[2.3] Churchills Baserushing Wehr, any counters?

[Reverie]

:disclaimer: Sorry about making a separate thread, but I think this deserves a discussion of its own.

Churchill baserush against Wehr is a very viable and devastating tactic. The second you get to 3cp and 600mp, bumrush that thing directly into your opponent's base.

See, the Churchill has heavy crush, extremely heavy armor, an ok gun on a turret, and tank shock to deal with troops. The only AT available at that time would be fausts, schrecks, Paks and perhaps StuGs. Now we know tank shock basically nullifies infantry, and we know the StuG is even less maneuverable than the church. The only counter left is the fragile and less than mobile Pak, whose shells bounce off churchills regularly. Conclusion? You can end the game then and there just by running around in his base. Worst case scenario, the church gets killed, but by then you should have full map control and a second Churchill on the way, or god forbid, an AVRE.

I dunno why people don't use this tactic more often. If there are good ways to counter them, do tell. In my experience, it doesn't really matter how good or how bad your early game went, once the churchill rushes in your base, there really isn't much you can do.

IMO, the StuG should be the perfect counter to a Churchill. In a straight fight, there should be no way a Churchill can beat a StuG, one being a fuel-free infantry tank, the other a T3 tank destroyer. Yet sometimes they do. And then again, any self respecting player won't give the StuG the chance of an open fight, just make it chase your Churchill in his own base. Sounds fucking ridiculous, but surprisingly effective. IMO, the Churchill itself is alright, the problem lies in the StuG's incompetence.

[Tseng_Fox]

All I can think of doing is camo'd paks to hold them back while sacrificed grens go up and shreck it. But even then its really hard. I tend to go defenseive alot so I cover my base with a Flak 88.

If the stug had decent frontal armour it could hold off the churchill long enough for the pak to take care of it.

[Wolfhere]

Mines work, but I have been caught off guard more than once by the Churchill rush when playing Wehr. PE has the wonderful Marder for dealing with it, but the only thing I have found that reliably deals with it, comes long after the Churchill comes out. If you have enough warning, putting mines in the Chuchill’s path will slow it enough to be dealt with by shrecks and other AT weapons.

I know the game isn’t realistic, it’s all about flavor and balance, but the Stug IV couldn’t penetrate a Churchill’s front armor, even at point blank range. The Churchill actually had more armor than the Tiger I. Some models had 150mm up front, more than the 75mm gun of the Stug could reliably penetrate, even up close.

[DrunkenBrawler]

A single PaK + gren shreck squad should be enough, if he tries to run down the grens he'll face rear or side armor to your PaK, which will give very high penetration. He'll start taking damage, and if he doesn't back it away at that point, chance is he'll probably lose it, and it's pretty stupid to lose 600 manpower like that.

If he on the other hand tries to flank your PaK, you grens will get rear or side hits on the tank.

[bottenbreker]

i agree with drunkenbrawler. 1 shreksquad + pak can deal with about any tank in the game. yes, shreks got nerfed. but they're still pretty good if used to defend something (like a pak).

[Reverie]

Tank shock for the schreck. Pak? same way you deal with a StuG, only easier. Stay behind some buildings so he'll never get a shot off, meanwhile you're pounding his base. One trick is to garrison the schrecks at HQ, but he can still hide behind some building so you can't do shit.

Oh and btw Wolfhere, what's that reliable but late counter you mentioned?

[shiner980]

I think he'd be referring to a Panther tank up there.

In any case, the best thing you can do is Pak 38 + Grenadiers w/ schrek (substitute with Stormtroopers when possible, they're better at the ambush role) and a mine if you see it coming.

[Texture]

A single PaK + gren shreck squad should be enough, if he tries to run down the grens he'll face rear or side armor to your PaK, which will give very high penetration. He'll start taking damage, and if he doesn't back it away at that point, chance is he'll probably lose it, and it's pretty stupid to lose 600 manpower like that.

If he on the other hand tries to flank your PaK, you grens will get rear or side hits on the tank.

Pretty much the only answer you need.

If he's dumb enough to drive behind your base, garrison a shrek squad in there, and another on the ground behind his rear armor and watch him die. It's also not like you can't move your PAK to the end of you base so that it can fire to either side of it... I'd especially do this in a way where it guarantees that the Churchill can't run when it's getting low on health from the shreks.

If you went Stugs well.... sorry. That might have been a poor strategic decision.

The Churchill 'base rapes' fucking slow as all hell. I'm not really sweating bullets about it taking down my HQ.

[D'yer Mak'er]

Churchill's cannot base rape anything. The only thing that can is an AVRE, and if you don't have a counter for it by that time, then you've already lost long ago.

What does tankshock matter if he's "baseraping" you? Hit the retreat button: no more suppression.

1 shreck squad and a pak is all you need. He can't run away from you if he was foolish enough to drive it in your base.

[Reverie]

You're not hearing me. You don't have to be some twitch champion to micro a Churchill behind buildings to avoid getting shot by Paks or garrisoned schrecks. If he's dumb enough to drag the Pak up to chase you, just circle strafe it. This is especially easy on maps with smaller base areas.

Even if the initial Churchill couldn't baserape quickly, he's draining all your resources to deal with a 600mp fuel-less tank. All the while he 's free to take the entire map, tech to tanks, or get arty to commence a full baserape. And that real killer AVRE is just barely 2 CPs away.

And tell me what's this counter for AVRE that I should be getting D'yer? T4?

I think folks underestimate the armor on Churchills. You're not going to Pak+Schreck a Churchill like you do a Croc, cause even Paks shells bounce off all the time, let alone schrecks that barely scratch its paintjob. With all its arsenal, Churchills are simply excellent for baserushes, much better than the measly demo rush, schreck rush, or whatever rushes that's being used these days.

[Monkeypoop]

pak + 1 shrek gren + any volks you have leftover will easily defeat a churchill.

he pays 600mp for the tank, the only dedicated AT you pay for is 75 muni shrek and 310 mp PAK, so you come out on top in terms of MP.

Faust is really good now, especially shot against churchills rear armor because it almost always hits and penetrates. Just make sure you have enough munitions points, and don't waste too many munitions early game. If anything, churchills are a relief compared to the headache that is known as commandos