Just tested it at the end of 1v1 against a KT, frontal facing. Pershing penetrated 1 out of 5 shots, KT penetrated 5 out of 5 shots.
I think armour is dead.
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Just tested it at the end of 1v1 against a KT, frontal facing. Pershing penetrated 1 out of 5 shots, KT penetrated 5 out of 5 shots.
I think armour is dead.
yeah well be prepared for people comming to tell you history lessons about the pershing was not able to slugfest a king tiger and use flank and stuff .
and by the way the buffs wer not against the KT , only panthers and jagd .
But the Super-PErshing could! Some Mr.Powell anywhere?
Nah al bring my m1a2 abrams to teach that son a lesson
nah back on topic , i still think the pershing REALLY could use some armor buff , not much but deflecting more shells could not harm .
other then that it is a pretty decent tank at the moment .
The Pershing isnt great, but its not horrible either. It can beat any armor 1v1 except a Tiger/KT/JP. Use it to hit and run or to anchor your Sherman-Swarm and its pretty good. The only buff it might need now is against shreks, since they still seem to rip it up pretty quickly.
Armor needs an early game buff. Right now its too hard to last till you get to a Pershing. Maybe make the Pershing 1 less CP, and make Crew Repairs better somehow.
Im not part of the beta, so if this makes my post of far less value, I understand, but ill write the following regardless:
if buffs to the Pershing are made, make them soley against the KT. The balance between the Tiger and Pershing is pretty even and as it should be as of now in 2.201, and last thing needed is to make a unit imbalanced over other units. Buffing the Pershing overall would only result in other balance issues - buff it soley against the KT, and call it a day instead.
Also one thing it is good at is killing stugs since the 1.5 stug overnerf versus pershing has STILL not been reverted.
I think the biggest problem with the pershing is that you only get the one as a hardcap.
by mid-late game (8CP+) when Pershings become available, the Wer will certainly be spamming out those lovely vet1+ Panthers. 2 Panthers (especially with vet and some light shrek or pak support) will put the poor Pershing down hard (even with an upgunned sherman or two in tow). Now don't get me wrong, a vet 3 pershing is a terrifying beast on the battlefield if you can get it that far, but as a superunit, its a bit crap to be limited to 1 at a time.
The easy fix would be to buff it to 2 at a time, and a mild bonus to infantry splash damage - leave all other stats as are. Mid-late game Wer will be countering with 2+ panthers and PE will generally be rolling around with a stack of shreks/marders by that stage.
Taking Blitz as the closest example (a poor comparison in many ways I admit, but thinking in terms of tanking ability) with thier one at a time Tiger offmap. A single veteran tiger is fine (and it wil certainly be vet1+ by the time the Blitz player has a chance to call one in!) as it beats the vanilla pershing 1 on 1. The Pershing will likely be backed up by a sherman (or two) but I'll wager the tiger will also have a panther or two in tow, and the late game armour players most powerful units will be in serious trouble... concentrate on the shermans first then roll the pershing over.
Before anyone throws a wobbler, please consider the utility of the pershing as the top of the armour doctrine tree... and the armour tree as a whole in fact. Its currently the weak doctrine (barring the utility of early/mid M8 rushes - swiftly countered by shreks!) compared to airborne or infantry, but having 2 pershings would really differenciate it late game and give armour players some light at the end of an ammo resource expensive tunnel
The Pershing is a fine vehicle and works as it should - it doesnt need buffing, its just not up to the task of taking on the buffed/cheaper panther/shrek or marder/shrek combo that wer/PE players are rolling with at a late stage on its lonesome, even with support it doesnt deal enough damage to go toe to toe long enough for its cost... while AWM is a useful ability, it doesnt keep the pershings at the front line doing damage where they are needed, it just allows you to keep chukcing them at the axis strong points over and over again, while your support units and ammo resource are gradually worn down.
Hope this makes sense!
I think the 1 cap is totally ok and was introduced because of a reason. Now u have to use Tigers and Pershings intelligently instead of just getting two of them as your whole tank force for the rest of the game.
I think any balance suggestions should be based on how the single Pershing can be worth its price
wonderdog, How can you "spam" Werh Panthers? They are T4 End-Game unit that is pretty much the most expensive unit in teching and the unit itself that you can build in the game. Your more likely to see Shrecked Grens and Panzer 4s then Panthers.
Trouble is that a) shreks still do uber damage to shermans b) pershing comes out later and c) all armor is utterly negated by both marder snipage and the tank destroyer doc.
I would suggest a penetration nerf on the shrek, dropping pershing AND tiger down a CP (but keep the 1 unit hard cap), and balancing the marder somewhat against shermans.
Tank Destroyer doc should help the PE kick the shit out of shermans... but it's way too easy even without going TD.
bring back 2 pershings, easy fix.
Ah, the good old days when armour company was totally overpowered....
Bring back 2 Pershing then you want 2 Tigers, and then its Armor/Blitz, and we are back to mundane companies (not saying the current is better). Buff HP and increase the penetration, and see how it works out. I know the KT had a lot of armor, but the Pershing fired a big round. Pershing needs more durability, imo, so an HP or just an incoming penetration buff would be a nice fix.
Can't buff its HP because Blitz players will complain. Then again, I did lose a Pershing to a Tiger in a slugfest just the other day... Not like vCoH, when the Pershing could appear a bit earlier and gain some vet to fight the Tiger.
It's hard to say what to do. Maybe dropping the cost slightly (to 750-800 manpower) would be in order, especially given the insane riflemen reinforce cost nerf in OF. That, plus having it come one CP earlier, would make the Pershing capable of getting veterancy and give the Americans some breathing room and some manpower to help build their other AT efforts -- at least one AT gun.
Relic, this is the beta, you are allowed to do things like these so we could test them before the patch goes into retail.
Could/Should/Would HAVE. A verb. Not an adposition.
Ya its right that pershing and tiger arent worth 900mp especially in 2v2 and up games but still the tiger gets the bought vet bonuses from start on.
So my suggestion is to make the pershing cost 800mp (makes it 100mp cheaper) or make it 1CP earlier aviable. NOTE: ONLY ONE OF THEM NOT BOTH SUGGESTIONS!
So the pershing could make its lack of experience at least a bit worthwhile. And with the rest of the changes already done by the patches, like better calliopes its more then enough and a well used warmachinery ability is more then worth its cost if you lose your persh and one or two shermans.^^
The Pershing isn't ovepowered. It just pales in comparison to all the lovely new units that OF has introduced. With the latest buff it should be able to do at least *some* damage to the Jagdpanther, and the penetration and damage bonuses against regular Panthers should be pretty severe, to the point where a Pershing has good chances to win a 1on1 duel, though I haven't tried it yet. Unfortunately, Panthers always seem to come in pairs and with PE veterancy to boot ... But then again, there should be at least one or two M10s around to support the Pershing in his AT role.
About increasing the limit to 2 on the field: NO
The limitation on 1 exists for a reason, which is to prevent the late game from degenerating into a pure supertank match, like it used to be in matches between Blitzkrieg and armor.
Also, I'm asking myself what could have happened to the allied war machine? I know that enemies can just target ground to prevent your tanks from getting replaced, but that doesn't work all the time. And if it does, you can feel free to pound at any unit for 30 seconds without having them hit you back.
Originally Posted by Texture
In two vs two its extrememly common for Wer to skip tier 3 and often tier 2 to push for ostwinds / panthers (given adequete fuel supplies). I see far more panthers in play on 2vs2/3vs3 than I do Panzer 4's. Price wise, a Panther is now not a great deal more expensive than a Panzer. I regularly push for a 2 x panther + 1 x ostwind combo while my ally goes tier 1 + 2 or g43 / AT halftrack heavy if playing PE to cover my teching.wonderdog, How can you "spam" Werh Panthers? They are T4 End-Game unit that is pretty much the most expensive unit in teching and the unit itself that you can build in the game. Your more likely to see Shrecked Grens and Panzer 4s then Panthers.
Shrecked grenadiers are still effective, but dont discount the effectivenes of 2 panthers.
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Can you please show me a replay of this please? I don't think this would work unless it a Chokepoint map or unless your enemies aren't putting enough pressure on you.
Totaly agreeThe limitation on 1 exists for a reason, which is to prevent the late game from degenerating into a pure supertank match, like it used to be in matches between Blitzkrieg and armor.
In vCoh 2 Tigers were very hard to take down for Airborne and Infantry company, Blitz and Armor were OP for this reason
Sure, next time I play a 2 vs 2 on megeechans or similiar I'll save a replay.Can you please show me a replay of this please? I don't think this would work unless it a Chokepoint map or unless your enemies aren't putting enough pressure on you.
Its not all that difficult to get two panthers out, especially if one of the allies is playing as brits. tier one MG's are highly effective at covering your fuel points, allowing you time to tech to panthers. a flak then 2 panthers = pain for brits. The flak eats infantry blobs alive, especially if you target those pesky brens first. If you get buttoned, just retreat to your MG's.
I generally go with 2 panthers before pushing the forward bases with those god damned bofors.
Motar Pit behind a Hedgerow? A 25pdr? Wouldn't it take care of the static defenses you put up?
I miss the days of 2 tigers.
And I agree the Pershing could come in earlier, 1 CP less.
Actually, the pershings gun could defeat the frontal armor of a KT in the right conditions.yeah well be prepared for people comming to tell you history lessons about the pershing was not able to slugfest a king tiger and use flank and stuff .
and by the way the buffs wer not against the KT, only panthers and jagd.
Make pershing 1cp less or cheaper there isnt more to say^^
make it about equal to a tiger. problem solved.
Gamers don't die, they go to the next level
Pershing already is as equal to a Tiger as any unit are to another. There are some ups and downs with each, but they are obviously made to be equal value.
The Problem is that as werh you tend to have at least Vet 1 for Tanks researched so The Pershing will lose in a straight up fight. (Not saying it SHOULD win without Vet against Vet 3 Tiger.)
I just hope Pershing can buff it's main gun after Vet2 or Vet3.
IMO,throuth Pershing is not good in it's armor, I hope it's main gun would be the best main gun in heavy tanks in Vet3.
At least made it's Vet3 main gun more penetration when it face Vet3 Tiger !
The pershing is weaker than the tiger. But it's still a very nice and very usable unit. Also, it has great synergies with the whole command tree, like AWM and repair.
I like the pershing the way it is now.
I think there should be some changes made to the armor command tree though, especially raid that is too expensive with 2 CPs.
Last edited by MrFinsch; 28th Feb 08 at 3:59 PM.
Agreed, Light Raid should probably be dropped to one CP to help balance out early Panzer Elite Kettenkrad rushing on larger maps.
I do miss the good old days, rolling around with two Pershings or Tigers, crushing everything in my path. But I agree that the curent hard cap should stand. I also agree that the Pershing should be dropped back to Pre Opposing fronts CP cost. But with all the Axis heavy tanks out there, I would like to see a little more penatration versus heavy armor.
If Raid is Dropped to 1 CP.... I think it going to upset US vs Werh balance. A Jeep can at least attack and defend itself unlike the Ket. Pios can't really stand up to Jeeps and Volks and MGs are too slow to catch up with them and the Motorcycle loses to Jeeps 1v1. There is probably a better way then moveing Raid to 1CP.
Well, first off, the American Armor company player has to get to that first CP before they can get the ability. And might I add that that is one less point they have to put towards the left hand side of the tree which leads to the Pershing. Yes, a Jeep might be able to dance around someone's MG42s and skirt past his Volks, but as always the tactic is negated by the odd mine and OPs.
You do make a valid point, it would upset things against the Wehrmacht slighty. However the Americans and the Panzer Elite are supposed to be the highly mobile, quick acting armies while the British and the Wehrmacht are the slower, more defensive armies. By dropping Light Raid by one CP, you might even see people using it more often in the beginning, where it will be most effective.
Pershing sucks hard.
Relic lols harder.
... the world goes round.
Such is CoH.
Pershing haiku time!
The Pershing was good
Axis got "I win!" buttons
Now it's scrap metal
It used to be strong
Now strongly scratches paint jobs
On free übertanks
I remember that somebody said that if you mention mines as counters that you automatically lose the thread?
Edit: This is the first time I have heard that Obseveration Posts are a counter to something. lol
Last edited by CommanderHolt; 29th Feb 08 at 12:37 AM.
Pershing sucks hard.
Relic lols harder.
... the world goes round.
Such is CoH.
Stop spamming this kind of no usefullness!Pershing haiku time!
The Pershing was good
Axis got "I win!" buttons
Now it's scrap metal
It used to be strong
Now strongly scratches paint jobs
On free übertanks
If you could balance brits in 2v2 you can start balance the pe in 1v1!
Jeeps barely scratch OPs, thus an OP effectively negates the jeep's capping ability. However, you can't just OP everything. And no one will ever OP a strategic point, which is infact called "strategic point" because it connects your precious OPed ressources to your HQ sector.Edit: This is the first time I have heard that Obseveration Posts are a counter to something. lol
I think the forum point is ''not'' how to cut CP of "light armor strike" but how to buff Pershing.
I can't find reason to persuade myself why should Pershing be weak than Tiger I.
At least ,Vet3 Pershing should have best penetration than any heavy tank. It is not say that Vet3 Pershing really has penertration as FireFly,but It should have it's "style".
That is my point.
I would be happy if Nazi tanks were as difficult to repair as they really where.
Give the Nazis ubertanks that are time consuming to repair, and give the allies tanks that are weaker but easier to repair.
-an important note with panthers is that say youre playing at maximum pop. Nazis can have 2 panthers...send them in, lose them and isntantly replace them. If they dont lose them (these tanks generate a luck field when they take 95% damage) they can be swarm repaired by their entire army. They can easily repair the tanks FASTER than anything on the other team can dammage them.
Thats one issue i have with call in tanks. By the time they have had their fight you have savced up enough MP to replace it immediately.
Ofcourse this is true for pershings but 2 panthers can deal with a pershing.
In all fairness, it does take the better part of a century to repair a KT...
Also, the pershing needs a larger range. I lost one yesterday because I couldn't get to the panther that was shooting me.
Quite right, sory about that.I think the forum point is ''not'' how to cut CP of "light armor strike" but how to buff Pershing.
Anyway, I still kinda wish I could get two Pershings out. It would definitely make me feel a little better when being hit by two King Tigers, a Jagdpanther, and god knows how many Panthers. :P
It's OK.
If it could, I also hope two Pershing, but I think it will not be anymore.
So buff Pershing's penetration again. Does this ask is hard ?
I play allied(brits) only in maps where there is a bottleneck or the possibility of a bottleneck, what better way to negate his numbers than arty strike him while he's getting pummelled by priests and supercharged arties, oh the carnal joy of watching tiger after tiger pop and panthers running away smoking.
Oh and on the Pershing problem: supertank that can run over people= cool, supertank that tries to run over Tank busters and can only take 3-4 shrek rounds= not so cool.
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