: The majority of the Waffen-SS divisions were implicated in war crimes. As far as I know, only the Wiking and Nordland divisions were never implicated in any war crimes. The Heer itself was also ruled a criminal organization for its role in aiding the behind the lines police and SS forces and of course for either killing or mistreating prisoners and executing villagers in response to partisan activities in Russia. Of course, there are shining examples of honrable generals and divisions within the Heer that refused to aid them or do what they saw as "damaging to the honor of the German army." Notably, Field Marshall Rommel, General Guderian, Seydlitz, and divisions like the 1st Infantry Division or all of the Fallschirmjägers.

It's a very complicated topic. I suggest you find your own way through war crimes and make up your own mind.

Of course, both the Soviets and Western Allies are hardly innocent either. But that's a different story.

War sucks.

[mooky32]

Not played campaign yet, so yup that would have helped.

Your points are interesting but to be fair in the case of Stalingrad the 6th army did resist the Soviets with everything they had, in the cases of some Waffen SS units till the last bullet. The Soviets had to be merciless, they expected nothing less in return.
The fate of the over 100, 000 German prisoners the Soviets did eventually take is a more brutal story with few ever returning home again.

From a purisits point of view it would be nice to see Waffen SS based units but I don't see it happening and to be honest I can't blame the developers.
The victors write history and the atrocities commited by a few Waffen SS units means their inclusion in a future game could cause a significant outcry.

[Panzer Jager]

Kampfgruppe Lehr is different than Panzer Lehr.

The Panzer Lehr are a mish-mash faction based on the 9th SS Panzer Grenadier division Hohenstaufen and some Fallschirmjager units fighting in Operation Market Garden.
They however do not wear Waffen SS uniforms, or for that matter the uniform of the Panzer Lehr.
Panzer Lehr troops wore a very distinct uniform. Panzer Grenadiers in CoH do not wear it.

[LowlyGrunt]

Sorry, I must have been confusing THQ with someone else. Edited.

But I just gotta say this:

"atrocities commited by a few Waffen SS units". Pah. Enforcing Nazi race-policy was the purpose of the SS, hence the Nuremburg Trials condemned them as 'inherently criminal'. As Caesar pointed out only TWO SS units were never implicated. I've already seen the 'clean Wehrmacht' myth aired on these forums, a 'clean SS' would be too much.

As for the victors writing history,this is sort of true; no-one came out of World War 2 with clean hands. Hiroshima, Dresden, Katyn Forest... but even so, no hands were dirtier than those of the Nazi Party. If they'd been the victors writing history we wouldn't even know about the death camps.

Sorry if that seems like an outburst. As I said... best not to think about it too hard.

[TinyFlyz]

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Dachau...ersKilled.html

Noone is clean in war

[Mirage Knight]

Kampfgruppe Lehr never even existed.

On the topic of Panzer Lehr - known also as 130. Panzer Lehr Division - they were an elite Panzer Division, not a Kampfgruppe, and under the control of the regular army. The division was one of a handful that had its own heavy tank and tank destroyer battalions. It was formed from various training and demonstration units and as such was equipped with top of the line vehicles (it was one of only 4 divisions to be equipped with the SdKfz 234 Puma), weaponry, and equipment...something normally reserved for Waffen SS units.

As far as I know, the men of Panzer Lehr wore the same uniforms as normal Heer and Waffen SS units. Unlike Waffen SS and elite divisions such as Pz. Gd. Grossdeutschland, the jackets and tunics worn by Lehr personnel did not have a cuff band.

[mooky32]

Panzer Jager.
No confusion here. The fact is at Caen Lehr were not defined as a Kampfgruppe, fast forward to the Ardennes offensive for that. That much is true but its 100% the case that the developer has defined PE as Panzer Lehr (wrong battle group designation aside).

Yup the uniform is not acurate etc but we are down to nit picking at that level. They are a not bad representation of panzergrenadiers so well done devs!

Also if I was being unclear I am certainly not advocating Waffen SS units in the game , hell no. I think we must use some sensitivity here.

One last thing , minor annoyance folks shouldn't refer to SS units when they mean Waffen SS. These are two completely different bodies.

[Coramoor]

lowlygrunt

the wehrmacht were as clean as any army is, cleaner then the soviets in many respects and no nastier then the American and British forces

the SS were not clean, but they were the true German elite

as it's said the victor writes the history, but sometimes people just need to grow up and realize it's in the past and very few of Germany's true elite went along with it

most of the true generals had no part in the atrocities and many of them were killed or forced to kill themselves after participating in attempts to kill Hitler, Field Marshall Rommel being the prime example in this case

The funny thing about these wars are, i bet if the pentagon files on WW2 were ever fully released, we'd find out about a lot of the same things happening, i've read books written about the spy war of ww2 and a lot of the general spent most of 1944 on the italian front trying to get them and their troops out of the war, including the SS divisions, most of the crimes were committed by a select few

if you ever get the chance, read the William B Breuer books

people act all high and mighty but their side was just as bad, it's just cause the americans and british won that their stories have never come to light

war is a disgusting thing, We only know about the russian things because of the crumbling of the USSR

War is not clear cut, Most of the german soldiers were just fighting for the fatherland, the SS included, On top of which, the majority of the remaining SS divisions were taken out of commision during the battle of the bulge

[mooky32]

Mostly right Mirage but the Lehr Division did have a very different uniform from regular Heer or Waffen SS units.
Imagine the tradional Waffen SS panzergrenadier camo smock and trousers but without the camo. It was in a light olive green colour and slightly more fitted. There was a large single lapel that was worn dressed to the right. It was quite distinct.

[LowlyGrunt]

Look, I never said the Allies were spotless, in fact I specifically said they weren't. And I really, really didn't mean to suggest that Mooky was a Nazi apologist or anything like that. But what he said made it sound as if the SS were spoiled by a few bad apples, which sort of pissed me off.

That's all. I'm over it now.

[Omega-333]

TinyFlyz,
I doubt pointing out the execution of SS AT A CONCENTRATION CAMP is similiar to the executions carried out at Babi Yar, Warsaw, and Malmedy. Doesn't mean that it's right, but doesn't mean that the Allies* were as dirty as the SS.

*Allies does not mean Soviet Union, a belligerent and initial ally of the Axis

[Gerle]

the wehrmacht were as clean as any army is, cleaner then the soviets in many respects and no nastier then the American and British forces

Which is why this entry exists:
War crimes of the Wehrmacht Note how many of these crimes were committed during offensive as opposed to defensive actions.

the SS were not clean, but they were the true German elite

Sure, some divisions were very good, then there were units like this one: 13th Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Handschar 1st Croatian

About your earlier entry regarding THQ being American, if you want to sell games in France and Germany, just to name two countries with strict anti-Nazi laws, you have to follow these laws.

[Sturmhaubitze]

This thread will likely get locked soon enough, as the mods don't like historical discussion of WW2 if it doesn't stay completely on topic with Company of Heroes.

Anyways, with that disclaimer, I'll throw in my two cents.

While the Waffen SS were the military branch of the SS, and the Nazi party by extension, it wasn't universally a force of racists and murderers. To think that is absurd and grossly overgeneralizing.

During the war, the Waffen SS were made out to be the elite of the military. Sure there was more ideological aspects to it as well, but they really tried to play up the Waffen SS as the new Teutonic Knights, crusading across Europe to create a new greater German empire. Some of them got more zealous than most and committed war crimes during their duty. Others showed incredible restraint and honour, figuring that if they were better than everyone else than they should act it too. The Waffen SS as a whole were incriminated by being part of the SS and the Nazi party, though this broad condemnation doesn't mean you couldn't find professional and honourable soliders in their ranks.

If you want the real monsters, look to the non-military sections of the SS, like the Gestapo.

Also take any research on war crimes with a grain of salt. History is written by the victors. This doesn't mean the Germany military was clean, what it does mean is that Allied war crimes have largely gone unreported. Every nation committed them, and there's at least one reported crime for every nation (ie. two incidents where Italian soldiers were executed by American troops, one incident where Canadian soldiers executed a German artillery crew, etc.). Not everyone that goes through the hell of war comes out with their honour intact.

[Noir]

Every nation committed them, and there's at least one reported crime for every nation (ie. two incidents where Italian soldiers were executed by American troops, one incident where Canadian soldiers executed a German artillery crew, etc.). Not everyone that goes through the hell of war comes out with their honour intact.

Don't forget the Reichenau Order and the post war rape of millions of German women by Russian troops.

[HellToupee]

commando order, commissar order...

[Pyro Paul]

the Panzer Elite is a fictional combat unit based on the 'on paper' description of a elite Panzergrenadier division.

historically there was no such unit active in west front which could tot that claim, as most panzergrenadier divisions where not very mechinized depending on horse drawn wagons and towed emplacement weapons, although they where supposed to be using Halftracks and mobile self propelled guns.


it is very possible to have 2 diffrent armies under the same thing.

for instance, currently you have 'US' Faction as one of the allied forces. however you could also add a US Marine Corps faction to the game because the USMC offers such a drastic diffrence in strategy, tactics, and game play than the standard side presented... in which you would have 2 'US' Factions presented...

the same thing applies to the Wehrmacht and Panzer Elite. both are german Army, but both offer very diffrent play styles, tactics, and strategies.

[Sturmhaubitze]

Panzer Lehr Division was organized as follows:

One Panzer regiment, with one Panzer IV H battalion, one Panther battalion, and one Radio-controlled Tank company (StuG III Gs, Tiger I Es, and a few unreliable pre-production Kingtigers, with radio-controlled Borgward BIV demolition tanks). Each battalion had their own pioneers, Flakpanzer 38ts (imagine a Marder III M with a single-barelled 20mm AA gun), and motorcycle scouts. They didn't have Wirbelwinds or Ostwinds.

Two Panzergrenadier regiments, each with two Panzergrenadier battalions with SdKfz 251 half-tracks (the Wehrmacht ones). They were the only Panzergrenadiers to have one Panzerschreck per squad, for a total of 84 per battalion. Each regiment had SdKfz 251/16 flamethrower half-tracks, machine-guns, mortars, 150mm self-propelled artillery, PaK40 AT guns, 20mm AA half-tracks, and 251-series half-tracks with short-barreled 75mm guns.

( Note: Most Panzergrenadier regiments had their second battalion travel in trucks, if not both. So Panzer Lehr had a larger concentration of half-tracks than any other division. )

Anti-aircraft battalion with 88mm Flak guns and 37mm AA half-tracks.

Anti-tank battalion with Jagdpanzer IV tank-hunters and 75mm PaK40s. They didn't have Marder III M, Jagdpanzer 38t "Hetzer"s, nor Jagdpanthers.

Artillery regiment with one battalion of Wespes and Hummels, one battalion of 105mm howitzers, and one mixed battalion of older German guns and captured Russian guns.

Reconnaissance battalion with SdKfz 234/2 Puma armoured cars, and Aufklärungs troops in SdKfz 250 half-tracks (the ones in the Panzer Elite). They didn't have the 221, 222, or 223 series of armoured cars (the scout car, armoured car, and logistik car, in OF).

Pioneer battalion with Pioneers in SdKfz 251 half-tracks, some as Stuka zu Fuss.


The force in Opposing Fronts that's called "Kampfgruppe Lehr" is close to what the Reconnaissance battalion was like. That's where you'd see the 250-series half-tracks, like the Light AT and mortar variants. Other than that, Kampfgruppe Lehr is fictional, and is mostly a collection of units that haven't been seen yet, rather than a historical representation of any force.

[Rottweiler|Soul]

Yes, war is hell and the sides are sanitized so we don't have to think too hard when we choose our in-game factions.

Can we get back to playing, now?

[Coramoor]

people need to stop "sanitizing" things

history bites

war is brutal

things happen that most people regret

so be it

censorship is the worst possible thing

[Gerle]

Can we get back to playing, now?

You do as you please!

[Rottweiler|Soul]

people need to stop "sanitizing" things

Jessep: You want answers?
Kaffee: I think I'm entitled to them.
Jessep: You want answers?
Kaffee: I want the truth!
Jessep: You can't handle the truth!

But seriously. If you wanted an unadulterated account of war, you wouldn't be playing a war game. I mean, what the fuck.

[Coramoor]

well yes but while that is true, i'd prefer a totally true situation and not sugar coating it by not even using the real units

[AnyKey]

You know the best quote i've heard in a long time is from actually from an German soldier in-game in COH, which I believe follows as,

"War is hardest on those with morals"

or something of that nature.

The point is this, and let me assure those who might judge my credibility, my experiences as an US Marine infantry soldier in Iraq could allow me to provide the following answer in response to all soldiers in whatever army/time of conflict.

You have to do what is needed to see/survive the next day, or else all hopes is lost for you and you've already registered as casualty/liability waiting to occur.

To question what was right and what was done wrong in any war, is non existent to the persons effected by it. To speak in the terms and reality of such a World War as WW2 is better left off to ponder, then to argue which actions done by what army was right and once again wrong, there is no correct answer.

[Rottweiler|Soul]

well yes but while that is true, i'd prefer a totally true situation and not sugar coating it by not even using the real units

So join the army.

[Coramoor]

i'm not an idiot, i have friends in the army though, and i respect them for their choice, but i could never let any body as idiotic as the government decide what i do and where i go, btw i'm canadian so i'd probably end up in some back end hell hole on some random peacekeeping mission but either way

i respect those in the army but it's not for me, and this is a historical representation anyway

[IndigoSpyder]

It always amazes me that some moralist hippies are so outspoken against war on who's good or evil. There's no such thing as good versus evil, it's evil versus lesser evil in war.

Don't you just love it when some people have so much influence with the media and still at this timeline puts too much hype on the SS, concentration camps and Nazi Germany, where there was USSR, Imperial Japan, Mao's China, etc. to bitch about?

I guess Michael Wittman's a dirty Nazi because of his SS insignia, period, out of the question?

[Win_Imperial]

I don't see why theres all this bitching about the SS. They were just an elite combat unit, simple as that. As for the atrocities part, forget about it. Every army in the face of history has done it.

Look at the US army in Vietnam for example. Your out there in the middle of the jungle on a patrol and you come across secluded villages. Soldiers would just run wild buring down buildings, killing and raping. One special forces guy gets pissed his buddy gets killed by a sniper so the next village they come across he shoots two women on the spot, goes into a hut and cuts a baby's head off and makes it's ears into a necklace. True story. A lot of shit just like that happened out there, just like World War Two, just in Vietnam the government did a very clean job of burying all charges of war crimes because of the tense political situation at the time.

Stuff like that happens in every war and it's best just to forget about it in my opinion, because no matter what you do it will never be avoidable.

As for video games, I think that everything should be protrayed to it's full historical potential, although unfortunatly a lot of governments have laws and if THQ want's to profit from sales in Germany, they will have to abide by them. Yes seeing german soldiers marching under Iron Crosses does look silly but it is what it is.

[Vintage]

"War is hardest on those with morals"

Man that is an awesome quote.

[Schwarzwald]

Yeah allies went unpunished by bombing Dresden to rubble, civilian city.

[SmFisch]

It always amazes me that some moralist hippies are so outspoken against war on who's good or evil. There's no such thing as good versus evil, it's evil versus lesser evil in war.

Don't you just love it when some people have so much influence with the media and still at this timeline puts too much hype on the SS, concentration camps and Nazi Germany, where there was USSR, Imperial Japan, Mao's China, etc. to bitch about?

I guess Michael Wittman's a dirty Nazi because of his SS insignia, period, out of the question?

To be fair, WWII was the most clean cut war of "GOOD GUY" and "BAD GUY" that's ever existed. This is completely unrelated to the rest of the topic, I just wanted to say that.

[IndigoSpyder]

WWII was the most clean cut war

...and I greatly admire Franklin Delano Roosevelt 100% since he's teh "GOOD GUY"...

Those who win the war are always the good guys, they can write all about it in history books. I 'love' propagandas, full of scheisse but can't be helped to find it still entertaining.

[Coramoor]

wait, if it's good guy, bad guy, then where does russia fit in?

[SmFisch]

There's the difference between writing it in the history books and your opponent being a fascist bastard who committed genocide on those he decided were unfit to live and not the "master race". I'm not putting the blame on any particular portion of the German army. I'm aware that there were honorable and commendable soldiers on their side of the war just as we had some truly despicable human beings on ours.

However, none of that changes the cause on a large scale. Looking outside of individual soldier morals and incidents within nations' armies, what it comes down to is that the Axis was fighting for world domination and the eradication of "lesser races". The Allies were fighting for "freedom" and prevention of genocide.

If you can convince me that the Axis cause and goal was not in fact as evil as it seems, and that the Allied goal was much more underhanded and plotting, then I'll personally fellate you.

[Vintage]

I am with Fisch. You can't say the Axis was not evil. It is a fact that they were evil unless you believe that genocide is okay exterminating entire races of human beings is a good thing to do. You can argue that the Allies commited acts of evil themselves, that definitly can be argued. You just can't say that the Axis were good people unless, like I said, you believe in genocide.

By Axis I don't mean every single soldier, please spare me the "well these guys didn't do bad things so that means the Germans were good". I know not every single German was evil, but the ones that mattered were purely evil.

By the ones that matter I mean Hitler, those that ran concentration camps, etc.

Yes seeing german soldiers marching under Iron Crosses does look silly but it is what it is.

I don't know I don't find this as silly. The game is Company of Heroes, not Company of Heroes vs. Company of Nazis. It's not like Medal of Honor where you actually fight Nazis and your supposed to be the good guys killing evil guys. The idea of this game was to portray the heroes from both sides, not the good vs. evil theme. Even then though maybe I am wrong, because the American rifle squads refer to the Germans as Nazis often, but that could just be a realism point of view from the propaganda told to the soldiers making them believe that every German was an evil Nazi.

[Rust_Lord]

Kampgruppe/Panzer Lehr/PE are deliberately ambiguous because Relic cannot blatantly portray the SS. Even the units of the PE are not typically SS other than the elite infantry which can be passed off simply as Panzer Grenadiers...

As far as COH featuring specific units that have committed war crimes, they have already...the Luftwaffe troops/Fallschirmjagers; the Hermann Goring Division was a Fallschirm Regiment who grew to be a Panzer division and who committed war crimes in Italy and Poland.

I think the greatest indicator of the Nazis evil was not how they treated their enemy (lets face it, they werent the first to develop an ideology and then go beat other people up and conquer), but how they treated their own people; not the Germans who disagreed or oppossed their ideology but the ordinary Germans who they fucked over. This does not necessarily mean that all Nazis were evil though...its murky...someone mentioned Wittman. He was a devout Nazi; by all accounts a decent chap, just one who believed fervently in an ideology which cost him his life.

And you really cant blame the Soviets for the fate of the Sixth Army; there is two and ultimately one person responsible for them; Hitler (and Paulus). The Germans froze and starved to death because they would not surrender and those that did were in such poor shape that they could not withstand harsh Soviet captivity.

[HellToupee]

Yeah allies went unpunished by bombing Dresden to rubble, civilian city.

but then the axis were also not punished for their bombing of civilian targets.

[Lonestar]

I don't see why theres all this bitching about the SS. They were just an elite combat unit, simple as that. As for the atrocities part, forget about it. Every army in the face of history has done it.

I don't think you really know what the SS was if that's your take on it. There's a difference(however slight) between being part of the Heer and being part of the armed apparatus of the Nazi party. That only took true Germans.

[Mirage Knight]

There's a difference(however slight) between being part of the Heer and being part of the armed apparatus of the Nazi party. That only took true Germans.

Partly correct. Waffen SS formations were composed primarily of volunteers that had to meet strict physical requirements. The more interesting fact is that while initially SS troops were Germans (of ethnic and national origin), there was a substantial number of non-German troops that formed the core of Waffen SS units later on. A prime example of this was 5th SS Panzer Division, also known as "Wiking" (the W is pronounced like a V)...at least half of the division was composed of Norwegian, Danish, Finish, Estonian, Flemish and Waloon volunteers.

In addition, there are instances of SS divisions being formed solely around foreign volunteers: for example, the 29th SS Waffen Grenadier Division was composed of Italians, and the 30th Waffen Grenadier Division was composed of Russians.

[Lonestar]

Oh sure, not to mention Slavs like the Croats and Poles in the SS as well, but so long as they looked like the Aryan ideal they were allowed in.

[bottenbreker]

wait, if it's good guy, bad guy, then where does russia fit in?

roflol. i think we should consider them as good guys with bad leaders. wiat, that's germany, Italy and austria aswell. oh, well, they're all bad guys then

but then the axis were also not punished for their bombing of civilian targets.

neither were the allied forces, they won. nobody sewed them, they were the good guys

[Bonnet]

This is not a history forum, if you want to have this discussion try GD.