What happened to all the cool technology from the Somtaaw?

[Moe]

REally, what happened? They had those cool Ion fighters from the Bentusi, which kicked major ass against capital ships. They had the drone frigates. They had the cool multibeams which would kill dozens of fighters. And they had the Archangel Super-battleships which would kick anybodys ass anyday, anytime. So what happened to all that cool stuff? Did they just lose it and forget how to produce it?
And it seems to me that the res collectors in Cata were also way more advanced than the ones they have now...

[F'Lar]

im sorry to say, but the somtaaw where embelishing the story. there where no ion fighters, no inertialess drive system. none of that happened. they just wanted themselves to look better

[Cyan Leader]

Homeworld 2 is inspired on HW1, not in HW:C.

[Joshmaul]

Originally posted by Cyan Leader
Homeworld 2 is inspired on HW1, not in HW:C.

Exactly. Cataclysm was more a "continuation" of the HW1 story than a sequel. I think (don't quote me on this, I haven't played all of HW:C yet - just the demo) that after Landfall in HW1, the kiiths went their separate ways, but with the threat of Makaan's invasion, they reunited under Karan S'jet for the coming war and put their kiiths' individuality aside - for the moment. This is probably why there is no Somtaaw ANYTHING - technology, ships, etc. - in HW2.

-Joshmaul

[IWAssassin]

There are generally three possibilities. I'll explain them from most likely to least likely and why.

1) They never existed. They were exaggerations, outright lies, or twists that got applied over a game of telephone. This is most likely because some things cannot be explained ANY other way. Energy Cannons and deflector shields are two of these. Instead of "Sentinels have a shield projector" it was originally "Sentinels shielded the fleet by providing better reconissance data" Energy Cannons were "our gunners shot with an accuracy so good the projectiles seemed to track the enemy" became "our gunners used weapons that tracked the enemy"

2) Advances in Technology from Cataclysm lead to a quantum leap in design thereafter. Within weeks Hiigaran fleets were equipping Frigates with these micro-ion cannons so that a Frigate could take on a FLEET of Taiidan. Unfortunately one fighter was eventually captured and reverse-engineered. This lead to a period where within weeks capital ships for a time became pointless and fighters dominated the battlefield as only they could be missed by light Ion Cannons and their comparable lack of armor became irrelevant. Over time technology adapted in ARMOR and WEAPONS tech, slowy rendering micro-ion cannons obcolete. Today ships are THOUSANDS of times more resistant to firepower, and once again small-Mass Drivers have exceeded the capacity of equivilant sized Ion Cannons. Unfortunately there is an upper limit on what Mass Drivers can do, and as such the largest ships still have Ion Cannons, but they are thousands of times more powerful than Ion Cannons of 100 years ago as they remain based on the micro-ion cannon technology, just expanded many hundreds of times. Explains why the WEAPONS arent used any more, as a 100 year old Siege Cannon wouldnt even damage an Interceptor, but is highly unlikely in terms of physics and doesnt explain shields no longer existing.

3) Bentusi Tech was loaned out to the Somtaaw and had to be returned after the Beast was defeated. Least likely because the Somtaaw would be VERY unlikely to return ships to the Bentusi as we know they are liars and thieves from the game. The Bentusi to get it back would have had to include an AI Virus with the plans, that could infiltrate COMPLETELY alien systems, look for all SIGNS of tech and destroy it. The bentusi would then have to take back the models that were built to prevent reverse-engineering. Unlikely at BEST. Furthermore it explains less than the 2nd option as shields and energy cannons would still exist.

Of course only one reason matters, and thats the non-story one. Relic puts SOME emphasis on realism, and energy cannons, siege cannons, Ion Fighters, and shields are not only not realistic but really bad for balance.

[The Collector]

Bentusi probably blackmailed them to destroy the technology. Probably snuck a Tradeship back in after the Naggarok blew up.

[IWAssassin]

Addendum: Drone technology is explained away most easially. Remote control is easially overridden. AI is easially confused. Shortly after the Beast War, the Imperialist Taiidan developed technology that confused the AI of the Hive Frigates, making the swarmers not attack at all because the identified the Taiidan ships as "Friendly." In less than 24 hours the Hive Frigate went from one of the most powerful in the Hiigaran Fleet to absolutely useless and the Somtaaw, the last Kiith to have continued work on drone technology, abandoned it entirely.

Also applies for Leeches and other micro-craft except the piloted Sentinel.

[IWAssassin]

Except a Bentusi tradeship wasnt a match for a Somtaaw fleet BEFORE you got Ion Fighters. Now that you do, not even the Bentusi could match the power of your fleet really...

At least not the Bentusi seen in Cataclysm.

[SuccendoSLS]

Or maybe Cataclysm was a cosmic accident that the universe forgot about becuase it screwed HW2 up. All Somtaaw dissapeared from the universe simultaneously and no-one noticed.

[The Reflection]

First of all, I don't think that the Bentusi have "completely alien" systems necessarily. Remember, you were able to send them resources, and more importantly, they were able to send technology - presumably as information to you in Homeworld and Cataclysm. That implies that they had some way of interfacing with you - either they really can reverse engineer alien computer systems quickly, or there is some sort of Galactic standard that the Kushan learned when they captured the Taiidan system. Whatever the case, it is clear that by the fact that they even can send technological plans and audio communications to you in a format that you can use is evidence that there is some sort of interface, and given that the plans were nearly instantly available, I'm presuming that they can send over executable programs.

In computer science, there is the notion of a Turing-complete language. Theoretically, any universal Turing-complete system - this includes Turing machines, computer programming languages, and quantum computers - can execute instructions that are equivalent to those that can be done on any of the others with sufficient programming and interpretation of data. To be of practical use (so they can add new ships and manage a bigger fleet), presumably the Kuun-Lan's computers would be such a universal system, and the Bentusi would be capable of sending over a program that can manage construction of ion fighters - even if the Somtaaw have no idea how it works.

Especially, since in the ship descriptions, the Super Acolyte is described as having a "crystalline energy source" that is "3 to 4 orders of magnitude" (traditionally, "order of magnitude" means power of 10, so that's 1000 to 10,000) more powerful than anything the Somtaaw have, and several ship characteristics are listed as unknown. It seems that the Bentusi simply sent over a "black box" in which the Somtaaw simply put in RUs and get out Super Acolytes - with the Somtaaw of having little idea of how the insides work.

Secondly, why is it so hard to believe that the Bentusi, when they were preparing the ion fighter plans/program to send over for the Somtaaw, that they added a few lines of code here and there that deleted the program after a certain trigger (say, destruction of Naggarok, or a signal from the Bentusi, or a time limit) was detected? It could even be passive - when the program was run, it'd make a check, and if the date was after a certain point, it would delete itself. If you've ever used shareware, you probably have had the experience of having those popups which say "You have 5 days to register!" or which say "Your 30 hours of use is up!". Really, there's no reason you couldn't have a program uninstall itself in a similiar manner. (And similiarly, the onboard computers on the ion fighters would be running when that trigger happens, and could lock up and command the fighter to retire to itself). If the Somtaaw never run it, though...well, then, they can't build any ion fighters anyway. And, remember, not only are the Somtaaw systems possibly alien to the Bentusi systems except for an interface, but it works in the reverse direction - such that the Somtaaw may have no idea how the Bentusi program works, except for the interface.

Or let me put it this way. Let's say that you had good reason that there was a time limit in your operating system that would cause it to self-destruct. So, just do us a favor and reverse engineer Windows (or whatever you are using) and scan it for any such code. Of course, in this scenario, the programmers didn't include any documentation on the code, since of course, they don't want you playing around in it. Oh, and you have maybe...24 hours to do it. Maybe 48. I don't think that's reasonable. You might as well be a Wright Brother trying to figure out a F-22 in a day or two before the technology is withdrawed.

As far as the siege cannon...well, the backstory does claim that the Kushan turned inwards sometime after Cataclysm. Also, the Somtaaw wanted to "bury the past", even retire the Core. I could see them retiring the siege cannon - which is primarly a heavy offensive weapon, useful for attacking huge ships like the Naggarok - of which, the only examples seem to be the Bentusi Tradeship, who are allies - and for thinning out fighter swarms - though it's probably safer just to use anti-fighter weapons. I get the impression that during this inward turn, most Hiigarans began to grew secure and the Imperials as a threat were reduced - because they were fleeing outwards where they'd meet up with the Vaygr. So, there really wouldn't be a need for the siege cannon. Or for that matter, given that Karan Sjet seems to have great influence and authority that everyone respects, she could have just told the Somtaaw to retire it, and they might have willingly complied because of her seemingly mystical knowledge provided by the Second Core.

Or failing that...maybe a Turanic or Imperial saboteur blew it up. They destroyed some of the modules on the Kuun-Lan before, maybe they could do it again...

Multi-ion-beam technology...The Somtaaw MBF had weak ion cannons. An ICF is better in terms of delivering power against a single target. But, it's quite possible that the MBF technology was adapted into (or contributed to) the pulsar beams on the corvettes and Battlecruiser. Or, it's possible that there were other ships more suited for the anti-strike craft role than the Somtaaw MBFs. After all, the missile volley of a few Missile Destroyers could pop whole wings of fighters out of the sky. (Whatever happened to that technology, anyway? I think its absence is just as strange than the Somtaaw MBF story-wise, even if it would be unbalancing...)

Finally, though I can understand what you mean with Homeworld being more realistic than Cataclysm... Um...just when exactly did hyperdrive (or FTL drives in general) become anything more than occasional speculation? Personally, I think a siege cannon is actually more realistic than FTL drives, which would have to invoke unknown physics, be suspectable to pesky quantum fluctuations that may destroy it, and according to current calculations, would need the mass-energy of like, a galaxy, as fuel to operate...

Spoiler

(Or for that matter, why exactly is the phased cannon array of HW2 more realistic than the siege cannon?)

[-V-]

Simple: MBF Helix Bundel evolved into Pulsar Cannons.

Energy Cannons: They are used on fighters now a days still (I'm gona say that they never actually tracked, that just seems wierd)

Ion Fighters: Self destruct program that after X condition is met the ion cannon systems disintigrate, and the plans purge themselves.

Drones - Proprietary Somtaaw tech that they didn't want to share, heck in the big file there's a Drone Frigate Entry as well so they were going to be in-game, but got cut.

Perhaps interceptors are infact drones, since they fly in formation, always, and seem rather stupid, and disposable.

Seige Guns: Stationary planetary-defense weapons. I mean after all the thing was originally used to assault hardened asteroid frotresses, it seems to me that overall it's mobility should be rather low, and after all MS2.0 was launched in a rather big hurry.

And on those that Siege Guns are a HW:C invention, Remember those Taiidani border outposts that had cannons who's bore-width was almost that of the length of a CARRIER? if a siege gun is a H-Bomb, then one of those things is a frikkin' Death-Star.


Sentinel Shields: Defense field frigate, after all if the D-Field in HW worked indefinatley, why dose it suddenly need to recharge?!

And simply put, debating realism in HW, is like debating if wether the sky is Pink or Green.

[Langy]

Reference the last:

Because they never explain it, Reflection

[-V-]

Eh, they never really explained the Seige cannon beyond "It's a big Frikkin' Plasma Cannon, that goes Boom, and makes a shockwave"

I guess it's bad aftertaste of being seige-rushed to death while they slowly and methodically built up their MS, and fleet only to take a seige shot or 2 and be Fishboned/Dead.

[Wirlwind]

siege cannon evolved into sajuuk and dreadnaught. =P

[Yminale]

Alot of Somtaaw technology still survive in HW2.

Fighters don't need to refuel.

The multibeam frigate evolved into the pulsar corvette and ion beam turret

The Drone technology evolved so one fighter could control others (that's why you build squadrons instead of individual ships)

All motherships, carriers and battlecruisers can be outfitted with modules like gravity wells.

Resource collectors can repair.


All the Somtaaw vessels were either advance prototypes unsuitable for wide deployement (dreadnaught, hive frigate, multibeam frigate) or were emergency retrofits (carriers, destroyers, ramming frigates) so of course they are not going to show up.

As for the siege cannon, it's probably the only one of it's kind.

[crobato]

I pretty much have to agree with the last post. HW2 seems to me more of an evolution of Cataclysm than HW1, not just in interfaces but also in ship concepts.

I dont' think the Somtaaw had any Core at all, or otherwise you have to explain how they have two motherships. Just remember they also have a deep explorer ship.

Modular ship technology, pioneered by the Somtaaw Explorer class, are all over the every big ship in HW2.

Pulsar technology appears to be an evolution of both the Energy cannon technology (common in Cata) and the Micro ion beam technology, which by the way, the Somtaaw didn't invent but the Nabaal. Somtaaw just used that technology. The Nabaal probably got that technology from the Kadeshi. Remember their multiple ion beam frigates?

Drone/swarm technology also came from the Kadeshi before it went to the Hive Frigate. I suppose they went to the strike craft, where a lead ship remotely controls all its wingmen. The Vagyr seems to make better use of it.

The Somtaaw also introduced EMP technology. It's standard now with all scouts.

Then there is the super efficient drives which removed the need to refuel. Now standard in the HW2 universe.

The Siege cannon itself was a very inefficient weapon, like the Big Bertha cannons in WWII. They were naturally phased out in favor of more efficient weapons.

The Sentinels become the Platforms.

The Processor became the Mobile Refineries.

I would say that the HW2 destroyers are more modeled after the Somtaaw Deacon than the HW1 destroyers. The Deacon featured both turrets and missiles, while the HW1 destroyers are either a turret gunship or a missile ship.

The Somtaaw Dreadnaught is the model for the Battlecruisers, combining both missile and gun techs. The Heavy Cruisers in HW1 use nothing but guns and ion beams.

Be aware that Somtaaw capital ships introduced self healing technology, which is also standard in HW2.

The Somtaaw Resourcer became the model for all Harvesters in HW2, replacing the flying "truck" miners of HW1. It combines both resourcing and healing capabilities.

Beast Cruise missile tech probably laid the basis for the Torpedo.

The Turanic Raider missile corvette probably laid the basis for the Vaygyr missile corvettes and frigates.

There are many techs however, that never made it to HW2.

The Heavling Beam technology from HW1.

Gone also is the Mimic technology.

Also not making its appearance is the Leeching technology.

So is the Repulsor field tech.

And the "fushion" technology that allows two Acolytes to become a single Corvette.

And finally the Tugs are gone too.

[Swiftiee]

Crobato has the best explanation. Hands down.

[IWAssassin]

While you can write a computer system that accepts universal instructions, you can also make backups of data [one thing most sci-fi seems to ignore], you can reverse engineer code, you can reset system dates on your clock, you can have extremely unusual security protecting your files.

The bentusi GAVE the Hiigarans an Exchange unit, thats how you can transfer things. They didnt give the Hiigarans their production bays or anything else. With ANY kind of security system it would be impossible for the bentusi to delete ALL copies of the data.

The Siege Cannon is less realistic than the Phased Cannon Array for one simple reason - shockwaves dont exist in space. On the other hand for all out knowledge the Phased Cannon Array is nothing more than an advanced Ion Cannon that blasts holes through things that we simply dont see due to HW2s lack of some more detailed effects.

The MBF is simple, and agreed - prototype for what became the Pulsar Corvette. Drone tech was more likely a limited duration technology, that once everyone made counters for it, it became useless. Again remote control and AI control are two VERY unreliable technologies against an opponent of almost equal technological advancement.

The Dreadnaught... in the end a ship with 2 Ion Cannons and a bunch of missiles. Simply later replaced by ships that either had heavier missiles [torpedo frigate] or bigger guns [Destroyer]

Really the only one that really works as an explaination is that most of the "technology" didnt exist. Some did but evolved into something else. Some existed but was very limited technology useful only for a short period of time.

[crobato]

The Somtaaw Dreadnaught is much close to the Hiigaran and Vagyr Battlecruisers, combining ion beams, energy cannons (became pulsars) and missiles into one platform with self healing or repair bot technology. In addition the Battlecruisers have modular ship tech.

If you get to look at all the techs in HW2, Cata, and HW1, there are far more techs derived from Cata than anything in HW1. In fact HW2 is a smooth evolutionary progresion from Cata, which in turn from HW1.

If you want to decanonize Cataclysm, sorry, but in essence, Cataclysm provides a much more superior explanation to so many of the techs in HW2.

One tech I didn't add on the Somtaaw side was the Bentusi hull technology the Taaw acquired and use to build the Archangel. Somehow, it's not there in HW2, but it can be explained by the fact that the tech may be so exotic and expensive to use, it wasn't cost effective. So are the other techs like leeching and mimic.

And I guess Kamekaze, both as a military tactic and as a technology (like in the Mimic corvettes), have been completely banned in the HW2 time period for reasons of morality.

[The Reflection]

Oh, yes, you can make backups. That doesn't mean that the backups will work. Much like the copy protection for computer programs - people are having trouble backing up Homeworld 2 itself. And just as the Somtaaw can have computer security systems, the Bentusi can put in security in their software. They, for example, could put in their own timer in their program - or program them so that if they detect tampering, they simply don't work. Even now, we have copy protection; surely a starfaring race that is centuries ahead of us and who's probably traded with unscrupulous customers could figure something out.

According to Cataclysm, the Bentusi are hooked into their ships - and most likely their computers. We also know that they are very old and probably have had computers for millennia - while the Kushan are a newly spacefaring race. That means that the Bentusi should have a clear head start.

And remember, the transmission was unexpected. The Somtaaw weren't planning on the Bentusi showing up and had set up security measures in anticipation for it. They are in the middle of a battle, fighting for their lives, and they recieve an unexpected gift. Likely, virtually all of them were more concerned with fighting then reverse engineering a technology that would probably take years of study to duplicate.

And not all computer systems can be easily reverse engineered. Perhaps if they had all the time in the world, the Somtaaw could crack the ion fighter program. But I doubt the Bentusi would give them more than a few days. And they don't even need to threaten them militarily - economic and political threats, given that the Bentusi are among the most powerful living races in the Galaxy, and one of the few allies the Kushan have in a dangerous galaxy still filled with Raiders and Imperials, could pressure the Somtaaw into backing down. If nothing else, the other kiithid - Karan Sjet herself, even - could tell Somtaaw to stand down.

In principle, the human brain is a computational device. But although we've made siginificant progress into figuring out how it works, we still can't exactly explain consciousness, and it will be a long time before we can duplicate one.

The siege cannon, while visually has an unrealistic shockwave, actually does damage in a roughly spherically symmetrical fashion. This isn't too unrealistic - gas or plasma will expand rapidly in a vaccuum.

[Ogre King]

I think it's kinda sad that Relic totally ignored Cata when making HW2, when most of the tech from Cata has evolved in Homeworld2

[Swiftiee]

Originally posted by Ogre King
I think it's kinda sad that Relic totally ignored Cata when making HW2, when most of the tech from Cata has evolved in Homeworld2

Morgan "Entrippy" Jaffit said:


quote:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All the Cata stuff happened. The plot of HW2 stands alone - alone from Cata and alone from HW.

However, if you *have* played Cata and HW, you'll spot nods in the plot and script to prior events - there are a lot more nods to HW than Cataclysm, but the Cataclysm events are not entirely ignored, either.

They're just not focused upon.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[IWAssassin]

Actually you can explain it all with HW1 tech quite well without Cata.

Things we cant directly explain in HW1s tech is actually quite limited... in fact limited ONLY to the EMP which is an obvious tech anyway and the Flak Frigate which has no equivilant in Cata.

Hiigaran BCs have no missiles. They're more like HW1 HCs than a HWC Dreadnaught in that manner. Destroyers are a merger between a HW1 Heavy Cruiser and Missile Destroyer, sporting 4 Twin Heavy Guns and 2 Missile Tubes. Torpedo Frigate is an evolution of the Missile Destroyer. Pulsars are a direct evolution of miniaturized Ion Cannon Tech.

Vagyr tech is different as they would have never had Somtaaws technology to start with.

So we have the sole contribution that Cata made to HW2. A mention of the Somtaaw Kiith in the background guide. Noteably missing is pretty much every tech that Cata introduced. Energy Cannons are NOTHING like Pulsars and dont exist. Microships are gone but thats explainable as evolution in counters to AI and remote controls would have led to that [Hiigaran fighters fly in formation because of INTENSIVE training, whereas the Vaygr are more mob-like]. Siege Cannons are Gone, Ion Fighters are Gone, Shields are gone [note the DFF is more like the Taiidan DFF than shields from HWC thus more a HW1 tech]. The sillyness of the SHAPE of Bentusi ships adding power is gone. Ships with billions of anti-fighter missiles are gone.

We're left with EMP as a contribution and even that is questionable.

[Ogre King]

Originally posted by Swiftiee


Morgan "Entrippy" Jaffit said:


quote:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All the Cata stuff happened. The plot of HW2 stands alone - alone from Cata and alone from HW.

However, if you *have* played Cata and HW, you'll spot nods in the plot and script to prior events - there are a lot more nods to HW than Cataclysm, but the Cataclysm events are not entirely ignored, either.

They're just not focused upon.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well what are those nods that they have put in then from Cata? Also why did relic but in Somtaws Dreadnought in the Trailer?

[Shivasan]

Honestly, if all the stuff in Cata was made up, so could the stuff from Homeworld.
Put simply, the Hiigarans could all be evil, tyranical despots who attempted to overthrow the galaxy, and were put down and forced into exile. The whole Homeworld story could be a fabrication, painting them as "peaceful" people who were unjustly persecuted. Their return, and subsequent rise to power in their own space could actually have been a twisted version of a group of outerspace bikers taking over a town and terrorizing all the people, with the Vaygr being the goodguy alliance trying to stop them, and the evil thug Hiigarans just lucked out and found the Sajuuk ship and fabricated a story about a religious prophecy that predicted their worthy rise to dominance, and then massacred all the poor, innocent citizens of the galaxy who opposed them.
Remember, history is written by the winner, not the loser.

Works about as well, and is as likely, as the Cata events being all lies.

[IcePirate]

Crobato said it all. HW2 is a clear progression from Cata.

The missing techs? I rationalize them as just having been outdated, ineffective against newer techs and so retired.

It really would have been nice for the Somtaaw to have been in a cameo shot somewhere in the game. Just to put an end to the "it never happened" argument.

[Ogre King]

Originally posted by IcePirate
Crobato said it all. HW2 is a clear progression from Cata.

The missing techs? I rationalize them as just having been outdated, ineffective against newer techs and so retired.

It really would have been nice for the Somtaaw to have been in a cameo shot somewhere in the game. Just to put an end to the "it never happened" argument.

Somtaaw was in Homeworld2 in the trailer untill Relic got an idea and threw them out Download the trailer and you can clearly see their Dreadnought ship taking a beat from pulsar cortvettes

[areoborg]

Mimic and Leeching technology are rather easy to explain.

Both use ingenious ways to fool enemy sensors, so they would be in a race with the people who design sensors. Once a way is found to detect them, they become useless... at least until they find a new way to fool the sensors.

At the current time, the sensors department is in the lead, and can see through the Mimic's holograms, and can read the leech's transmissions, making both units useless. Now, by the time an add-on, or HW3 comes out, the Leeches and Mimics could be on top and have found a way to fool the latest generation of sensors. making them useful once again.

[Homdax]

This thread offer some very interesting reading.

But, as Relic developed all these games, Relic must have made decisions as of how to implement past, present and future ships and armament and all that goes with it.
Now, these decisions might have been made in a discussion similar to previous posts in this thread, or with an entirely different approach: which armament and ship config will attract the most buyers?

With a serious risk of being VERY cynical, I think that there is limited time for the kind of discussion represented by previous postings in this thread.

There are some prerequisites IMHO,

1. The game can not be too much like HW1 and HW:C. It must appeal to new audience as well as to the old. The oldies can make up their own discussions but I suspect there might be a sense of failure if the game is compared to, and found, too much alike previous games in the "series".

2. As much as I too like the ships and the weaponry of HW:C (bcause I do, thats among the best ships around and I voted that commandship the best in the series so far, with a BIG exception for those dockable fighters) HW:C is a sequel to HW1, given the experience with HW1. We will most certainly see a "sequel" to HW2. Maybe reconnecting a bit to the Bantusis that are, IMHO, an important element to the backstory of all the games. (Do we come across these again? Only on lvl 3 soo far...)

I have deep respect for the ppl that takes the time to get in to things, but I suspect a lot of that belongs to fiction, and has not that much to do with Relics decisions on how to make the game.
And if I am wrong, I will be gladly surprised that cash-flow doesnt rule in Vancouver, yet.

[PogoMonogo]

actually homeAGAIN!, most of this arguement is due to the fact that Relic did NOT develop Cata. The major differences are based in the different takes the two developers took with certain ideas and technologies.

[crobato]

What do you mean Relic did not develop Cata? They did provide the foundation and the direction, and I'm pretty sure both Relic and the Barking Dog people looked at HW closely to determine the most logical way to evolve it. As an "expansion pack", Relic still has some say over Cata's development.

As to the guy who thinks EMP is the only Cata contribution, well guess again. I wonder if you ever played Cata at all.

What about Self Repair Technology?

What about Platform technology (from Sentinels)?

What about Micro Ion beam technology?

What about Mobile Refineries?

What about Resourcers?

What about efficient engines?

What about Modular ship design?

And yeah, look at the Energy turrets. They are pretty much like Pulsar technology.

And you keep forgeting that the Somtaaw destroyer is the original fusion of both Missile Destroyer and Destroyer into one. Not to mention the first to have self repair capabilty.

And how is Vagyr tech different? Some of their ships actually look more like the Kushan's, such as the destroyer and the corvettes. They probably learned techs from capturing ships, just as the Hiigarans learned Defense Field technology.

[Frosty_V2.1]

Gotta agree with the above post for the most part.
I think Kiith Somtaaw and Paktu's joint venture into ion beam technology may have paid off quite well for the pulsar tech, though it does seem a bit different compared. However that can be explained by the cooling needed to keep such things powerful enough for "today's" armour and defenses not being practical.

Energy turrets I think stood away a bit though, the auto tracking and loss of the more primitive but brutal, and not to mention more satisfying boom, of regular cannons wasn't great IMO. Which makes me happy that they may have just disappeared somehow or were just not effective enough anymore.

And what trailer is the Somtaaw Dread supposed to be in? The official one? I must go check out the trailer on the disc if that is the case.

[Dazz]

Ok back to realitiy, Cata was deleveoped by a 3rd party company and may not have anything to do with the oringal of Homeworld or Homeworld 2, arguing over it is just plain STUPID!

[Homdax]

Dazz,
I dont get it,
ppl have a nice and calm word about the different development of our favvo games, and You just go ahead and call us all stupid.

:naughty:

Contribute with Your views, and dont get upset for intelligent ppl expressing themselves, some in VERY well thought texts here...

BTW, Who thinks Barking Dog made Cata by its own...?
Not me...
...at the very least they must have had access to the HW sourcecode, or am I being stupid assuming this?

[ToasterOven]

Originally posted by Dazz
Ok back to realitiy, Cata was deleveoped by a 3rd party company and may not have anything to do with the oringal of Homeworld or Homeworld 2, arguing over it is just plain STUPID!

no u

There were things in Cata that were pretty cool, and there were things in it that were cheesy (read: energy cannons, beast). All in all I'm satisfied with the tech choices in HW2.

[Homdax]

I took the liberty to post a poll about this
Maybe not all wanted techs but a few I remember as very "cataclysmic"
So, go vote...

[The Collector]

I don't want Somtaaw tech because to make things fair: Makaan would have them too! x.x

Considering that the Taiidan republic was there (not everything TR died in my game, a few support frigs and HC floating around), they could probably scan or reverse engineer dead stuff and gain a tech advantage or something.

[EH_AceTFL]

one world. HW1 cywilization have better techs then HW2 one. Why? In hw1 all fregates can hyper whereever they are, in HW2 NO. In cata - cata was forgeted by Sierra And.... Now....... well.. we lost many great techs (for example i think that wing of about 40 acolytes with full ubdate can easy kill Higarian Command Ship), we lost Energy Beams, Micro Ion cannons, Microships, swammers (!) all lost. Why? Cywilization reseted or somethink? They lost their minds? HW2 history isnt the best what we can have..

[megatronX]

You also have to remember that the Kiithids (Spelling?) were pretty introverted in themselves, none of HW:C would have happened had the Kith Somtaaw askes for help from one or more of the larger kiiths

Though its quite obvious much of the new technology is seen in in HW2 and has either been leeked or exchanged by Kith Somtaaw. what we don't see around is either unusable technology, thats too expencive or difficult to adapt for the Somtaaw fleet or technology which they have kept to themselves.

I thing drome frigate would have been rendered totally redundant once flack frigates came on the scene, they can destroy an entire wing of fighters in two shots, imagine what they would do to tightly packed drones

[Admiral_Sjet]

Everything can be explained from HW1 to HW2. Here we go:

1) Pulsar Beams: The Manual even states that Pulsars are short-wave Ion Cannons. Its not that illogical to think that through the course of 100 years, the most powerful weapon the Hiigarans have (Ion Cannons) would be toyed around with to make better weapons from it. Sure, it might have been derived from the Multi-beam frigate, but the MBF was essentially an Ion Cannon frigate with a beam diffuser, so that one Ion Cannon could be broken and diverted to five or so turret points. Pulsars are very different from MBF shots. Its more likely that Hiigaran scientists stufied their Heavy Cruisers and found that creating a shorter-wave beam would require less energy (as most shorter wave thigns do) and developed the Pulsar.

2) Sentinels and Shields: Sure you had shielding things and little ships. These should be still in use. But consider for a second that tthis would require not only building a combat ship, but 12 or so sentinels, which each only cover a certain portion of the vessel and require crew. etc. OR you could just create a more powerful armor that is probably used on HW2 Hiigaran Ships. Just look at the Battlecruiser to see how much armor there is. It would require less resources and less energy to make ships more resilient than to build a sentinel fleet, thus they could be phased out or just used for even more protection of lacking stations.

3) Drone Frigates: I agree completely that AI and Remote constructs would be hard to control when facing an adversary of equal technological strength. They should be phased out.

4) Micro-ships: Same Problem

5) Missiles: They were used to design the torpedo. Since the Hiigarans have a good Strike Craft complement, they really dont need an entire capital class vessel just to deal with them (not to mention they probably have Grav Wells to do this now). Instead, they design a way to create a very damaging torpedo to attack Capital Ships with (and they have Flak Frigs for the rest)

6) Energy Cannons: Sure you might have Energy Cannons, but in my opinio, you can only go so far with energy weapons. Hiigarans are probably big fans of Physics, so they design a warhead to be shot out of a Destroyer Cannon that would do exponentially more damage than the energy cannon, at the cost of tracking. Better strategically and realistically.

7) Siege Cannon: Probably a B*@!% to repair all the time. One misfire and the Bentusi refuse to fix it and then its useless. Gone from the universe.

Therefore, I find that most of the technologies from Cataclysm to be either phased out or useless in the HW2 Warfare setting.

[EH_AceTFL]

Originally posted by megatronX
Though its quite obvious much of the new technology is seen in in HW2 and has either been leeked or exchanged by Kith Somtaaw. what we don't see around is either unusable technology, thats too expencive or difficult to adapt for the Somtaaw fleet or technology which they have kept to themselves.

2 Worlds. COMPLETE CATALCYSM. In last movie 2 Kushan Fregates attackin infected Acolyte.. and they use.. .. .. ENERGY CANNONS! Else, almost ALL ships seened in HW:C have energy cannons.

Other question how Taidian can hiperspace? Someone know that?

[areoborg]

We know that energy cannons can track, and it isn't due to some sort of seeker warhead, or anything like that. My guess would be that it is attracted to magnetic fields generated by the enemy ships or a similar phenomenon. If the target ship were to change its magentic field (or whatever it is homing in on) the energy rounds would be repeled away from the target, rather than attracted to it. A simple, low-level magentic field would be enough to confuse the energy cannons and make them unreliable in full combat, and prompting to Hiigarans to go back to the less accurate, but more relyable mass drivers.

And as for the Tiidan hyperspace... they're using the watered down first core designs the Bentusi were handing out, just like the rest of the galaxy.

[IWAssassin]

From HWc a lot of the technologies are lost but Frigates losing Hyperspace... not exactly.

One has to remember that MP is NOT SP and not canon. In HW1 you couldnt ultra micro jump frigates, but you could jump them with the fleet because they have hyperdrives. In HW2 similar story and the proof is in they can jump but strike craft STILL have to dock.

The Multiplayer inability to jump is a balance issue, not a technology one. The people at Relic felt it was a GOOD idea to have destroyable hyperspace modules. However everyone here will tell you it would be a BAD idea to have 21 Frigates all in the build screen able to build all of one module. The Wake Generator was seen as an acceptable compromise for multiplayer as thats the only place ultra-short-jump modules would be used.

Strike Craft again have to dock implying that the Frigate has a hyperspace module, but for balance reasons its only modeled on the heavy ships.

[Krogoth255]

Relic simply ignored what happened in HW:C which is best describe to be a alternate HW universe story. Although, there are some ideas from HW:C that influenced Relic that appeared in HW2 which some examples are mention ealier in this topic.

[EH_AceTFL]

Hmm why the heal nobody here dont completed Cataclysm? Go do mission 2 (it isnt hard really!!).. and look what hyperspaced near your cs (support fregates / mimicks), then when you fight with raiders attacking beast probe look again. TURRANIC STRICKE fighters hyperpspace. So they can.
Other, Can hyperspace core be cloned? If yes, what is difrence between Hyperspace core and drive?

[areoborg]

The HW1 manual said that the reason why strike craft must dock is because of the power requrements for the hyperdrive. If the Tiidani or the Turranic Raiders have a more powerful reactor, or a more efficient drive design then they could mount the drives on strike craft. They have had access to the technology for 4000 years, where the Kushan had to re-invent most of their technology from 3000 year old wreckage. That would give most of the other races in the galaxy a significant leg-up over the Kushan. The Tiidani hyperspace the fleet that is sent after the spy in the mission where you capture the resource collectors and a frigate, and they are all composed of ships that must dock (asside from the frigates, of course). So most of the races probably have hyperspace-capable strike craft out there.

If the Hiigaran admirals feel that hyperspace capable strike craft are a waste of resources simply because their standard operating proceedure is to have strike craft support the larger ship, rather than operate independantly, then they wouldn't use that technology in future designs.

As for the hyperspace core, it seems that it can be cloned, but the clones lack the range, and the other mystical abilities that the originals have. Obviously, there is an element to the originals that cannot be duplicated by the current races.

[EH_AceTFL]

so.. what bentusi vessal have orginal HIperspace core. What have all other?

[areoborg]

The Bentus had the core. The Strat Guide mentioned that the Bentusi could hyperspace their ships from other areas of space by using their core, and we know that shortjumpers in close proximaty to a farjumper can jump very long distances.

My personal idea is that the Bentusi normally hyperspace their entire fleet around, much like you did in HW1. But when you encountered a lone ship, Bentus hyperspaced it there, and then recalled it back to the harborship when it was time to leave. It allowed their entire fleet to farjump without having each ship carry its own farjumper. Presumably the Hiigarans can pull a similar trick with their own core, but they don't know how yet. They didn't realize the cores had that ability in the old days, and they've only had 100 years to study and experiment with their core, where the Bentusi have been playing around with the core for who knows how many thousands of years.

[jinpachi]

All these storyline explanations are a waste of time. Cataclysm was made by barking dog, not relic, they decided to put some new stuff in. Storyline is what somebody is hired to write after to explain it. End of debate.

[-V-]

I Will say HW2 is more related to LoTR, then it is to HWC and HW. HW:C Just went with the plot of HW, and expanded on it, it used real-life events (Fall of USSR, Rise of the Russian Federation) and moddeled them in game (Fall of Taiidan Impirium, Rise of the Republic). The weapons were also moddeled on real-life weapons advancment. (Out with dumb bombs, in with smart bombs, seeking tank rounds, smart-bullets), so overall I would say HW:C is more Cannon then HW2, heck only reason now that I keep HW2 around is for the game engine, the SP Sux.


Seige Cannon: Not one of a kind, it was just odd that one of them was mounted on a Command ship, since it seems to be a very heavy emplaceable weapon, not a mobile one. Kind of like a tank with a 205mm Howitzer strapped to the side of it's turret, could do, but usually don't. Also What about the Flak-frigg's flak shells, look like Mini-siege guns for anti-fighter use there..hehe.

Beast: ST's The Borg, but diffirent.

Energy Guns: Maybey they were rendered ineffective by some sort of magnetic deflection as someone mentioned, or they were just further refined to the point where they were almost identical to mass-drivers, and are used instead of them. (Logistics reasons, pluss you don't have to waste tons of resources on ammo)

HW:C Moduels: HW2 moduels.

MBF: Pulsar Beams, the helix bundle was basically a more compact ion beam generator, and the MBF just used that with beam-splitters for anti-fighter, further improvment of the helix bundle may have resulted in compact corvette-mounted ion cannons. especially since corvettes have that alrge circular middle section that could house a helix-bundle to power it's ion turret.

(Also by the laws of physics shorter wavelength = MORE energy)