[2.316] Commandos... issues solved?

[Ano2]

Okay heres all the nerfs i've found regarding commandos from the changelog:

- Commando Infantry reinforce cost increased from 25 to 35
- British Commando Concealing Smoke and Commando Grenades share timers - abilities cannot be used at the same time.
- British Commando Glider, with the exception of the Glider HQ, will not allow reinforcements or be able to build units outside friendly territory.
- British Commandos cannot capture when using Concealing Smoke. Using smoke while capturing will stop the capture.
- Commando Gliders will be able to land anywhere except enemy base sectors.


Now my question is has the issues with this unit been adressed? Lets look at the issues suggested in 2.101

- Reinforement time too little- Fixed
- 'base raping' - Fixed
- Commando nade and smoke combo too deadly- Fixed
- Commando capping whilst in smoke- Fixed
- Commando demo charge has no cooldown- Not fixed
- Commandos rape all but mp44 wielding infantry- Not fixed.

Now whilst the nerfs have been good so far, imo there are still 2 much needed nerfs to bring them into line. Their damage output is still incredibly high, and is still the reason wehr players are racing to tech to 3-4 in order to get armour out. If their damage output was toned down a little, especially firing on the move accuracy then I think they would be fixed.

The demo charge also needs a cooldown. For an ability that can 1 hit ko a bunker for 50 munitions and take out WHOLE squads in one blast its need a cooldown. 1 minute would be fine.

Thoughts?

[p331083]

Demo pack timer is a must nerf.

[Splitmonkey]

They still reinforce as fast as riflemen.

Grenade range still 30.

Damage output exceedingly high.

Smoke still unbalanced.

Demo charge.

[DrunkenBrawler]

They still reinforce as fast as riflemen.

Grenade range still 30.

Damage output exceedingly high.

Smoke still unbalanced.

Demo charge.

Damage output is no worse than MP44, which you can get earlier and cheaper. Demo charge is not that much different from mines, except that you have to manually detonate demo charge, and it costs 50muni, the double of a mine. And lets not talk about the free PE traps.

And they still cost 560mp.

If your ideas were to go through (which they won't, the current nerfs are good enough and I bet Relic agrees) who the hell would pay 560 for something equivalent to a volks squad?

[D'yer Mak'er]

Yeah, i hope you guys are advocating a cost nerf too, because theres no way anyone is building that shit for the outrageous price they cost if what you all propose ever happened.

Jesus, get a grip.

[CommanderHolt]

Damage output is no worse than MP44, which you can get earlier and cheaper. Demo charge is not that much different from mines, except that you have to manually detonate demo charge, and it costs 50muni, the double of a mine. And lets not talk about the free PE traps.

And they still cost 560mp.

If your ideas were to go through (which they won't, the current nerfs are good enough and I bet Relic agrees) who the hell would pay 560 for something equivalent to a volks squad?

That only applies to PE, basically Commandos can annilate any Werh Infantry before they can get MP44s (Unless Blitz Doctrine, but you need Battle Phase or Assault Phase in BETA)
Grens can't stand up to commandos unless FTFL is on or have armor support. Plus they renforce basically at almost the same cost as Tommies still.

[sgb]

Demo charge needs a cooldown, glider should not crush infantry, and there needs to be a greater delay when leaving the glider. You should not be able to drop the Commandos in the middle of an army with no real risk. Other than that, Commandos are fine for what they cost. The larger problem is that there's no reason to take any other doctrine in 1v1. Elite infantry, light tanks, free scouting and artillery? How is the sucky Churchill line and some passive bonuses supposed to compete with that package? Unless RE get some help, expect to see nothing but Commandos mid-game for British.

[CoatedTrout]

- Commandos rape all but mp44 wielding infantry- Not fixed.

That's what they're supposed to do.

You're not supposed to counter some of the best and most expensive infantry in the game with inferior infantry, or blobs.

And about demo charge, as mentioned above, putting a cooldown on it would be equivalent to putting a cooldown on mines.

At the moment, they're fine I reckon.

Edit: The commando artillery on the other hand...

[s73r01d]

Don't try to equal mines with DemoCharge, mines have long build time, require to being step on (can't blow buildings) and Pioneers are not commandos with SmokeBoke god mode.

It should have a cooldown, if not a min at least a half, just to prevent spamz0r. Or great increase in price, double or more.

[armen]

they have been nerfed enough.

they are used completely different than prior to this patch!

they are elite cqb units... they should have the ability to take out guys with k98 @ close range.

the demo charge cool down doesn't make any sense either, they are a unit thats designed to sabotage shit behind enemy lines. so if i see commandos landing behind my lines i automatically assume there will be demo laying about.

There is no need for a cooldown time, since they cant land in your base anymore to take out buildings and such.

[Wilson]

Demo charges cannot be compared to mines, as s73r0id said. Mines never destroy a whole full health squad in one blast, cannot be detonated at the perfect moment with micro, and do take longer to put down.

That said, I don't think a timer on demos is vital to balance commandos, but a real short timer (like twenty or even ten seconds) just to stop demo spam on the few occasions it might happen could be a good idea.

[TheVOID]

Currently, Volks with MP40 have a moving accuracy modifier of 0.2, while commandos have 0.5

I think the simplest nerfbuff would be to change the Volks MP40 moving accuracy to 0.3 and the commando's Sten moving accuracy to 0.4

That would also address the issue of Wehr players vs commandos, since in combination, it will make upgraded Volks more useful as a defense against commandos.

The other thing I would do is increase the reload frequency of Commandos slightly. In addition to all the other changes, that should do the trick without going too far in any direction.

[Roman_93]

Refresh cost should be 40 or 45 like Elite.
Or / and the refresh time should be a bit longer.
Also a small timer on demo charges would be fair.

[Nomad_Wanderer]

Have you not been exploited with demo charges yet?

There are numerous replays of 1 commando squad walking into a base, and spending about 30 seconds in the base, using your own buildings as cover and laying 6-7 demo charges. 6-7 demo charges is enough to blow your HQ, and 1 other building (whatever building produces something that can kill commandos). The commandos can pop smoke while they move from building to building, avoiding the base defenses.

Down your HQ, and Down your best building that could beat the Commandos, Game over. If you aren't retreating your forces to kill the commandos immediately, in the next 30 seconds you will lose your other 2 buildings.

Even if you turn some vehicles around as soon as you see the commandos, they will still have at least ~15 seconds... That's enough for 4 demo charges. Bye bye HQ, no more call ins.

As an axis player, which unit do I have that with 30 seconds in your base, I can blow up your HQ and 1 of your anti-infantry Unit Producing buildings? Hell, I can't even do that with a V1 blast and a Hummel Barrage at the same time.

Not only that, Commandos can use those demo charges for anything. This has also happened to me. I'm defending the right vic point on hill 331 with 3 pg Squads (1g43, 2 normal), I have the building to the right upgraded to a reinforce point. Commando squad drops in, crushes one squad with the glider, and grenades another squad, and just outright kills the third as they move towards the reinforce point.

As soon as the commandos landed, I moved an armored car, and a halftrack towards the vic point. They were blown up in the demo charge mine explostion

See, watching the replay, after killing my troops, the commandos immediately run to one of the Tree chokepoints (Facing my base), and drops 2 demo charges. Then runs back to the Vic point, and drops another demo charge on the vic point. Then captures the vic, then runs to the building and blows it up with 2 more demo charges.

Sure, That cost 250 munition, and 560 manpower, but in ~50 seconds I went from having a vic point, a reinforce point, with 12 men defending it, to no reinforce point, mined (enough to kill an armored care, and a HT) approach, and boobytrapped vic point.

If you lose sight of a commando squad for more than 10-15 seconds, watch out. That's enough time to put down mines that can destroy anything.

There's no reason why commando demo charges shouldn't have a cooldown. It's too easy to exploit it in base rushing, or in setting up instant-defenses. For those reasons, Relic is looking into it as we speak.

[Vretsu]

I agree, Rangers are currently more expensive to reinforce than Commandos.

It is cheaper to reinforce Commandos than to reinforce k98k-wielding Grenadiers.

[Deionarra]

That's called faction diversity.

- PE & WM; have cheap squads that cost more to reinforce.

- US; have cheap squads that cost less to reinforce but have high upkeep.

- Brits; have expensive squads that are cheap to reinforce. Having to replace lost squads is about twice as costly as it is for the other factions.

Personally I don't really have any problems with commandos except when they drop right on top of me. Most of the time I can just kite them, the same can't be said for Rangers.

[EroticCompany]

"There are numerous replays of 1 commando squad walking into a base, and spending about 30 seconds in the base, using your own buildings as cover and laying 6-7 demo charges."

Wow, 1 squad of commando had time to lay 6-7 demo in the base and players allowed them to do that? Unless your opponent really outplays you, that shit rarely happen

[Sn1tch]

If the Bren's are equal to the effectiveness of the MP44's, then it means they're overpowered.

You have a 6 man squad all wielding MP44's that come pretty early in the game. How exactly is that fine?

Here is what is wrong with Commandos still:

- Demo charges (thread about this)
- Reinforcement cost (as if 35 is enough for how they currently are, if their Bren's were nerfed then 35 is fine)
- Brens (explained above)
- Grenade range (explained below)

Apparently their grenade is the riflemen's power with the range of the grenadier's. That is simply not balanced.

[Ano2]

Wow, 1 squad of commando had time to lay 6-7 demo in the base and players allowed them to do that? Unless your opponent really outplays you, that shit rarely happen

Say you've only got grens on the field and support weapons, anything you send to try and counter them will die very quickly. If your on the otherside of this arguement, send 6 commandos against 2 squads of gren vet2.

[EroticCompany]

"Say you've only got grens on the field and support weapons, anything you send to try and counter them will die very quickly. If your on the otherside of this arguement, send 6 commandos against 2 squads of gren vet2."
If you only have a valina grens, no other units, no artilary, no call in troops and opponent has a squad of commandos in your base. He outplays you for sure. But anyway, I agree it is OP to let commando land in the base

[TheYaxisOfEvil]

In response to Nomad, you've never seen a HT full of shrek squads rape a base? It used to be even worse when zeal would make that last guy standing rapid fire.

There are tons of options vs commandos, and that whole fly into your base thing just wont happen anymore anyway so why nerf the demo charges? They are expensive and do require set up time. If anything lengthen the placement time, but don't require a cooldown.

[DrCloud]

If the Bren's are equal to the effectiveness of the MP44's, then it means they're overpowered.

Am I missing something? I thought commandos used stens and not brens.



It would be a whole barrel of laughs if they could button vehicles.

[MrSomeguy]

Yeah, he means Stens, Brens are the LMG's you give infantry sections.

[th3pr0ph3t]

Commandos still have some issues.

I played a game in the beta the other day on Semois. I took the center vp and had at least 1 mg 42 in the church at all times. Throughout the game the brit player dropped 4 commando squad and through attrition ended up with his entire army composed of commandos. The fast moving commandos could attack my cut off points at will and if faced with a superior force, ninja vanish or drop fake smoke or real artillery.

Whats the point of defensive depth or long range weapons, if the commandos can easily bypass without taking any damage and be in prime range for their sten's?

To top it off. I eventually got an 88 up to counter the fireflys that were lighting up my pumas, and what happens? Glider comes in right next to it. I say to myself, "No big deal, I have some Vet 3 MP40 volks in a bunker next to the flak."

Wrong.

The commados perforate the flak crew taking 0 casualties and man the gun and blast the bunker...gg.

I was not a happy field marshal.

[Sn1tch]

Yes I meant Stens, even though I know what both guns look like. I always get mixed up when rushing a post.

[CommanderHolt]

I think there should be a No-Drop Zone around AA Emplaments (AKA Flak 88 and Flak Verling). They could of probably shoot down a Glider or a C-47 Carrying Paras before they reach near them.

[Nomad_Wanderer]

Wow, 1 squad of commando had time to lay 6-7 demo in the base and players allowed them to do that? Unless your opponent really outplays you, that shit rarely happen

You do realize that it only takes 4 seconds to lay down a demo charge right, and there's no cooldown? You do realize that they can use your own buildings as LOS cover from your base defenses? They can just pop smoke through your Defenses Firing lane to get into your base, or move around your base? Oops, invisible, can't shoot em. Now they are behind your buildings again.

So commandos show up at your base, time to do something about it.

How long is the build time for a squad of grenadiers? (30 seconds)

How about an armored car? (45 seconds)

30 seconds is enough time to blow up any 2 wehr buildings, 1 of them being the HQ.

Even if you _immediately_ retreat when you see the commandos, they will have time (12 seconds) to put down 3 demo charges. That's enough to blowup any single wehr non-hq building, or significantly hurt your HQ. BTW, as it only takes 2 demo charges to blow up a non hq wehr building, It's real nice of them to put that third demo charge at your HQ's retreat point.

What's the defense then? I have to keep an armored car in my base at all times, because commandos could show up at any moment and insta-kill at least one of my buildings?

Satchel Charges have a cooldown. Anti-building Grenades have a cooldown. Hell, the demo charge expert sappers have a cooldown when using demo charges, why not commandos?

[th3pr0ph3t]

I really like the idea of a no drop zone around AA weapons. Barring that, how about the AA weapons actually do what they're supposed to do...shoot down things that fly.

Anyone every paradrop anything with a ostwind around? No? Because if you do, your parachutes will be holding up dead men. How come a glider gets a pass, because its supposed to crash?

Anyway, here's a replay against a brit player that maximized his glider drops...always behind front lines and whatnot...

All I have to say is FTFL saved me multiple times.

[Moon Pine]

'base raping' - Fixed

Still base raping by land near Wehmacht base then sneak in under smoke - just a little work.
IMO, commando shouldn't build trench anymore, so I can drive them out of my base with a halftrack or a puma. Once the commando get in my base, I mush with draw my vehicles before he has the time to finish his trench. That not a easy task even in Semois let along in some bigger map or 2v2.

[natrapsmai]

Commandos get fixed when their invisible smoke gets turned into real smoke and when their demos are put on a timer.

[CommanderHolt]

Still, Commandos can pretty much anniliate any Werh Infantry, unless they are Stormtroopers w/Mp44s or KCH. It can come in 3 CP, which barely give you time to deploy a Puma to counter it. (Werh HT w/ MG usually doesn't do too much apperiable damage.) Plus MG 42 can be dropped from behind by commandos. Plus isn't it counter productive to avoid battling, because then they will just cap your points?

[Black_Duck_1]

Commandos have been nerfed enough. The demo charge timer issue seems to be a bug/fug. My guess is that it will be fixed soon.
MP44 rapes Allies infantry more than commandos does. What is even worse is that Assault Grenadiers are significantly cheaper than commandos and have the same effect on Allies infantry.

[Vintage]

Commandos have been nerfed enough.

They really haven't received any nerfs. Just pretend nerfs that don't accomplish anything. The unit itself still largely has not changed.

[Rascal1974]

LOL theres just no pleasing some people, commnandos took a big hit in respect to the recent nerfs, and some are still not happy, and it seems they wont rest until the Brit faction is made complety useless.

Plenty of questionable OP areas with both wher and PE still, but not many complaints, WHY? firstly the split of people playing is weighted heavily towards axis, Secondly Wehr just seem to winge more than rest instead of just getting on with it

[scoiatollo]

- Commando Infantry reinforce cost increased from 25 to 35

- British Commando Concealing Smoke and Commando Grenades share timers - abilities cannot be used at the same time.
- British Commando Glider, with the exception of the Glider HQ, will not allow reinforcements or be able to build units outside friendly territory.
- British Commandos cannot capture when using Concealing Smoke. Using smoke while capturing will stop the capture.

- Commando Gliders will be able to land anywhere except enemy base sectors.

Yeah Vintage I get your point no nerfs after all...

[Vintage]

- Commando Infantry reinforce cost increased from 25 to 35

This is the only significant nerf, which isn't even significant. Everything else doesn't really matter. They still smash Wehrmacht infantry with ease. Oh wow they can't land in my base!!! I am safe if I am in my base. It is my safe zone where Commandos can't hurt me!!

Plenty of questionable OP areas with both wher and PE still, but not many complaints, WHY? firstly the split of people playing is weighted heavily towards axis, Secondly Wehr just seem to winge more than rest instead of just getting on with it

Well sorry but the split is not heavily towards Axis. Almost every poster I see that can be condemned as an "Axis Only" player cares about balance and will post in regards to buffing Allies in some categories and nerfing Axis in others. Many of the posters who can be seen as "Allied Only" such as Scoiatollo have displayed through their many posts that they really don't care for balance, they just post for their agenda to hopefully get their favorite faction buffed so they can win easier.

[scoiatollo]

Not being able to reinforce on enemy territory is huge, smoke and nade sharing a timer is nothing you call a buff either.

If you missed the point of commandos, they are supposed to kill infantry! That would be like Tiger doing no damage against tanks. And no they won't come early unless you send your troops T1 into suicide missions. We are talking here about a 560mp AI only unit and don't forget that Brits are already the most mp intensive army existing in CoH.

Many of the posters who can be seen as "Allied Only" such as Scoiatollo have displayed through their many posts that they really don't care for balance, they just post for their agenda to hopefully get their favorite faction buffed so they can win easier.

Bullshit! Quote some statement I made regarding that where I didn't excuse myself in case I have been wrong or stop flaming me. In fact I was for some wehrmacht Buffs or other balance solutions that would have been not even half as drastical.

[BikerGnome]

MP44 Inf rip up comandoes, several vet grens will beat them up enough to force a retreat, pumas work, ostwinds work, anything with armour basically. There are lots of commando counters, just most people want to fight them with vanilla PG's and then cry foul. Mortars and grenades also work if they drop smoke, as does attack ground. They are an elite unit but at 560mp they should be

[Goret]

Their head is still sticking out of the ground! Keep hammering them down!

Seriously people i think they are fine now. Their main issues are fixed.

[Dryden]

dont nebels help vs demo-ninjaing commandoes? I thought they cant demoing while supressed.

[yupi]

OMG.

I'm plaing a bit for all factions. I'm a very bad Wehr player but still even in 2.201 I don't have any problems with comandos considering their cost. Grens with HMG rape them. Any armor rape them. A bit of blobbing rape them.

So where is the problem?

If your low skill put you in trouble it's your fault.

And by the way I said that I'm not a good Wehr player but still having the same lvl with all factions in 2.201 for me Brits are the hardest to play for, not against. And looking at nerfs that comandos recieved they are by no means are OPed now. I don't think I will use them in new patch much because of nerfs.

[Wilson]

I think they can, and if they're in your base you don't really want to fire nebels into it.

[Dryden]

nebels arent like V1. Aim them to open area where you think commandoes are and your buildings will be fine. Or they wont be fine after 2-3 minutes of demoing You choose.

[PeterPeterson1]

That's called faction diversity.

- PE & WM; have cheap squads that cost more to reinforce.

- US; have cheap squads that cost less to reinforce but have high upkeep.

- Brits; have expensive squads that are cheap to reinforce. Having to replace lost squads is about twice as costly as it is for the other factions.

Personally I don't really have any problems with commandos except when they drop right on top of me. Most of the time I can just kite them, the same can't be said for Rangers.

PE has cheap squads? hmm do you mean 255 or 360 for a 3 men squad? Which means 85 MP/120MP each men. Commandos have 85 for each men too!

Deionarra, i don't know what you want. PE have expensive squads that are expensive to reinforce.Having to replace lost squads is about as costly as it is for the british faction.

[scoiatollo]

A 360mp squad that comes with mp44 which are normally T4 as Wehrmacht you forget to add. Don't forget that PE have the luxury of a cheap capper whereas Brits cheapest capping unit would be the Lt with 280/10 (or if you want to spend no fuel 450/35 for a recon squad). What's also nice is that all there squads are able to repair stuff whereas Brits have to wait till T2 to get a 320mp repairing unit. It's not alone the mp difference that should be taken into account, rather their overall performance.

[PeterPeterson1]

I did not forgett to add this. Deionarra only shows the mp difference and i want to show that he is wrong with his statement. Nothing more.

I know the mp44 is really good and has a devastating effect on british inf! But that is needed as a counter to the Lieutenant+inf blob. PE has no really good weapon team. And a fast stuart is a pain in the ass to all stg44 guys.

But i don't want to quarrel with you. this thread is about commandos and stg44 squads are the only inf counter. And all i want to say is that building cost and reinforce cost of assault squads is equal or more expensive then commandos.

[scoiatollo]

Inf HT and Mortar HT >>>> any weapon team in the game

And no, StG44 is not the only inf counter. LMG42 ie on (preferable) vet2 Grens rape commandos, 2 overlapping mg42 are better than commandos since they can't throw nades anymore while being camoed, Flamer (although they are very fragile unless they are vet3) counter commandos, G43 slow plus inc nade counter commandos. These are all infantry based counters, some of them even T1.

Tbh with most of them you will need a certain level of micro to success but it's simply not true that there are no inf counter for commandos.

[Goret]

There are tons of counters and if you don't have one ready when they first drop, the officer can force retreat em. Has saved my nebels, base, mg and non vetted grens more than once.

I find it harder to deal with ranger as you can't effectivly use light armor (puma/flamen) on them when they arrive.

[PeterPeterson1]

Yeah like the officer, the lmg42, vet2 grens and flamers PE has!

I only talk about PE! And in my games i build Logistik Kompanie first (4 men squad and ATnades) and then Panzer-Jager Kommand (marder and stg44). Mostly i have no 60 fuel for the first Mortar and no 40 fuel for the Infhalftrack

[scoiatollo]

Well that's your decision than. I don't blame tanks being op just because I skipped the 17lb or Piats in order to get a fast Cromwell.

As US you also have to decide if you want to risk a WSC start or delay your teching for racks and WSC. So where's your point again?

In vCoH existed something called tactics that most seem to have lost after OF got released...