¿?
I'd swear it asked me for it, anyway I might be wrong.
I'll check it.
Thanks!
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¿?
I'd swear it asked me for it, anyway I might be wrong.
I'll check it.
Thanks!
I'm hardly a pro (about 40 automatches), but in my humble opinion...
I think the power researches are too expensive and not worth it unless you already have a ton of gens (9+). They take like 4~5 minutes before they even pay for themselves, not profitable at all. Buying more gens is almost always better.
Wraiths are fantastic in tier 1, but in tier 3 they only make it as far as their invincibility will take them. Losing the ability to pin down squads for your NWs to shoot is a real party killer.
Enemy infantry with strong, long-range weapons is the biggest problem facing Necrons at the moment (namely Tac mass with HBs/Plasma, and similar things). FOs and Solar Pulse can force them to run for a moment but it doesn't provide a solution for killing them. I think reinstating the range boost on the 2.5 NW upgrade may be worth looking into.
Addressing just one of these problems would go a long way towards making the Necrons more competitive in late game. Otherwise I think they're doing fine.
#103
That's kind of the point.I think the power researches are too expensive and not worth it unless you already have a ton of gens (9+). They take like 4~5 minutes before they even pay for themselves, not profitable at all. Buying more gens is almost always better.
This is what destroyers are used for.Enemy infantry with strong, long-range weapons is the biggest problem facing Necrons at the moment (namely Tac mass with HBs/Plasma, and similar things). FOs and Solar Pulse can force them to run for a moment but it doesn't provide a solution for killing them. I think reinstating the range boost on the 2.5 NW upgrade may be worth looking into.
Chriss is that IG hater he wanted them to nerf everything about igs
@Chris,
If SM player got Tacs with plasma/HB, It certinatly wont be the problem for him to spare a weapon slot or two for few missile launchers.
Then go tie up the ML squads with the Destroyer.
When the ML squad turns to run, set the Destroyer back on ranged. When he stops running and turns around, go tie up again.
ML squads have a setup time and grenades don't affect vehicles, so you can do this forever, assuming playing with Necrons haven't atrophied your micro.
Hi Chris,
When you need infantry+vehicles to just stand against infantry, then something is wrong, isn't it?
Besides, don't think that Destroyers will stand for long against massed HB/Plasma. The idea os safricing a Destoyer just to let your infantry get in range is somehow ridiculous.
I agree 90% with Stuffman. The eco nerf is way too much, and NW, even with both upgrades, aren't a match against massed infantry with weapons. SP will make them run but then fire again.
Making them run would make sense if your troops where faster, so while on the run you could shorten the range, but, with slow NW, it's senseless.
When you come to the point that hero+artifacts+upgrades+vehicles aren't a match to infantry+upgrades...
well, being a noob as I am I can't be categorical but it seems somehow imba.
#107
Late game necs feel a bit like 1.4 orks, loads of units running semi-blindly into a wall of guns. The lords artifacts help a whole lot but it doesn't stop the warriors dying like flies once there used up.
Destroyers on melee help vast amounts but it only takes a few AV units to ruin there parade. I find myself relying on Solar Pulse far too much.
The economy nerf was very needed and i don't find that a problem. Yes the upgrades are expensive but with a good economy they give one hell of a boost.
The warrior range nerf i didn't know about. No wonder i am walking into long range fire unable to fire back until i have lost at least one full squad.
The_$h0gun - Exactly, because the beard = the law.
Please direct me to the post where I said I am playing with necrons?assuming playing with Necrons haven't atrophied your micro
Infact, I didnt played DOW at all for few weeks, but its pretty obvious that ML squads that are AV and built to counter destroyer will work well.
Tacs are generaly faster, strategy your suggesting wont kill him (maybe 2-3 tacs will go down), it will only force him to run (what lord + NW already do).
On top of that if he geats a dred (his own heavy support) your destroyers wont last long. Especially when HB squads are killing your immortals.
#109
Wait what, Tacs faster than Destroyers?
Destroyers are nearly twice the speed of Tactical Space Marines.
-It's not the fall that kills you, it's the sudden stop at the end (Douglas Adams)-
-Make something idiot proof and nature will create a better idiot.-
-Me fail English? That's unpossible!-
Faster than rest of necron army.
Means tacs gota run a bit, stop and make few shots at destroyer, run again.. and when destroyer is retreating shot him more.
Only problem is NL and his teleport, but that could be easily solved by having MLs in more than one squad.
it's true that in DC these weaknesses are fake.All the "weaknesses" you've listed were all fake weaknesses in DC. But now in SS, they're true weaknesses that a cron player must use skills to overcome, skills that were so unnecessary in DC, even expert players aren't sure how to play SS crons atm.
But in SS we get WORSE infantry and having these real weakness that should justify us getting BETTER infantries. so i still think that the nerfing went a little over board.
#112
If he is only using a slot or 2 then the destroyers have nothing to fear and if he's mixing heavy weapons then he'll be wasting missiles when shooting at infantry and bolters/plasma when he's shooting at vehicles. If he has a dedicated missile squad then his AV firepower is all the easier to disrupt. It's a win/win situation for the necron.If SM player got Tacs with plasma/HB, It certinatly wont be the problem for him to spare a weapon slot or two for few missile launchers.
No because you are ignoring game dynamics and oversimplifying things.Hi Chris,
When you need infantry+vehicles to just stand against infantry, then something is wrong, isn't it?
destroyers are tier 2.5
So if we are talking about tier 2.5 and tactical mass, SM player WILL have 4 weapon slots.
#114
And how many of them will be devoted to missiles? If the space marine player has an invincible wall of heavy bolter death then I would expect him to be short on missiles.
he can just build another unreinforced marine squad and add 2-3 ML.. thats what i would do.
#116
And he is going to just pull these resources out of where? Thin air? His arse? What does he do in the meantime while the destroyers ravage his heavy bolter wall?
Sounds a lot like ridiculous theorycraft to me.
Have you played as Necrons versus good SM players Chris? Who is doing the theorycrafting here?
"And no, I am not a Necron. You mistake the slave for the master." - Mephet'ran, The Deceiver
Chris if we are talking about one destroyer.. we dont even need the MLs, plasma can take care of him.
If we are talking about more of them, ask where is necron pulling the resources from.
You are forgeting that despite the setup time, tacs are faster than necron army (besides destroyers) and longer range.
They can just do hit and run tactic.
#119
You know, Necrons do have other options to get in behind SM heavy bolter walls. Phase shifted Wraiths can draw the fire as the rest of your troops move in. FO's can deepstrike in behind them. And destroyers, as Chris mentioned, can shoot them as they run away.
Necrons are significanly weaker in SS...yes...but I think they are still very powerful. They just take longer to get going now. Once they do get a roll-on they are still a juggernaut that takes a lot of heavy firepower to stop.
White_Pointer
#120
Not personally no but I've watched enough games to know that Necron have plenty of options against heavy bolter walls and so forth. Infact they probably have some of the best counters in the game. Yes it's true that trying to chase tricked-out tactical marines with just warriors and/or flayed ones isn't going to work but then what do you expect?Have you played as Necrons versus good SM players Chris? Who is doing the theorycrafting here?
Playing SM, I recall vividly that SM are the only squads you can role-split. You get less DPS vs. certain targets this way, but you also make the squad less vulnerable individually; I have seen 2 Missile/2 Heavy Bolter setups a lot, especially from newer players. It's generally inefficient, but it can work.
As for dealing with SM? Jeez, it's easy as hell as Necrons. Tacmass is easily dealt with; have a few phased wraiths rush in to tie up the squads, drop a Flayed or two behind the Marines, bring in Necron Lord for mop-up.
#122
I've seen advanced players do it too. As a matter of fact, when watching high level SM players they actually very rarely make dedicated AV squads - the missiles are almost always mixed in with HB's. A little less efficient, yes, but it makes it almost impossible to tie up all of their AV.Playing SM, I recall vividly that SM are the only squads you can role-split. You get less DPS vs. certain targets this way, but you also make the squad less vulnerable individually; I have seen 2 Missile/2 Heavy Bolter setups a lot, especially from newer players. It's generally inefficient, but it can work.
White_Pointer
You can also do this with Vanilla Chaos. It also works half-well on GMs, though I advise against it in general due to the "Ball-and-chain" fire range on the Launcher.
Anyway, the BIG problem for Necrons now is surviving against early rushes.
Who cares about über ML/HB squads when simple bolter tac mass can ruin your army.
No one is so stupid as to keep firing a shifted Wraith.
If I telly FO, they just out run them and then shoot them to death.
Seriously guys, for an infantry based army, NW are rubbish.
By the way, Wraiths cap at 2 and Destroyers at 3.
LOL. Te first one should be 1, from the very beginning of the game. Destroyers should be 2.
They are not that useful individually.
The thing is, NW are free. You're not fighting correctly.
Try to go with an early plod forward with Necron Warriors and the Lord, being sure to establish Obelisks as you advance. Do a little bit of jiggery-pokery by firing on any enemy units you think the NW can best, and use the Necron Lord to cause some trouble as well.
Should your Necron Warriors run into anything they can't handle, recall back and regroup, add a little bit of reinforcements that you produced to the front line, and sally forth. Use the Lord's mobility to annoy, but be sure you keep a good eye on his health and # of teleports remaining. You should, ideally, always be producing SOMETHING from the Monolith; if it's not teching up, it should be building something. ALWAYS.
When you get the chance, it's time to bait the trap. Push forward with Warriors towards the front line. Drop Flayed One Squads right into the midst of your foes, and have your Lord jump into the fun if he feels like it.
And all that while my enemy was away from keyboard or something.
Mate, no plan survives contact with the enemy.
There aren't but a few squads a NW squad can win without reinforcements.
Thanks for the tip anyway.
Stuffman's done this and was over 1200 for a bit.
What's your excuse?
#128
lol@ Jaimas - touch harsh?
Some of your replays might add to this discussion DENWODRILO, if you have some.
Hey, I tried being nice for most of the thread to no avail.
I think mixed squads for sm are more of a result of needing the AV(some and any) right there and now and only having say 2 slots in that squad where 2 HB guys died. In case of higher up players anyway.
Animator and a hobby modeller. Reel & contact: http://www.titovdenis.com
it's ok jaimas we still love youHey, I tried being nice for most of the thread to no avail.
anyway that is good advice, as an IG / SM player (in 1v1's at least) i find it disturbing how easy necrons can break up any tac mass. well, the good necron players that is...the bad ones dunno wtf to do
#132
Its all fair and good reccomending solar pulse for breaking up a ranged mass but if you want the better goodies later on you need to avoid the early ones.
How best to approach it with no upgrades on the Lord eh. lol
Lord teleport into the mass and target something weak for a sync kill to stop him losing HP while he is focussed on as your warriors waltz in, flayed x 2 slightly behind the mass to make running away slower and pathing more dificult, wraiths after the flayed from behind the warriors if in T1 or strolling in while invunerable in T2, its so straight forward it can be seen coming a mile away.
If you attack staggered formation squads the front squads run behind the rear ones and you get pretty badly shot up. The only way round it is either cc for tie up, which involves destroyers or flayed and/or lord artifacts.
As mentioned by Chris destroyers are great for tie-up but there huge anti-inf DPS is largely wasted.
It's a difficult situation really, dropping on a stationary bunch of guys with heavy weapons is bound to be very difficult to deal with.
Necron don't have the range to be able to make a stand-off of there own. They have to attack or defend but when they just sit there they get mauled.
#133
What [useful] combination would require you to avoid tier 1 artifacts altogether? To be honest I find that Viel Of Darkness and Nightmare Shroud are often overkill by tier 3. Sure it's cool to have a cloaked Monolith but do you really need one?Its all fair and good reccomending solar pulse for breaking up a ranged mass but if you want the better goodies later on you need to avoid the early ones.
Solar pulse/Phalactery/X is a very reliable combination vs ranged armies with a 3rd slot free, which I personally prefer to save for Nightmare Shroud, assuming the enemy has vulnerable morale.
Even with morale immune units, the Shroud still makes them run around in circles, for some inexplicable reason.
It's the lulz.
Last edited by killer-ra; 14th Apr 08 at 10:35 AM.
#135
I prefer to jump in and chronometron and solar pulse just behind the squads so if they come forwards they get shot and if they go back they can't shoot back as well as getting shot at the same time.
I've played with the others but its tough going tbh.
I agree, I think Chronometron and SP make a nice combo.
Does anybody know if the Ch. affects the rate of fire?
Movement speed only I think.
Edit: 40% IIRC
#138
Also affects vehicles which is nifty. I think chronometron is pretty good but once you get enough wraiths and destroyers it becomes moot, whereas solar pulse or lightning field continue to be useful at any stage of the game.
#139
Destroyers are a ranged specialist - sending them into cc should be a last resort.
Wraiths don't really do what they should after T1.5, not enough HP for the melee of a whole squad of unit x.
#140
Solar Pulse continues to be useful throughout the whole game. In fact, pretty much all the NL's artefacts remain useful throughout the whole game, which does in fact make them pretty unique in that regard.Its all fair and good reccomending solar pulse for breaking up a ranged mass but if you want the better goodies later on you need to avoid the early ones.
White_Pointer
It would be nice if Wraiths could get another upgrade at t3.
It should increase it's HP and reduce even more the ranged damage they take. Perhaps reduce PS reload time, I don't know.
Thus Wraiths would be useful throughout the whole game.
Just another idea.
@ Immortal
By "unit management" i did not mean "units' micro", but overall "units' build management".
NWs cannot be customized in any way, their range is too short, they do not have any means for disruption like other races do (no 'nades or necs' artilery for support aside of a monolith), etc. you can hardly customize your tactics on the fly, the best what you can do is to use 'recall' button, and pray that maybe you will come up with some idea and have enough res, to build some 'counter' that will postpone the inevitable. Wraiths do help, especially in 1.5 and 2. I also remember that quite efficent was to throw in a lord and FO in the group of infantry (cause infantry masses worked quite well vs necs'). Then when they tried to change position, sending few packs of scarabs, followed by a destroyer helped a bit. Unfortunately someone very smart, tweaked scarabs so that they can attack air units only.
Maybe adding the option for immortals for their gauss weapons being upgradable so they would be effective vs infantry (with small AoE bursts), but loosing their efficency vs vehicles and buildings would be a good addition? Other races simply outrange and outrun necs' (and now easily eliminate), and with heavy losses and loosing grasp on territory, the increased costs are soo much more painful. Although i must add, that Necs' upgraded turrets received a considerable buff. They have a long range and are effective vs anything that approaches the base, but that pretty much shows how heavy gauss weapon should work.
They're still the easiest race to use no matter how you slice it, and where they appear in terms of genral race power will not change that.
#144
What I mean is, once you have a good handful of upgraded wraiths disrupting the enemy (possibly using phase, possibly backed up with DSing flayed) then you've got the enemy on the move and then when the destroyers roll in, you have fast CC troops keeping them moving AND fast skimmers which can keep pace and pile on the ranged DPS (which is absolutely huge btw, 70-100dps vs most tier 2 units). Once you have destroyers and wraiths you don't need chronometron because now you have one of, if not THE fastest moving armies in the game.Destroyers are a ranged specialist - sending them into cc should be a last resort.
Wraiths don't really do what they should after T1.5, not enough HP for the melee of a whole squad of unit x.
Currently, I think the most useless NL's artifact is.... resurrection Orb.
Tomb Spyder vs Res orb :
-no cooldown vs cooldown ( forget the number ).
-both need corpses.
-3 units usable for resurrecting duty vs 1 unit usable and if it is bringing the artifact.
-can create other units ( except wraiths ) vs corpse = unit.
-both unable to resurrect pariah.
-free resurrection cost. ( the initial click to resurrect )
-the result is full HP units vs 50 % (?) HP units.
Disadvantage I can think of :
-Tomb Spyder need to walk while the NL can just teleport.
-Tomb Spyder never produce full squad but res orb can produce a full squad.
True, early game Necron can be pushed easier now. But if they still manage to live at 2.5.... prepare to get steam rolled by never truly died infantry wall....
#146
Has the change really affected the 99% turret and loiter playstyle that much? It's in a necrons interest to turtle surely?
Perhaps with nerfed NW, a new look at slightly tweaking res orb might be required. Full health again perhaps?
Like someone else said, I'd like to see a faster and more often unit resurrection.
People seem to overlook how powerful the increased res chance is that is the passive res orb ability.
Seriously, with this thing near your army, half your losses are going to reassemble upon death.
What is this buff you speak of?Although i must add, that Necs' upgraded turrets received a considerable buff.
There was no necron turret buff. Their upgraded turret is still byfar the best due to the fact that it actually increases its anti infantry and its anti vehicle damage.
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