Thanks to lazychicken for a schooling

[Hopalong]

Despite having a solid build (scout AC mix), I tried something different and I got my tail handed to me for it. I thought that since we were 1v1 on a 4p map (Kharam) that I had a little breathing room so I built two refineries early to speed up my RU income. I had one AC and 3 EMP scouts when he came knocking on my door. Not pretty.

It also didn't help that I had parked my carrier right next to his base without knowing it right away.

So, the two very important lessons that I learned are

1: Look before you move a carrier. It could help you a lot.
2: Early refineries don't mean squat if you die.

Thanks for the game lazy. I look forward to another.

[ZetaZhan]

A) Refinerys should only be built after u have both ur carrier/ mothership at full force with as many resources they can handle.. OR .. in big maps if you plan on moving your carrier to the middle of the map... build 1 refinery to get control of another resource patch.. BUT NEVER should they be built in a 1v1 game.. ur get ur ass handed to u

B) contrary to popular belief.. the Vaygr AC/EMP rush isnt the only rush.. nor is it a good counter rush to a AC/EMP rush ehhe

Your best bet is making gun platforms.. and placing them a little bit away from each other... so they dont all get knocked out at once if they emp u... U can effectivly take out a larger rushing force with nearly a quarter of the cost.. 6 AC= 3k.. where as Platforms only cost 300 each.. u could have 10 of them for that cost :P where as also.. 4 would kill off 6 ACs

[LazyChiken]

bawk hopalong!

Was a nice game, and it would be great to play you again.

Now, to the point. If you make too many collectors (or rafineries, probes, whatever) you are not doing MILITARY units. And, therefore, after few minutes you can have decent economy, but my units are already far superior for you to catch up (if my killing time is faster than your build time, usually its around 6 ac's vs 2 ac's point). On small / medium map situations, a guy who will win is a guy who will make just enough collectors to maintain constant production, and is not afraid to attack early to use his advantage.

In points.

1. Early rafinery are usefull for: rafinery rush (hehe), on huge (and I mean really huge!) maps, for building one and sending it to your enemy ru patch as general distraction / piss him off type of unit (focus fire on collectors). Otherwise, they will loose you a game, being too big cost too early.

2. Early probe / scout is a must, if enemy have no fixed position (like on shield). Still, sooner or later you will have to scout a little, recon range of ac's etc. are simply too small for you to have time to give orders to your unit after they would finally see enemy.

3. I FULLY disagree that platforms (or, pure platforms) are way to defend vs vaygr strike craft rush. Its rather a thing that will make you loose gamess if you will meet a good swarmer. Why? Only because he will be able to focus his firepower in a place he chooses. And you cannot have your platforms everywhere.

4. I disagree with that carrier thing though. Of course, you need to see what your enemy is up to, but if you are not making frost's rush, you really do need that second resource patch ASAP. So, I would still move my carrier to resource pocket, but, I would use it as rally point for all my troops.

[Hopalong]

Something else that I've been reconsidering is the fact that I sent my carrier to another patch right away. In hindsight of my game with lazy, I think that this may not be a wise course of action on a small map, especially with the Vaygr. While your carrier is in-between resource patches, your RU flow is decreased by a lack of drop-off points. If you build refineries early enough to compensate for this decreased flow, you hurt your early fighter production and leave yourself vulnerable to a rush.

Don't get me wrong, expansion is still key to your eventual victory. Just don't espand too early or you'll spread yourself thin.

I'd like to add that I agree with lazy on platforms to an extent. I think that platforms are plenty useful after you already have an attacking force, but if you start out building them you limit your options too much. Platforms also become much more useful if they used properly. On many occasions, I have seen an opponent building a wall of platforms in front of their resource op. This is silly because I can go around them, kill the resource op, and ignore the platforms. If you are defending a resource op, put the platforms in the patch so that any attackers must either destroy them first or take damage while ignoring them.

[Alpha_1]

No, you never put platforms IN the resource patch, the clearance between rocks is so small you may end up hurting your resourcing. What you do is lay the plats AROUND the patch for multidirectional coverage.

You want to cover all sides but not interfere with resource collection, if you do place plats inbetween the rocks you collect from you will end up disrupting the worker flow to and from those resources.

Also if you do not send your carrier to the expansion imeadietly, you are going to hurt your long game. If you play as hig you set the MS as close as possible to the start spot then about face, if you are vay you move the MS directly over the start spot to speed res collection.

Also remember to only have 1 more worker than you have latch points or you are wasting worker time waiting for clearance to collect.

[Hopalong]

Right. Not "in" the resource patch as in inbetween the rocks, but "in" the patch as in not forming a barrier between you and your opponent. Not only would you impede collection, you would limit your platforms fields of fire. My bad. (See what happens when I post before 9AM?) B-)

I still agree with you that you need to expand as quickly as possible. However, my point was that if you expand too quickly while going against a good rusher the rusher will trounce you because they sacrifice a little income for more combat units. You need to find a balance between economic production and military production and that balance depends on your opponent and the map.

[Chopper415]

Lazy, I'm not sure I agree with some of your points there. I believe that building an early combination of MR's and platforms defenses is the perfect start for a game.

The platforms have almost always, in my (by now considerable) experience online, been able to ward off any and all early game fighter rushes, and when they haven't it's usually because I had done something stupid and learned from my mistake.

I am a late-game player (which is, believe it or not, different from a BC rusher) and I think that having 2 MR's and a lot of resourcers right at the beginning means that you pull ahead of your opponent in the mid game, even more so if he wastes his early RU's on a futile SC rush.

This is not theory, it's the way I play the beginning of almost every game, and it has worked perfectly well for me so far.

[DrunkPSA]

Plats are worthless vs an Assault/emp rushed. Unless you get like 6 plats or more, they will get torn up by emp. Emp just completely pwns plats. And if your opponent throws bombers into the mix, you are now completely screwed.

I'd liked to play you Lazy.

-Drunk|PSA

[Timeless]

On moving your carrier to a patch right away:

I always make a scout as my first unit if playing point or 1on1. The scout is then waypointed to likely enemy occupations and within a few seconds I know which way to send my carrier. I do this everytime and lose very, very few 1on1s. Before I started doing this, however, I often ended up moving my carrier to a less than ideal location--I would rather be hitting the enemy's resource patch while mine is safe at another location rather than be battling over the same patch and risk losing even a single worker.

And making refineries early is something for the player in the back--the protected player, who will boom and tech and support the two point guys. Or, as mentioned above, if you want to take two positions on point....but only once you are sure of complete early game domination.

Timeless_OMO

[ZetaZhan]

Drunken.. and all.. effecitve placements of platfomrs means that you can only take out 1 at a time... .. now lets c hear a minute... 6ac(500 each).. 6scouts (350 each? I think?)= 5100... EMP research = (450 fighter module + 500 research module + 1000 emp research) 1950 + 5100 = 7050 ....

Platform module = 500 .. Gun platform = 300 (7050/300) = Ruffly 23 platforms... Now.. tell me... u think 23 platforms couldnt hold off a measily 12 fighters?

Lazy... i know all counters to all rushes.. i know what to look for.. i scout early and offent.. if i c a research module/ 2 fighter modules.. im pumpin out platforms :P... u go corvett? I ussualy go corvettes as well.. .. out pop the pulsars :P

I r the Ultimate Turtler :P

Dont get me wrong... platforms arent the only way to go.. ussually i build up fast.. the plats are ussualy not touched/built again after a intial 12 or so.. because after that im teching to dreadys to own ur ass hehe :P

and Flak frigs / torp frigs to help crush ur measly Vaygr Swarm

Beware the Swarm.. MUAHA i swat the swarm as if its a fly on my hand

[Murph]

A) Refinerys should only be built after u have both ur carrier/ mothership at full force with as many resources they can handle.. OR .. in big maps if you plan on moving your carrier to the middle of the map... build 1 refinery to get control of another resource patch.. BUT NEVER should they be built in a 1v1 game.. ur get ur ass handed to u

I disagree. In almost all of my games, I build at least 1 refinery while I move my carrier to a side ru patch and the ms closer to the enemy. This allows me to reinforce my fleet faster from the mothership.

[DrunkPSA]

Zeta care to change your mind about plats now?

LOL

:thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

[ZetaZhan]

sigh u wanna rub it in?

Besides..it fully stoped ur idea of rushing me :P .. thier good.. but to a point.. thats it... hehe mabey 5mins.. no more hehe..

[DrunkPSA]

its all love baby.

[Chopper415]

Drunk, I agree that EMP will own a few platforms. However, I am talking about using 20 platforms of mixed type set in a dispersed radial shield in front of your base. I guarantee you, no EMP attack can nullify that. And I know it's true because I've seen people try it. Just the memory threatens to make me giggle like a little girl