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Well, it sucks against avatar and knarlok. It sucks compared to landraider, baneblade and darkscythe (you said that: " The thing about the T4 relic tanks is that they are just better ocmbat units
").
What do you see on the BT? It's been the same since dow.There's nothing good about him. It's just not worth it unlike all the relic units I wrote.it's not effective in combat. It doesn't give any bonus. Takes 5 pop. Looses health. Flying? Almost useless in t4 except to escape from counters.
Chaos drives you better through times with no Tyranids than Tyranids through times with no Chaos.
Fhtagn!
I'm just gonna say that unlike the bloody shooting comunits aka Tau . SM do need a Land RAider to survive in T4 Soulstorm , we didn't need it in T4 Dark crusade because we where a whole lot stronger .. SM/Tau armies are so strong there's no real need to get the relic units out. While other races (like Necron/IG) cant compete at t4 without them.
SM did not get any big lategame nerfs...
BT can't be stunned and it's basically there to back door the other guy. While his army is fighting yours the bloodthirster destroys his base. Nothing like deteching the poor sob to win the battle.What do you see on the BT? It's been the same since dow.There's nothing good about him. It's just not worth it unlike all the relic units I wrote.it's not effective in combat. It doesn't give any bonus. Takes 5 pop. Looses health. Flying? Almost useless in t4 except to escape from counters.
Plus I've read the baneblade loses one on one to the BT do to it only being able to fire like 3 guns at the thing in melee combat.
Jumping over walls + 200 fruiting DPS to building low and high = BT rocks.
Even without that, his 14000 HP makes him worth his cost easy. Simple fact is that every single uber is worth their cost in HP alone and no single race should actually regret buying him in any circumstance, barring ones where they get ripped off for pop cap: Hence I suggest none should cost pop.
#56
The BT beats most other ubers 1v1. I know for a fact it beats the Squiggoth and Avatar. The Knarloc I'm not sure about, that's probably the only one that could beat him in a straight 1v1. It beats the ranged ubers (Baneblade, Landraider, Dais) pretty easily. Not sure about the Living Saint...but it's fairly weak, I wouldn't be surprised if the BT beats her as well.Plus I've read the baneblade loses one on one to the BT do to it only being able to fire like 3 guns at the thing in melee combat.
You have no idea how useful the ability to fly wherever you want is until you've tried to get your squiggoth to turn around and just face the right damned direction for the umpteenth time.Flying? Almost useless in t4 except to escape from counters.
White_Pointer
#57
Plus the BT can come from aspiring champions, so you can have a BT and a DP on the field at once.
Can't the BT or Saint fly over the Baneblade and wack it from behind?
Or is this a really stupid question?
#59
You can jump over it and start whacking it from that side...unless it turns and shoots you again. But then that's the baneblade's fault for moving.
Lets see,
Merker, #54: Bloodthirster can be stunned.
Immortalchaos, #55: Yes Bt does a lot of damage, has lots of hitpoints, like every other relic unit. I don't get how things that all relic units have make BT good compared to other relic units.
Whitepointer, #56: Well, flying is uber for a squiggoth, a unit with bad pathing problems, than can transport squads and shoots. But not so great for a BT. Stop giving cheap lessons please. Good ones welcome.
fuggles, #57: So now having to sacrifice a unit and lose it's req for an underperforming relic unit is a good thing?
I'd like to make discussion about general problems in t4 and not about specific units. We have to put examples but let's not make the discussion about them ( that goes for me too).
Do you think balancing t4 is possible? Is good for the game? Worth it? Can be t4 balanced at a tier1-tier2 level?
#61
The point I was trying to make is that flying is not an ability to be underestimated. The squiggoth's transport ability...now that is something that's almost completely useless due to the thing's pathing problems and how long it takes to turn around and get into position. You're better off using Wartrukks.Whitepointer, #56: Well, flying is uber for a squiggoth, a unit with bad pathing problems, than can transport squads and shoots. But not so great for a BT. Stop giving cheap lessons please. Good ones welcome.
Seriously, the BT's ability to jump into your opponent's base and wtfpwn it before they can blink is pretty damn impressive. And it's been established it's no slouch in combat either, being able to beat most other ubers in a straight 1v1 fight. I'm not entirely sure why you think the BT is worse than any other relic unit.
I'd like to know what these "general problems" are, because I seriously don't see them...apart from the Dais, what else is there?I'd like to make discussion about general problems in t4 and not about specific units.
White_Pointer
Well the looted leman needs it. But whether or not the orks need a tier 4 tank is another debate entirely. (I'm on the side of "no, they don't, but it would be nice to have something that's as good as their tier 2 vehicles that's only buildable in tier 4.")they (tier 4 tanks) dont really provide any special effects or have and perks that help bring themselves to the top- not like they need it.
As for the bitching about relic units; get over it. There's TWO tanks and ONE uber. They are NEVER the decisive force in a 1v1 game, and they can't fight a proper army. Balancing tier 3 had a much larger impact on tier 4 balance than touching relic units ever will, and for the most part it's irrelevant what's even possible in tier 4 given infinite resources, simply because tier 4 itself is overpriced and outclassed by tier 3.
#63
@grendizer, the BT does not underperform. It flies over the other army and knocks the base out of it's foundations...and yes, I'd consider sacrificing a mostly dead unit for a huge beast a good trade.
Sacrificing the aspiring champion for the Bloodthirster is actually a good thing - yes, you lose a unit, but it lets you summon the BT anywhere you can get a (cloaked!) CSM squad.
If you've got more requisition than you know what to do with you can even summon the BT from the Sorcerer, after using all of his spells and teleporting into the ideal position. He'll be built again, with all abilities recharged, in 40s (which is shorter than the recharge time of all his spells).
People, focus. We've gotten off-issue here in an argument of Which Relic Unit is the de facto best.
The question is the impact of fixing their pop costs, thus making all of them free, pop-wise, to field - an issue which helps basically every race involved, since it means 3-6 Vehicle or Infantry Pop they would be sucking down otherwise being freed up.
Also, the Avatar fix; Pop bonus it gives is an IMBA Dinosaur from Vanilla and it'd be getting removed in the fix (but the Avatar wouldn't cost pop now in exchange, so there you go).
The removal of pop costs helps every race in more-or-less the same way on the Relic unit front:
Chaos doesn't blow 5 pop on the Bloodthirster anymore, meaning that you're not completely screwed if you lose a few squads in the field when he's out.
The Avatar no longer gives his filthy IMBA Pop bonuses in this fix - I'm sorry to all you Eldar players, but just because it's a throwback to Vanilla and doesn't get the discussion it should because few matches make it to Tier 4 in 1v1 doesn't change the fact that it's broken in half.
However, you do get benefits from this fix, and you'd be insane not to see them! The fact that he doesn't cost 5 Infantry Pop anymore actually winds up freeing up a single Infantry Pop (not huge, but I've seen many situations where one more squad meant the difference between victory and defeat!), and means you won't have to delete a squad or two just to get him out (which rocks). Even better, your tank gets a fix too, freeing up 2 Vehicle Pop - see below.
The Land Raider not costing 3 Vehicle Pop frees up enough pop to field most SM Vehicles, and will most certainly mean that the SM will have better flexibility overall. Without it taking up cap, you can actually afford to use the Whirlwind a bit more, or play around a bit by providing additional support in the form of Dreads, Hellfires, or Landspeeders of either flavor - not bad at all. Even better, the SM get another 2 Vehicle Pop from the tank fix, freeing up a grand total of 5 Vehicle Pop!
The Imperial Guard, like SM, get 3 Vehicle Pop freed in the change. This is nice because it lets you slam in a few more vehicles to the already vehicle-reliant Guard, allowing you to have an additional Basilisk, 3 Chimeras, or whatever other vehicles you want to stuff in the slot. Versatile and borderline-essential. With 2 more also being freed up by the tank fix, you'll have 5 pop to play with - which means you'll really be able to mix it up.
The Tau wind up with the Knarloc not sucking down 5 Vehicle Pop. Even with the Tank fixes (see below), this frees up 3 Pop, allowing the Tau greater flexibility and the ability to field just a few more units - whether you toss a Skyray or Drone Squad, or even a trio of Devilfish, you're going to be playing with more vehicles from this fix.
The Necrons are utterly unaffected by both the tank fix and Relic Unit fix; they're already compliant. Learn from their example, people.
The Dark Eldar gain a walloping Six vehicle cap in this fix - huge, because the Dais consumes close to a third of the DE Vehicle Pop! With this freed up, the Dark Eldar have more capability of fielding things that aren't the usual Dais/Ravager/Ravager combo, which currently consumes 70% of the Dark Eldar vehicle pop. There's no question that this fix helps the Dark Eldar vehicle situation a lot, and it's a fix they frankly need to keep them viable. With the pop you free up, you'll be able to field more vehicles - whether another Talos, 2 Raiders, or a whole score of Jetbikes.
The Sisters of Battle are, like the Necrons, already 100% compliant on this front. Their T-4 Heavy already costs 4, and their Relic Unit is already free for Infantry Pop. Win on 2 counts.
Da Orkses wind up with 5 pop cap freed - 2 from the Tank fix and 3 from the Uber Fix, much like the Imperial Guard and SM. This gives the Orks better flexibility and lets them field more armor without fear, and lets you field much better support (it saves more than enough to field a Fighta-Bomma). With the Ork war machine already having a good deal of flexibility, this helps them dramatically.
Almost as good as the Relic unit fixes I mentioned is the standardization of T-4 Tank Vehicle Pop costs, which are almost unilaterally a buff for every race but Necrons, Chaos, Dark Eldar, and the Sisters of Battle. In this example:
* All T-4 Heavies, with one exception - the Penitent Engine, Looted Tank, Predator Tank, Chaos Predator, Leman Russ, Fire Prism, Krootox, Hammerhead Gunship, and Ravager - will cost 4 Vehicle Pop. This stops double-penalizing races for simply fielding their T-4 Heavy, and stops making for relative free rides on races who currently pay less.
* The only T-4 that does not cost 4 Vehicle Pop is the Lord Destroyer - he costs 2 Vehicle Pop. This is because he takes other vehicles over, and when he does, his Vehicle Pop cost changes to reflect the possessed unit - so if you take over a Chaos Predator, he becomes 4 Vehicle Pop in cost. You can go over pop with this method, but it does hamstring a Necron Offensive if they do, since if they lose a valuable unit like a Tomb Spyder or Heavy Destroyer, they won't be able to rebuild it until the unit is killed. It's no more IMBA than using Ress Orb to go over pop as a result.
And those are the changes overall. This is, unilaterally, a buff for every race. So you can keep score, here's how much Infantry and Vehicle Pop are freed by every race using this fix:
Chaos: 5 Infantry Pop (Vehicles already compliant)
Eldar: 1 Infantry Pop, 2 Vehicle Pop (Loss of Avatar Pop Bonus)
SM: 5 Vehicle Pop
IG: 5 Vehicle Pop
Dark Eldar: 6 Vehicle Pop
Orks: 5 Vehicle Pop
Tau: 3 Vehicle Pop
Sisters of Battle: Nothing (Already compliant)
Necrons: Nothing (Already compliant)
And there you have it. This is a good fix overall, since it helps every race, balances things out for everyone, and kicks a mechanic that should have been removed years ago in the nuts.
That is, as we say - Win-win.
Jaimas, that's one of the best posts I've seen on this forum.
It's also an awesome idea, and one I'd love to see at least in a mod. Wouldn't Necrons and SoB get slightly hosed at T4 though?
#67
Jaimas is the Relic Unit of balance issues
My website is finally up!
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Jaimas my sincere Congrats . It's been a long time since I've seen on any forum a balanced post and without any bull . When i fist look at this thread i thought it was a idiotic make all races the same whine , but like the IG fixes you proposed this one are bloody brilliant . Now if we could rally the community to accept your proposal .
Althou you forgot the Whirlwind
As for me i got a msg for all SM player "Rally Squad" . Cast your vote here , relic should include this changes in their Next patch .
BTW : Jaimas are you trying to become a balance dev ? Cuz you're on the right path.
Dubya tee eff is with the rediculous ammount of praise for Jaimas when he is simply repeating my suggestions?
Actually, I don't know if its a bug or not, but the Bloodthirster does indeed take 5 pop cap again (in SS). That 5 pop only shows when its actually summoned though.Chaos doesn't blow 5 pop on the Bloodthirster anymore, meaning that you're not completely screwed if you lose a few squads in the field when he's out.
Lab screenshot : (Look in the top left for pop cap...)
So the BT does actually need help. That or he needs returned to what he was for pop.
It is not a bug and it has done that since vanilla.
Despite the fact that uber units intentionally cost a lot of cap back in vanilla, times have changed (A LOT) since then, and the simple fact is that relic has completely ignored T4 balance and the residing stuff from the old games (really weird uber cap costs, avatar pop bonus) have got to go.
I was simply commenting it was not as Jaimas said, they made it take 5 pop cap again - and it got no buffs or balancing in return for this huge 'nerf'.
And there was another infantry research you could get in DC, so that it didn't affect you - thats gone in SS now.
Jaimas did not say that that is how it was, rather that that is how it should be.
Then I misread. My apologies.Jaimas did not say that that is how it was, rather that that is how it should be.
'Tis all good, at least we can all agree that the BT costing 5 cap is dumb!
Dumb and wears stupid pants made of dumb.
Jaimas, I don't agree with you very often when it comes to Eldar, but I absolutely agree with you in this case. I can't stand how much infantry room needs to be left to build the avvy. It drives me nuts. I would be absolutely thrilled to take away his pop cap cost and lose the pop bonus. Besides, more units makes harder micro, and Eldar are all about micro.The Avatar no longer gives his filthy IMBA Pop bonuses in this fix - I'm sorry to all you Eldar players, but just because it's a throwback to Vanilla and doesn't get the discussion it should because few matches make it to Tier 4 in 1v1 doesn't change the fact that it's broken in half.
However, you do get benefits from this fix, and you'd be insane not to see them! The fact that he doesn't cost 5 Infantry Pop anymore actually winds up freeing up a single Infantry Pop (not huge, but I've seen many situations where one more squad meant the difference between victory and defeat!), and means you won't have to delete a squad or two just to get him out (which rocks). Even better, your tank gets a fix too, freeing up 2 Vehicle Pop - see below.
This sounds like a lot of people are on-board. Provided enough approve, I'll cheerfully send this off to the appropriate authorities for review and - god willing, implementation.
That's way too many changes, and lots of varying buffs to lots of factions. I'd support maybe toning down the pop cost of the chicken, and reducing the avatar's bonus, but all of those changes are gonna cause a mess.
Actually, aside from the fact that most races don't get completely pop-hosed, there's not a terrible lot of big changes, nor does this really have much impact on the metagame besides not fucking players over ipso facto. How do you figure this is too much?
#81
There's one thing people are failing to see here.
What are all those changes to tier 4 units going to accomplish? I'll tell you - not much. You aren't really changing anything aside from giving races the ability to build more vehicles or infantry in tier 4, turning tier 4 into a potential spamfest. It's not going to change the balance at all, so really, what's the point?
White_Pointer
Well since this is fixing such a non-issue, why not change it?
Never heard the phrase "If it ain't broke don't fix it?" Tossing out alot of little changes can have more effect than you might think and if its to effect a minimal overall difference, there really isn't much point.
"Artillery lends dignity to what might otherwise be a vulgar brawl." --Frederick The Great
#84
Ummm, because it's a non-issue?Well since this is fixing such a non-issue, why not change it?
White_Pointer
Only tech orgys go to T4.
lol n00b
So just because competitive games dont often get into the late game relic should completely ignore it and leave it shattered, spread all over the floor?
No, they shouldn't. And I recall in the "question the beta testers" thread it was said that there wasn't a lot of time spent looking at things beyond the lower tiers. Now its all well and nice to show such attention to balancing something but I don't quite fathom the logic of stopping halfway there.
I don't think Tier 4 or any tier is horribly broken, but there are surely a few things which could be tweaked across the board.
Such as theT4 unit cap costs which are some of the most obviously wonky things in the game...
Hey, that is pretty much all that is asking to be changed here!
Does anyone else think Necrons would need a buff to survive in tier 4 if every other race had relic units costing 0 pop?
I don't think just axing the pop on all relics is much of an answer, anyhow. As I said, tweaks across the board not "one tweak across the whole board". If you want to specifically address, say, the Eldar and their Avatar pop bonus that's one tweak and should be looked at individually. The Necrons don't set an example, they mark an exception.
@ White Pointer/SpArty
Fixing the relic units would have a nice effect on team games, on QS, in the campaign...
I don't even like 2 out of 3 of those, but I'm not so stuck-up that I'm going to say they don't matter.
'Fixing' the relic units is not a huge amazing change - but it definitely wouldn't hurt/needs to be done in a few cases. Heck even such minor changes as increasing the turn speed on the Gnarloc/Squiggoth would increase their usefulness 100fold (a slight exaggeration).
P.S. And no, axing the pop cap for all of them is NOT the way to go.
Personally though I'd only make changes to the BT, the Squig and the Gnarloc though.. Squig/Gnarloc need to move/turn a bit faster... and BT needs its pop use removed, or it needs some kind of in combat regen, A la zerks - or just some kind of regen period. The whole degeneration thing is insult over injury to Chaos players.
Edit: I'm kind of of two minds about the Avatar. On the one hand, very much eldar flavor/playstyle, on the other, the pop bonus is a little out of hand.
Last edited by Gerrymanders; 4th Apr 08 at 11:56 AM.
The BT already has good in-combat regen.
erm, well, why are you buffing Chaos, Orks, DE, IG? None of them need late-game buffing. Your proposed update is just shafting all of the factions that aren't getting 5 pop freed up, some more than others (Necrons and Sisters now have +5 pop differential to deal with, did you think they were OP'ed or something in the first place?)Originally Posted by Jaimas
It's not a buff for every race, it's a nerf for races that aren't getting as much benefit as others.
I swear to crap, if I see one more half-assed "it's a non-issue so ignore it" post on this with no further elaboration, I'm going to summon forth the dark gods lurking under the forums.
Let's look at a few of the issues being discussed here, shall we? Like the Avatar Pop Bonus. I may not be the king of all things balance, and I may have struggled to so much as get my automatch score over 1000, so it's entirely possible here that I am missing the point. However, I am looking squarely at what is clearly a dinosaur of a balance issue problem that simply hasn't been fixed since Vanilla in this:
* The Avatar provides 10 Vehicle Pop.
* This allows the Eldar to go up to 30 vehicle pop.
* This allows them to field dramatically higher numbers of vehicles than any other race, and Eldar are certainly not weak in terms of fieldable vehicles.
* This is fucking borked.
"Oh, but Jaimas!" I hear you cry. "It's in Tier 4! How many matches reach that far in?"
...To which I respond that your insistance that it's a non-issue shows blatant ignorance. The Avatar's already providing fucking DOUBLED PRODUCTION RATES (which basically smoke any other race in terms of being able to crank out units) and morale immunity for anything near him, on top of being an insanely powerful melee combatant.
There is absolutely NO FUCKING REASON that he should be providing this Pop bonus, and I choose to point out with no end of amusement, there remains no legitimate explanation as to why the Eldar even need it in the first place.
But I digress. Let's look at the other armies for a moment, and stare directly at the Vehicle Pop equations and Relic unit pop cost arrangements for a moment.
First of all, it's blatantly obvious that certain races are getting fecking reamed a lot more in this department than other races, just from T-4 heavies alone. SM, Eldar, IG, and Orks lose about a quarter of their pop each per T-4 heavy, whereas Chaos, the Dark Eldar, and SOB are chillin' with a 4-pop Heavy and the Tau are laughing at the lot of us with their 3-pop heavies. The Necrons remain the odd-ducks-out, but Immortal and I have explained over and over why their pop cost for the Lord Destroyer is fine and dandy. The Eldar in the current environment don't mind, but this is entirely due to the retarded Eldar Vehicle Pop boost which makes their T-4 heavy an afterthought and lets them play with 20 remaining Vehicle Pop after they're built. Oh, that's fair.
Where this goes screaming well-past ludicrous speed is when Relic Units get tossed into the mix. You want to field 2 Heavies and a Relic, which most forces have to do at some point, with the exception of the already-compliant Necrons and SOB? You're looking at - at least - 11 pop cap in the current environment, and that's the Tau, who have the least trouble with this due to their low Tank Pop costs. For everyone else, you're looking at 13-14 Pop burned just for the 3 units. It fucks the Dark Eldar especially hard, given their 6 pop Relic vehicle (which needs fixes of its own).
The fix I've listed along with Immortal fixes the pop cost issues that are absolutely smashing every player in the face every 5 seconds in regards to this issue. This works unilaterally better for every single race except SOB and the Necrons, who - again - are already compliant.
By all means, keep going on about how this is a non-issue and thus doesn't need adjustment. You'll continue to be flat-out wrong, and I'll continue to keep pointing it out.
...No they aren't. Nothing is getting nerfed save for the Eldar pop cap bonus, which has needed to die in a fire since WA, and has been complained about since time immemorial.It's not a buff for every race, it's a nerf for races that aren't getting as much benefit as others.
PROTIP: No one back in the day could legitimately justify it either.
The Tau Tank pop costs are brought in line with everyone else, sure, but they still wind up gaining vehicle pop in the exchange. For everyone else this is a minor buff which basically lets everyone else field an extra vehicle or two or not be completely hosed and having to delete units to get their relic out (Avatar) or be screwed when your units die in the field and you end up unable to replace them (Bloodthirster).
The SOB and Necrons are already compliant. Again, they're just fine. Where is this talk of nerfage coming from?
It's a non issue so ignore it.
They're not "compliant" they're "internally balanced" ... you like that phrase, don't you?
Removing the Eldar pop cap is fine, changing the pop on the Avatar is fine but that does not mean every single relic unit should be 0 pop. I'm failing to see the course of logic which justifies that which is good for one is good for all.
Why is it so hard to understand? For example, Orks now get 5 more vehicle cap than they previously did vs. the necrons, so the necrons lost a net 5 vehicle cap vs. the orks. The necrons lost leverage against the orks, they now have to face 5 more ork vehicle cap, while the necrons themselves cannot field any extra units to counter this. Extend this to all other races, which got more vehicle cap than the necrons, and the necrons essentially got nerfed by virtue of all other races having more cap than they previously had vs. the necrons....No they aren't. Nothing is getting nerfed save for the Eldar pop cap bonus, which has needed to die in a fire since WA, and has been complained about since time immemorial.
PROTIP: No one back in the day could legitimately justify it either.
The Tau Tank pop costs are brought in line with everyone else, sure, but they still wind up gaining vehicle pop in the exchange. For everyone else this is a minor buff which basically lets everyone else field an extra vehicle or two or not be completely hosed and having to delete units to get their relic out (Avatar) or be screwed when your units die in the field and you end up unable to replace them (Bloodthirster).
The SOB and Necrons are already compliant. Again, they're just fine. Where is this talk of nerfage coming from?
This also applies to everyone that doesn't get +6 cap like the DE, only to different degrees. It doesn't matter one bit that everyone's cap got upped, all that matters is how much everyone got upped relative to each other.
That doesnt mean necrons got nerfed, that means orks got buffed so they could deal with them.
The necrons and SoB are currently overpowered in terms of pop cost because their uber units cost none.
Making other races share the same benifits buffs them to similar levels, not nerfing crons/SoB which both have extremely powerful uber units that are certainly imbalanced in that they take up no pop. Minutely so? perhaps. Is if evened out by the rest of the army? in some cases, yes, but this is in fact a simple case of the rest of the army being weak and the race having bad internal balance.
So If I made the force commander take 5 pop there would be no problem?Removing the Eldar pop cap is fine, changing the pop on the Avatar is fine but that does not mean every single relic unit should be 0 pop. I'm failing to see the course of logic which justifies that which is good for one is good for all.
The same thing applies here, it is just later in the game where pop caps are bigger and there is a lot of other units in play.
No, the same thing doesn't apply at all... where do you get your arguments from?
#100
It's not borked, and quite frankly it hasn't been borked since DC when Fire Prisms got limited to 2. Sure, it was an issue back in DoW and WA when you could field 10 Prisms, but now that you can only field 2, there is nothing wrong with this mechanic. What are the eldar going fill that extra vehicle cap with? Wraithlords? Nightwings? Vipers? Every single one of those vehicles melt in a tier 3/4 fight...the best they'll be is a speed bump.
I am getting seriously tired of people, especially you Jaimas, who don't do anything but complain about these things. I mean seriously, when you aren't going on about IG doing no morale damage in melee you are complaining about the avatar bonuses and I've had just about enough of it. Like it or not Jaimas, you are saying "Eldar get something other races don't, so they shouldn't". Saying you should remove the vehicle cap bonus from Eldar is like saying SM shouldn't have Orbital Bombardment, or that Tau shouldn't have cloaked capping units, or that Orks shouldn't have waagh banners. It's ridiculous and needs to stop now.
It's not broken, and it doesn't need fixing. There, you didn't get a half-arsed response.
It's already generally accepted that SoB tier 4 is pretty weak. And tbh apart from the Monolith itself, Necrons don't have a good tier 4 either. You can just run away from the Nightbringer until it runs out, and Lord Destroyers aren't going to be destroying anything in a hurry. So yes, I agree with guys like streak that across the board changes like this is just going to benefit some races and fubar the others.The necrons and SoB are currently overpowered in terms of pop cost because their uber units cost none.
Again...I need to ask, what exactly is wrong with the current tier 4? No-one has given me a justified reponse yet.
White_Pointer
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