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Really, why are 2 Riflemen ok and why are 4 squads of PE Grenadiers (same number of men) considered blobbing?
It seems like any noob nowadays crys "youre a f***ing blobber" as soon as more than one unit of infantry comes close.
Please people, stop the useless hysteria and try to play better instead.
most people know jack shit about combined arms... so they blob! PE is king ofand tbh calling 2 riflesquads a blob hmmm thats a bit extreme wouldnt u agree?
What Wischmopp is tying to say is that 2 riflesquads equals 12 men, the same as 4 PG squads. So if you call 4 PG squads a blob you should also call 2 riflesquads a blob too.
In my opinion blobbing is only a problem if there are no counters agains it, like in the early days of OF. You could mass PG and win, that is not the case now.
because 1 squad of PG's equal to 1 squad of riflemen. So it doesn't matter if it's 4 riflemen squads or 4 PE squads...Really, why are 2 Riflemen ok and why are 4 squads of PE Grenadiers (same number of men) considered blobbing?
you guys suck, each and every one of you.
My definition of blobbing is something that cannot be stopped. You really can't blob rifles, b/c they will all get suppressed by an MG or get torn at distance by Grenadiers or Volksgrenadiers.
PE blobs involve un-suppressible troops, a high armament of MP44's and Tankbuster Squads. So no matter what you throw at the blob, it cannot be stopped.
Unless you are throwing High Explosive 105 Howitzer shells, then the blob can be stopped.
my
ImmortalBadger
ive managed to clear blobs a lot with the Brits i just go for churchill AVRE immediatly, eeeevery blob and i mean every blob they send out of me got tottaly torn apart u just keep em behind ur main force and the at the moment they sop running drop one in them iddle of the group, fun guaranteed
#7
My definition of a blob in this game is when a player puts 80-100% of his entire force into one group and moves it around the map. The exemption from this definition comes when a player has only handful or so of units (early or nearly wiped out), where just a few units could represent 100% of his force.
The advantage of this blob is: (1) that it greatly simplifies keeping track of your force - you don't have to worry much about a unit dying out of sight; and (2) it will take an equivalent force by his opponent to counter it, otherwise the opponent's force will be eliminated piecemeal.
The downside of it is that it cheapens the intended experience of the game IMHO. Before the widespread use of the blob, CoH was more like grand chess game where small skirmishes were happening between small groups of units at various points on the map at nearly the same time (eg, a couple riflemen trying to flank a garrisoned MG in one spot, while an ATG attempts to engage a tank in another spot, while an engineer sneaks behind lines and decaps an unguarded point, etc).
On one hand, I can't blame people for using this tactic because of the obvious advantages (especially lessening the headache of keeping track of your force in real time), but on the other hand, it removed a lot of the fun, strategy and overall appeal of the game IMHO.
True arguments, still there is the problem of people calling 3 Pgren squads 10 m away from each other a blob, just because they follow the hype and do not know how to help themselves.
very few people acctually know the meaning of the word and always use it incorrectly confusing it with 'spamming'. in truth not too many people 'Blob' although many think that they do only because it seams that way.
Blobbing is where you use All of your forces as one mass instead of independent units. it is acctually the absence of Micro rather than the absence of skill, and blobing can be done with a whole Mixture of units instead of just an single type used en mass.
using 3 rifle squads and 2 airbone rr squads as an single group is considered blobing.
using 3 Volksgrenaders and 2 Grenadeirs is considered a blob.
using all of your howitzers and Preists to hit a single position is blobing.
using all of your Panzergrenadiers, Assault grenaders, and Tank hunter squads as a single cohesive unit is blobing.
but....
if i have 2 AG squads, 2 G43 squads and 2 Pshreck squad people will call me a blobber or spammer. but when i micro each individual two squads group to best engage what i encounter i am not really blobbing. keep my G43s at long range as i use slow fire. move in with my short range Assault grenaders, and pull both groups back when armor aproches engaging it with my Pshrecks. i am skillfully microing each group and using all of its potential.
but to the standard allied player, i am a dirty spamming blobber.
#10
Pyro,
I don't consider your examples (except for possibly your last one which could represent your entire force) to be blobing, and if the game was properly balanced/setup, they should be easily countered by a small force in a good defendable position (or a good raid force in the case of the howitzers/priests). The problem is that current game mechanics favor large, closely packed groups of infantry, instead of making them a liability.
If this game is ever going to get away from blobbing/spamming the simpliest way would be to get rid of all the resource points...the un-ending running around capping and de-capping to me removes all incentive for creating true "strategic" battles...as half the battle is simply having more resources/VP's...therefore its easier and most effective to "blob" your attacking forces so smaller units can run around capping.
Points should be captured because they have "strategic and tactical advantages"..ie.. a commanding view from a hilltop, fortified positions, towns...not simply cause its a +10 munitions.
Until/if the game mechanics were changed in that way..blobbing wouldnt be necessary or effective.
but then thats the way of current RTS thinking/design.
@hanz
Both types of play have their advantages.
It would sure be a nice addition to CoH to have more tactical scenarios (for example with prebuild armys) as an alternative play-mode (dunno if this is possible online)
Some of the "blobbing"-talk is really strange, at least. Of course u will attack a key-point with all your might, if it looks advantegous. anything else would be dumb, wouldn´t it? I think war was fought the same way
Last edited by Wischmopp; 21st Feb 08 at 8:09 AM.
Blobbing is a required evil.
If I don't have all my PGs close enough to eachother then a single squad of rangers, a single sherman tank, or the enemy's blob will tear down my men and cause a hideous amount of casualties. America and Britain always scream BLOODY MURDER whenever they see Wehr or PE using 3 squads together, but is there really a choice once rangers and commandos and cromwells and shermans hit the field ?
2 heavy cover grenadier squads will just be fired up to then torn down by rangers. Unless you have MP44s same to the PGs. If you have 2 PGs with MP44s together the sherman and cromwell tear them apart. If you only have 1 shrek squad... same thing. 2 Shrek squads can stop a sherman/cromwell but not the rangers/commandos. So guess what we do ? Since we can't just have 2 shreks out tank hunting alone, or 2 AI squads out... ranger hunting alone (wede need more like 4) we put them all together to maximize the effect !
Can't have 1 StuG or 1 MarderIII out alone... the cromwell or sherman will just speed on and circle strafe it. 2 StuGs and 2 MarderIIIs though... now youre talking. You might even kill the enemy tanks before they get to the circle strafe. Next patch what happens though? With AT guns beating MarderIIIs now you need MP44s backing up the MarderIIIs to beat the AT guns.
You can call it 'blobbing' or you can call it combined arms, it really just depends on the person. Just know that you need to keep all your units very close to eachother to fight the very powerful AI power of the Allies.
If youve ever played Warhammer 40k is similiar to playing Tau. You fire all youre firewarriors on the same space marine group instead of spreading out all your fire power. 1 SM > 1 FW. 2 SM > 2 FW. 3 SM = 3 FW. 4 SM < 4 FW (not exactly, but you get the point.) Hell, its like playing any RTS game.
#14
No, actually in real war, some units are held in reserve while others secure the flanks of the main assault force. So, usually an entire force is NOT committed to an attack. Typical blobs in CoH will fit on one screen. That kind of density in modern real warfare is begging for that force's annihilation.Some of the "blobbing"-talk is really strange, at least. Of course u will attack a key-point with all your might, if it looks advantegous. anything else would be dumb, wouldn´t it? I think war was fought the same way
I think the term "blobbing" became popular with the release of OF to represent a specific tactic that was feasible by rangers/commandos/fallshirmjagers/panzer grenadiers/etc.... That tactic being:
1. Left click&drag to select group
2. Right click on enemy location
3. Win
I never heard the term blobbing in classic CoH, but we did hear riflespam. The difference being that you couldn't (and still can't) do the above tactic with riflemen. If people are calling a group of units moving together a "blob", I don't quite agree with the usage. If the player tactically uses those units for specific purposes (like pyro paul's example) and intelligently flanks to draw an advantage, then that is definitely not blobbing imo.
I do agree that a "group" of units together is necessary. Who is going to have lone squads battling other lone squads spread out all over the map? If you want to spread out your units all over for the purpose of gaining map control faster while your opponent has a death team going around and killing your lone units (and recapping your points), that's a tactical trade off on your part... not an illegitimate play style by your opponent.
"Nicht kleckern, sondern klotzen"Originally Posted by BlackOmne
Thats from Generaloberst Heinz W. Guderian and means something like "Blob and don´t spill drops" refering to the proper usage of tanks.
Tankers saying goes like: "A single tank is a dead tank." Thats totally true for CoH also.
But sure, running masses of infantry into machine guns is bad and mostly ends bad even in CoH
Still some tactial situations make "blobbing" necessary even in modern war. If u want to overwhelm an enemy quickly, u sometimes need to attack with great power at his weakest point, although that point may not be really weak at all. If I can cut an enemy supply line completely by sacrificing men in a frontal assault on a bunker that will be defeated at a cost... may it be!
Last edited by Wischmopp; 21st Feb 08 at 9:35 AM.
#17
Don't get wrapped around my examples in my first post about really small forces spread over the map - I was simply trying to quickly state having multiple groups spread over the map doing different things - I was not saying that every group had to be made of 1-2 units facing 1-2 units. Obviously, when possible, each group should follow the combined arms example sufficient to reach its objectives. Groups in the middle- to late-game should probaby be comprised of 3-10 units, depending on their mission.
The true mark of the blobber is surely someone who uses 4 squads at once to cap a point. Any squads in my army found doing this would be on latrine duty for a month.
I haven't been playing the Beta, but I hear suppression has been increased for a lot of weapons. Does anyone know if that has finished off blobbing?
Just to be clear, by 'blobbing' I mean densely packed infantry charging about like a gang of drunken Vikings. Nothing else.
I can tell u that Flackvierling and a inciendary mortar round stop blobbing. 5 dead riflesquad can´t tell the story anymore
Supression is really heavy in BETA. MG´s are king on city maps.
Well, riflemen were never good at blobbing anyway (I have some hilarious replays to prove it). Tough troops like PGs and Rangers are the problem.
As for really heavy suppression... how heavy is it for those fortunate enough not to be riflemen? Can PGs still move while pinned? Can Rangers still avoid MG fire entirely? I must know!
I would join the Beta myself, but I can't play at all as I've fractured my arm, poor me. I have been watching a lot of replays though.
Ah well, get healthy soon! ( Or how do you say in english?)
They increased the supression rate and more importantly the supression radius of MG´s meaning that supression works over a bigger than usual area, even making flanking very very difficult! It may even be somehow over the top.
PE is victim to that too, but occasionaly they might get of that flame grenade at the MG despite supression.
The Ranger Fire Up issue has not been adressed completely, but due to the fact that they cost 45 MP to reinforce and their Thompson damage output has been slightly reduced, they did never feel as overpowered as before to me. I noticed that a defensive doctrine bunker (more hitpoints now) with a vet 1 MG inside and maybe a flame pioneer is a deathtrap for Rangers as they try to zook it.
Maybe others can contribute their observations about that too
Yeah you're asking for it if you do that shit IRL. Typical platoon sized OP has 2-3 squads doing security.No, actually in real war, some units are held in reserve while others secure the flanks of the main assault force. So, usually an entire force is NOT committed to an attack. Typical blobs in CoH will fit on one screen. That kind of density in modern real warfare is begging for that force's annihilation.
I used 2 Rangers my entire match the other day, while this guy had 4 cloaked double MP44 Storm Troopers bunched up running around. He called me a blobber, and whined how overpowered Rangers were. Then he used 3 units and used Assault on my 2 Rangers and called it "the anti-blob."
Stuff like that makes me cry inside, because people blob yet whine about blobbing.
It hasn't really "finished off blobbing," but it made it a bit harder.
Wischmopp,
it's good that in BETA the MG issue has been resolved, because:
Blobbing came about in OF due to the ability of both the brits and PE to avoid supression.
The brits are easier to supress than the PE (but that isn't saying much), but they have the heroic charge ability that makes mg's kinda moot mid-game.
PE on the other hand, blob because all their units get the same updgrades and it is easier to maange 10 guys (each with different weapons) if you select them all. What makes BLOBBING bad however, is the fact that:
You, as a PE player, make a ton of infantry, because they can get the best infantry weapons in the game (arguable, but true IMHO).
Why is this a problem? well, my typical response to an ass-ton of infantry is to get an MG.
The problem, however, is that the PE are virtually UNSURPRESSABLE (not counting the BETA, sry, don't have enough time to play that).
So, what happens when I have even 2 mg squads backing each other up (as US)? the 5 PE squads run up, NEVER get pinned (even running through yellow/negative cover in my experience - from long to short range too mind you), and DECIMATE my mg.
DECIMATE.
Try that with rifles.
Ja, we know all that, most of us at least
Perhaps I don't understand your statement then, since that is why we call it blobbing, and in my experience, that's the only time its been used.
Brits blob because they want to maximize the leutenant's aura + heroic, PE's blob because they are unsupressable.
Brits blob LESS because they are expensive, so it is easier to pick them off (their biggest blob imo is 6 units).
PE's blob MORE because they are cost effective, get all the best weapons, and can't be surpressed. there is really no reason for the PE not to blob their infantry.
Except they can get destroyed by AOE weapons (Arty) very, very easily. Seriously do people all think that ALL PE players just spam and blob Panzer Grenadiers?
#28
I really must say, in beta, if you blob as PE, you'll be guaranteed a loss.
blob or no blob, alls fair in war
I've had my barracks start called blobbing by an axis player...
i was like.. dude what do you want me to do? make jeeps instead?
he continued to call me a noob (while he was loosing) and cussing at me until he quit :/
I have been using the word "blob" for a small mass of units and not as a putdown. example a few units comming on the left side of the map i put a marker down and tell my friend that i always play with that there is a small "blob" comming my way meaning inf. "blobing" is a legit strat and you just gotta know how to counter it (my favorite is to go commandos and let em run over em and click end of the "blob") people just gotta learn that the word "blobing" is just a name of a strat very simple to put a end to strat but a strat none the less. But blobing is something that should be ignored I myself am more concerned about Noobies calling people "arty noobs" just because they allowed them to set up howies and bring out 3 priests and they call them the noobs... lolz
That's just as good of a counter as the 1 sec arty... neither of those are supposed to be as they are now, and both of them should be fixed ASAP... (I know that the arty has been fixed in beta, and they've TRIED to fix commandos in the beta aswell, but they've only made them cost a little bit more when reinforcing, but not nearly enough).my favorite is to go commandos and let em run over em and click end of the "blob"
Blobs can be countered trustably only by A: well placed on-map artillery or explosives (such as commando detonations or mines) or B: a bigger blob.
I wish PG could be selected by their group, like double click a AG to select all Assault, double click a TB to select all Tank Busters, ect. It would make it a lot easier to guide your forces around while reducing blobing as well.
Complaining... is eternal.
IMO, the blob itself isn't the root of all the hype. Blobs should be considered a tactical and valid strategy. The problem originated with the OF blobs where the HMG's (which should be the natural drawback to blogs) failed to fulfill their roles. That plus the Ranger boost with OF.
Everybody blobs at one point or another. PE actually needs to blob. But to keep the books balanced, better counters must be present as to avoid another more realistic word being thrown around...OP.
IMO or at least the way I see it, each faction's basic anti-blob measure should (meaning not presently feasible) be something like:
US/Wher: HMGs+something to finish the job with
PE: Incendiary Grenades (But will realistically be another blob which is fine because that's the nature of the beast)
Brits: Rifle grenades and the canister shot.
If basic anti-blob measures were actually feasible then a real force of combined arms would start forming as soon as armor starts hitting the field.
#34
Muad,
To me, it sounds like you're describing spamming vice blobing, as in infantry spamming, because the counters you list are for infantry. Spamming IMO is not a cheap tactic, just a weak one once the beta changes return the power to MGs. Blobing on the other hand is cheap and reduces the appeal of the game (but remains a valid tactic for whoever wants to use it).
As I said with my initial post, a blob is when a player maneuvers and attacks with 80-100% of his entire force, whether that blob is all infantry or a good mix of a combined arms force - this blob tends to occupy less than a screen's worth of space - it simplifies controlling your force since you don't have to keep switching between multiple areas of the map - and it takes an equivalent size of force from your opponent to stop.
Blobs can be recognised as including troops with close range weapons (tommies / MP44) and then clicking the area up close to the enemy such that the blobs is surrounding them and thus you cannot retaliate with mortars or Arty without first retreating your own troops or killing them.
Spam to me is large number of infantry but micro'd
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