yeah, the plats thing is a massive change and would need huge testing. I think it would be imba as you'd have 2 bright lances setting up commanders for an FP or avatar fall.
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#101
yeah, the plats thing is a massive change and would need huge testing. I think it would be imba as you'd have 2 bright lances setting up commanders for an FP or avatar fall.
You do realize this?
The entire point of the plats suggestion is that it's a compromise. It's harder to argue for a straight nerf. It's not a massive change nor does it need huge testing, because it can be done right now, in SS 1.0.+10 vehicle bonus to spend it any way they wish. Get 6 plats (if they feel like it) and still have +4 left over.
But they get pop freed up via the Avatar no longer costing 5 cap, Mlai. Paired with the other benefits, any vehicle bonus is damn hard to justify, especially given his stats.
I am think of lowering the hardcap of the plats- so even if they cost 0 pop ,to be hardcapped at 2 shuriken and 1 blance won't be much of an issue.
That which does not kill us, makes us stranger.
My ideas are (some new ones, I don't necessarily say that they're awesome):
*Avatar pop cost reduced to 3 (it has to cost pop for fluff reason)
*Avatar hp regen +1 (to compensate for the lack of one 3 pop unit when he's out)
*Avatar doesn't give veh pop anymore
*Presence of the Avatar speeds up AP production time by the current amount
*Presence of the Avatar doesn't speed up Support Portal production time
*Presence of the Avatar speeds up Webway production speed by 80% (or just 50%)
*Maybe Guardians could get a defense or hp bonus near the Avatar (+30% range damage reduction or +20% hp- I don't have SS, but in DC they're quite fragile late game, so making them a bit better at tanking would make sense, in my opinion).
The basic idea is to make the Avatar less imba, reduce the effectivenes of vehicle spam, but make plats more viable late game. As far as I know, they are rarely used because of the long build time.
Please tell me what you think about these.
GFWL gamertag/ LoL name: ReadInPeace
Just call me Readin'
Interesting theory, D-Coy. One worth looking into.
And not a bad idea, Nuketrooper.
#107
When the Avatar is out the glowy effect appears on the Support Portal even though the Avatar doesn't affect it. The effect also appears on plasma generators and thermoplasma generators.*Presence of the Avatar doesn't speed up Support Portal production time
-It's not the fall that kills you, it's the sudden stop at the end (Douglas Adams)-
-Make something idiot proof and nature will create a better idiot.-
-Me fail English? That's unpossible!-
I had doubts about whether he does affect it or it's only a graphical effect. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
Cheers
#109
I suggest removing the glowy effects for buildings he doesn't affect , to avoid confusion.
That is an interesting idea D-Coy, suggesting that the Avatar increases webway production time. That way it would allow you to rebuild the plats fast if they get destroyed. And because they die so quickly, it would be useful.
I think guardians need to be balanced separately though, but I agree that they get quite weak late game, especially when they are taking up pop that you could spend on Warp Spiders.
-------------------------------------------
About the Avatar and the plat pop zeroing:
The changes I suggested . . .
*Remove the infantry bonus and have him cost zero pop. That way he doesn't get stuck in production queue even though he only costs 1 pop.
Difference: The Avatar now costs zero instead of one. This is a small buff.
*Remove the plus 10 vehicle bonus. Substitute it with with a bonus that only allows platforms to be built.
Difference: The only vehicles that can be built above the vehicle cap are platforms, which although very useful are also very fragile and easily killed. This is a nerf.
The result: The Avatar no longer gets stuck in the production queue. Eldar no longer has a heavy vehicle advantage late game. There is more incentive to use platforms.
Regardless of how you look at it, what I am suggesting is most definitely a nerf. Yes, having the plats cost zero is good. But it is better to have +10 pop which you can spend on anything.
About the zero pop plat bonus:
There are two options for this. The first is to simply have it only apply when the Avatar is out. This is the simplest solution, and the most like what it is currently. However I think the other option is probably better.
The second option is to have a completely separate upgrade in the Soul Shrine that only becomes available once Annihilate the Enemy is researched. This research option would be expensive, let us say 400req 400power.
The advantages to having a separate research are that the Avatar loses the bonus entirely, but there is still an incentive for platforms to be used late game. With the bonus completely removed from the Avatar, there is no doubt that he has been nerfed.
Yes, this does mean that it would be possible to have the plat bonus when the Avatar is not out in the field. But I would be perfectly happy with that for a number of reasons.
First, because the cost to research the ability costs as much as a relic unit, making it an expensive choice to go for. Secondly, because although platforms are very useful they are also very weak and easily destroyed. If the platforms are attacked first they will go down very quickly. And thirdly, it is still going to be a nerf when compared to the plus ten bonus that is there now.
I know some of you think that the Eldar don't need to have something like this, but I disagree. After the Two fire prisms take up half their vehicle cap, there is only 10 left for other vehicles. And this ten is much better spent on Falcons to keep the Eldar mobile and Wraithlords to defend against enemy walkers. Yes the platforms are good, but they are support platforms. They can not fight alone, and they die extremely quickly. If you spent six vehicle cap on them you would have only enough cap left over for a single Wraithlord. Late game, one Wraithlord and two Fire Prisms isn't going to beat a massed vehicle army, even with the help of support platforms.
Fuck yeah they are. 1 Plat + 2 FPs >>>>> enemy vehicle pop.Late game, one Wraithlord and two Fire Prisms isn't going to beat a massed vehicle army, even with the help of support platforms.
Not if you attack the plats first. Assault Marines can jump on top of them and melta bomb and finish them in a few seconds. Or you can snipe them from afar with Leman Russ and arty. The plats have to be stationary to do any good, so that makes them sitting ducks. There are lots of ways to kill them.
And if you want to match vehicle pop for vehicle pop, two Fire Prisms and a two plats wont beat two Hammerheads and two Skyrays.
Last edited by Sound_Bug; 28th Apr 08 at 12:59 AM.
#113
What a ludicrous thing to say! An eldar vehicle army won't beat a SM vehicle army as they will use ASM's.
Right. So the eldar is literally just using vehicles then? :\
A lance only has to get one shot in for a heap of damage to be caused.
That's exactly what I thought. My ideal Eldar army would be: an Avatar leading, surrounded by guardians who take the damage, while the plats FPs and aspects nuke the troops from behind.That way it would allow you to rebuild the plats fast if they get destroyed. And because they die so quickly, it would be useful.
Glad you liked the idea as much as I did.
Cheers
I was just comparing vehicle pop to vehicle pop. Fire prisms are good, but when you compare their dps to the other tier 4 tanks they are weaker. They make up for it in other areas of course, but the tier 4 tanks end up being equal. Assuming that the enemy has two tanks to take on your fire prisms, that means both sides have 10 pop to spend on vehicles.Right. So the eldar is literally just using vehicles then? :\
With that ten pop, Wraithlords will lose to most other walkers one on one, so you a lot of them. But you also need to have at least a couple Falcons to keep the Eldar mobile. This leaves nothing for platforms. And even if you do buy 1 or 2, they are easily destroyed if targetted first. If a platform is giving you grief, then jump troops can take care of it quickfast.
#116
Actually most jump troops wont because they have sucky dps to vehicle armour unless you want to heavily reinforce the unit, in which case you're spending more resources killing the platform than it's worth.If a platform is giving you grief, then jump troops can take care of it quickfast.
Chriss is that IG hater he wanted them to nerf everything about igs
LOL who's gonna spend 400/400 for a research to use plats?
And if it's any cheaper, suddenly it's a free buff for Eldar. Like they need it.
Keep it on the Avatar. At least then it won't be a free buff, but will still get used in non-QS games.
#118
Given that wraiths get a high powered AV solution without losing any melee power, I just don't see the need for free plats. Plats are currently really good!
Yes, why exactly is the Eldar's walker weapon add-on so damn good, but everybody else's is shit?
Because Eldar is broken.
And we need to pray that harlequin resource bug also happened to FOF ability....
Seriously, if you really want plats to become interesting button to click by eldar players. You will need to reevaluate many of eldar damage tables first.
The reason is simple, those plats represent a unit skill at each of their shot.
Last edited by fs_xyz; 28th Apr 08 at 10:07 AM.
LOL who's gonna spend 400/400 for a research to use plats?
And if it's any cheaper, suddenly it's a free buff for Eldar. Like they need it.
If 400/400 is too much, surely there must be a price below that where it acceptable?
It's not like if it was 399/399 then it would suddenly become imba. There must be some acceptable price.
Personally, I think that the research is a good idea. It takes away the bonus completely from the Avatar, which is quite a heavy nerf to the Avatar. Now you have to pay extra just for the bonus. And then the bonus itself has been nerfed from being plus 10 any vehicle to platforms only. It is most definitely a nerf, but it still allows the Eldar to field support platforms late game if they really want to.
I think that the people that are supporting the 0 pop cost for supports are forgetting one thing
Currently there is no reason to use supports because all of other Eldar's units do so incredibly high damage and other reasons. Basically no one uses them because the rest of Eldar is so borked that there is no reason to
I would garuntee you, that if the rest of Eldar would be fixed (should it ever happen) people would start using the support platforms since the rest of Eldar units are not going to be insta gibs
People cannot see things in a vacuum, its not just Avatar that is causing Eldar to be imba, Eldar are imbalanced from front to bottom, back to front, however you say it. The Eldar race is the definition of imbalanced, every SINGLE unit apart from supports are imbalanced. Every single one of Eldar units have higher then average HP/Damage/Cost Effectiveness/Speed/Scaling (apart from Guardians) then all the race counterparts ALONG with having one of the strongest economies and mobility.
Its gotten so bad to the point where you don't even need to use your brain to use the race effectively (which is the whole point of the race, eldars and DE are supposed to be tactical). Now its all falcon + fragon, DR spam early, insta gibbing 40 range rangers, banshee T1-T3 scaling melee units that can almost outmelee any other CC units in the stage of the game with upgrades, guardians uber for cost effectiveness, seer council with commander armor squad that takes further reduced damage from ranged units (I mean seriously wtf, those things are as tanky as 3 PSMS).
No if you just do the Avatar pop cap nerf it won't make lances used, and it probably won't encourage their use. Yes if you make the pop cap 0 it would encourage the use, but thats because its free on pop cap<- this is NOT the way to balance games. Encouraging strategy by making things free does not promote strategy, it kills it, its just an easy fix without any second thought that would create more balance issues in the future. If you look at lances, there is nothing wrong with them and no reason why they should 0 pop cap.
You fix the rest of Eldars problems, and people will start using supports since all of Eldars other units are not going to be borked. If you wan't to encourage the use of a unit because it isn't being used, you have to have a look at why no one is using the unit and have a look at the problem there and not just "give it away". People are not using supports because they are too expensive on pop cap (which would be the only reason to reduce their pop cost), people are not using lances because Eldar are having the highest HP tanks that have above average firepower and mobility with jumps to boot. Fix that problem and THEN people will start using lances
Holy mother of Gatsby - you bumped this thread for that load of tripe?
You've clearly put a lot of time and effort into it but seriously Panda, are you having a laugh?
No im incredibly bored after getting raped by stupid borked 10 gazillion vehicle inf spam from the all lovable tree hugging high pitched voice anorexic race
panda, why on earth do you ressourect this thread? i mean seriously, eldar is broken since 5 years now. and every new version /expansion they get their share of imba! threads - and there has NEVER been any change at all. also, you "analysis" is.... well, lets just say..."this has been covered a LOOONG time ago".
Firstly, I just wanted to put in my argument about the support platforms, that you won't have to worry about (if and ever Avatar gets the pop nerf) platforms not being used if you fix the rest of eldar
Platforms is the only balanced unit they have, fix the rest of their broken units and their platforms will be used without any changed
Also if wethe threads for long enough, maybe relic will finally do something about it
I think it's adequate to reduce its pop cost to 1 and eliminate all pop bonuses (remove the ridiculous support cap bonus too). Really hate deleting excess squads to make room for the Avatar, then bring all of them back later on.
Originally Posted by chelovek_veliki
1. why do you think plats are balanced?Platforms is the only balanced unit they have, fix the rest of their broken units and their platforms will be used without any changed
2. why do you think eldar players dont use them?
I already answered 2, re read my posts
As for 1, they are perfectly balanced because they are weak expendable units that have the ability to dramatically increase the damage to a target. On a race like eldar, they have low enough HP not to be abusable (but not so low they are useless) and the fact that they shoot every 3 seconds makes them more then balanced enough
#130
Panda, the BL plat gives +75% damage and is in no way, shape or form balanced it is rediculously, horrifically, mind-bendingly imbalanced.
The reason there not used much is because the people using the eldar race are completely stupid and can't see why they should be built even though they make your entire army a hard counter to everything.
It's rediculous !
The_$h0gun - Exactly, because the beard = the law.
Zomg
Dude thats precisely what Im saying (are people having issues reading or something?)
I am saying that plats are most likely the only balanced unit that eldars have and that people do not use plats is because every other Eldar unit is imbalanced so there is no reason to use them
you wrote:
painless said:Platforms is the only balanced unit they have, fix the rest of their broken units and their platforms will be used without any changed
you answered:Panda, the BL plat gives +75% damage and is in no way, shape or form balanced it is rediculously, horrifically, mind-bendingly imbalanced.
which is COMPLETELY BULLSHIT. a unit that gives +75% damage buff CANT be balanced, especiall when it hits the field in tier 3. even if the other eldar units from tier 0-4 were balanced, a unit that gave +75 dmg buff would be imbalanced.I am saying that plats are most likely the only balanced unit that eldars have and that people do not use plats is because every other Eldar unit is imbalanced so there is no reason to use them
Not if it can only target single units (its not like marker light, it doesn't effect whole squads, only the unit you are attacking)
Seeing as Eldar don't have the best AV options until WS and Prism (apart from imba fragons which should be nerfed down to monkeys), it would be used on tanks most of the times anyway
If Eldar units didn't scale so well with borked damage then it wouldn't be an issue (this is half the problem). You think giving them 0 pop with avatar is more balanced then actually fixing the rest of the race? Mind you it does currently take up pop, and amplyfing damage is its only use, and it has very low HP so it dies easily (and when it does die it won't shoot again to increase damage taken). There are not a hard counter for everything unless you won't to kill your vehicle cap
I also had no idea painless was being sarcastic
Last edited by PandaMine; 16th Nov 08 at 3:58 PM.
It's not like Eldar have the most durable tank and best AV infantry to back up brightlances in T4...
Pandamine your posts are f*cking terrible, think before you speak. Just because you have Dawn of Skirmish and you can beat the AI doesn't mean your arguments are infallible.
i like the idea, would make the eldar more what they should be, tactically powerfull rather then (as) numerically superior
even if not attachable they can be really effective, put a couple along with your DRs they really become an AI powerhouse lategame (despite their relative lackluster anti heavy infantry damage)
Man WTF?It's not like Eldar have the most durable tank and best AV infantry to back up brightlances in T4...
Pandamine your posts are f*cking terrible, think before you speak. Just because you have Dawn of Skirmish and you can beat the AI doesn't mean your arguments are infallible.
I have been saying that Eldar have absurdly high HP for their tanks.
You have bloody trouble reading or something?People cannot see things in a vacuum, its not just Avatar that is causing Eldar to be imba, Eldar are imbalanced from front to bottom, back to front, however you say it. The Eldar race is the definition of imbalanced, every SINGLE unit apart from supports are imbalanced. Every single one of Eldar units have higher then average HP/Damage/Cost Effectiveness/Speed/Scaling (apart from Guardians) then all the race counterparts ALONG with having one of the strongest economies and mobility.
Yes Brightlances are powerful, they are however incredibly weak (iirc they die to like one shot from broadsides) and their damage isn't very respectable against vehicles. The only reason why Eldar currently rape vehicles so bad is because of one unit and one unit only FRAGONS (up until you get prisms anyways). In fact that is the reason why they were introduced in WA. Yes you have brightlance on Wraiths, its however on a walker that suffers FotM (it is however the most useful walker upgrade, unlike the pathetic dreadnought one)
Can you please not quote me out of "thin air", I never even said that
You said Eldar didn't have very good AV options until Prisms and WS (wtf?) then you editted fragons in. The fact that the brightlance can even add 75% damage is retarded, yes it's only to 1 target, but it's basically non-stop, that ridiculous whether it has low hp or not.
Yes I admit I forgot about fragons (was writing on the top of my head and forgot to mention them). But that point about Eldar tanks having low HP i never said
The ridiculousness make up for that fact that the things have jack shit HP (compounded with vehicle low armor), the fact that they also have to keep on shooting (marker lights for example last until its dispelled, even if the pathfinders die), the fact that they also take up pop cap
I mean ffs, the things die to a single hit with broadsides
see, thats a completely retarded argument. why? the unit does negible dmg itself and has low HP - however it does buff other units dmg output on a single target by 75%. so, could you pls come up with a scenario where a BL is in front of an army to take the first hits? no eldar player is THAT retarded.I mean ffs, the things die to a single hit with broadsides
btw, you cant say "if FD werend imba, BL would not be imba". FD are there, and they are imba. point. and even if they did 25-30% less dmg, they would be imba again with BL.
So why the hell is everyone wanting to give them 0 pop with avatar
Any long ranged AV would kill the thing in less then a second, as I said a broadside kills the thing in one shot. Its not like marker lights where even if Pathfinders die afterwards mark target still exists.
Remember that they also take up veh cap, which could be used for another vehicle that would give more firepower
Its not like the things are cuda's and they can fly over mountains
BL plats work wonders on ubers and vehicles, while fragile they do have decent range. A squad of path finders costs about the same as a BL, but they are less durable and marker light has a cooldown (although it is much too short for what it does for Tau IMO).
path finders are in now way less durable then plats, especially considering the casting range of markerlight
They have infantry armor and there's only 2 of them to start (which cost about the same as 1 BL), I'm not sure but BL's have pretty good range more than path finders. Also BL's special works on buildings as well.
Im not talking about the pathfinders shooting range, im talking about marker light (which apart from their site radius is their only real use).
After checking the wiki, it seams both PF and Brightlance have a range of 35 for attack/markerlight. Difference is (and the major one) is that PF can just cast markerlight and run back, even if he dies the targeted units are still marked
On the other hand, plats actually need to stay in combat (i.e. continue shooting) for the damage increase to apply, and seeing how they have low vehicle armor and crappy HP I wouldn't imagine it being uncommon that the plats would die.
If plats functioned like rangers, then yes they would be imba but they don't
have you ever actually seen them used? or have u used them yourself? because it really looks like you havent. sure, if you use BL alone, without proper support, yes, they die fast. but thats not the point of BL. the point of them is to increase your other units dmg. typically you will jump in your tanks and move in your infantry army and THEN start shooting at important units with the BL. gg no re.
No shit shirlock
BL is not going to be of much use if you send it after you're army has already killed half their army. BL are designed to be used against tanks and walkers (i.e. powerful single units), against squads they are kind of pointless since they can only target a single unit. Walkers especially in T2/T3 are one of the first units to walk in, along with melee elitists.
I have seem them used, yes they are efficient and good. Maybe the reason why they are so efficient and good is because the rest of the Eldar army are too efficient and too good? You have to look at the things in perspective. If BT's only increased damage by 10% using your logic it would still be imbalanced because the Eldar army would still be raping the other army because they would still be doing a shitload of damage regardless of the BL
You are looking at things in a vacuum, stop doing it.
dont accuse me of your own mistake newb! You cant say "BL would be fine of the rest of eldar was fine" - why?
1. it simply ISNT the case that the other eldar units are fine.
2. how on earth would you balance that? even if all eldar units from tier 0-3 were perfectly balanced, a +75% dmg buff would be still insanely imba, no matter how you look at it. and you just cant balance eldar tier 0-3 around a single dmg buff platform... because this would cripple tier 0-3.
stop being a smartass and get some real points up !
Or just stop!
The Bright plat gets used all the time by competent players.
It's massively different from the PF markerlight in every way.
It's fragile because it's awesome. What's the problem?
It is not expensive on vehicle cap.
If you want to rant about Eldar balance make your own thread.
Or not.
#149
Never a good reason to bump a thread. By the way, if you and MoschBoy could somehow resolve your lover's spat outside our forums or at the very least use private messages so that the rest of us don't have to read it that'd be really swell.No im incredibly bored after getting raped by stupid borked 10 gazillion vehicle inf spam from the all lovable tree hugging high pitched voice anorexic race
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