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#51
Some examples of Tau weakness' in later tiers and what is needed to fill the gaps would be welcome, because personally I feel that Tau tier 3/4 is better than ever now, thanks to a lot of other tier 3 infantry getting increases in cost etc.
Even when Tau players could build the Knarloc in tier 3, in most cases they didn't. Now, was that because it sucked or because Tau were/are so winsauce that they didn't even need it? I think evidence points to the later.
Chriss is that IG hater he wanted them to nerf everything about igs
Tau rape everything in late tier. They take full advantage of the RTS game's "critical mass ranged army" factor.
Basically, once you reach a critical mass of elite ranged units, you don't need melee cover.
#53
Yes all abilities / weapons filter by armour type. So the EMP won't work on the Squiggoth.It's possible that the ability just checks for armor type, in which case it wouldn't work on the squiggoth.
-It's not the fall that kills you, it's the sudden stop at the end (Douglas Adams)-
-Make something idiot proof and nature will create a better idiot.-
-Me fail English? That's unpossible!-
Ahhh... thats a very good point. Leaving apart how broke the Tau race was in DC1.1. The fact that people did not build him in tier 3 probes how crappy he was/is. Imagine the Baneblade being tier3. All IG players would build it as soon as possible without hesitation, and it is not like IG tier 3 is weak or anything.Even when Tau players could build the Knarloc in tier 3, in most cases they didn't. Now, was that because it sucked or because Tau were/are so winsauce that they didn't even need it?
Thats another good point, and would be true if by tier 3/4 were not so many jump/teleport/disrupt/invulnerability abilities, preventing tau from doing so.Tau rape everything in late tier. They take full advantage of the RTS game's "critical mass ranged army" factor.
Basically, once you reach a critical mass of elite ranged units, you don't need melee cover.
Anyway, I rather like this thread wouldn't become a "Tau late game balance issues". But maybe it is inevitable.
It is inevitable -you can't properly ballance the last unit to be deployed into battle if you do not take into consideration the other factors - such as t1/2/3/4 army supporting that unit.
What are those jump/teleport/disrupt/invulnerability that can't be dealt with? You have snare traps to slow down invulnerable infantry IF you need to do so and stealth suits to stun and dispose of any artillery piece that threatens you.
Tau wasn't getting knarlock in t3 back in the times when it could simply because it didn't need it to win. It doesn't need it that much now either.
For example have you seen IG winning t4 without a single deployment of a baneblade? Probably yes- but extremely rare %-wise
Last edited by The_nuketrooper; 17th Apr 08 at 9:13 AM.
That which does not kill us, makes us stranger.
Alright, having read more and thought more on it (also, played a ton of games as Tau...), I have to change my previous stance. Gnarloc/Krootox do not need changed. The rest of the Tau army more than makes up for them.
Most of the changes regarding HP regen, turnspeed etc are not going to really change the knarloc much in terms of his overall usefulness, these are not big changes and there balanced impact with be pretty minimal IMO.
What they will do is make him a bit more fun, and a bit less frustrating for the player controlling him
Mlai you make a good point about the squiggy getting better FOTM, it's another unit thats cumbersome an akward, even more than the knarloc, although it's range attacks, repairabilty and troop transport abilty do off-sett this somewhat, but a better FOTM would help compensate for the extra time it takes the squig to get properly stuck in, and would not really make a big balance impact either.
But for anyone using the squig would be a welcome change and would definately take some of the frustration experianced at the time he takes to get stuck into battle away
Baro is obviously overexagerating the issue by a lot. Tau do not suffer whatsoever because of the knarloc.
However, there are certainly small changes in order: Gnerally pathing ones. A small speed increase (20%) and a faster turn rate would solve the problems nicely. Fixing the knarloc HP at 11000 and making metalurgy/ethereal not affect him would also be desirable so that mont'ka isnt stuck with a crappy relic unit.
I'm thinking Crisis suits and the "Wand of death" as Jaimas so suitably christens the HH, more than makes up for the Gnarloc going Mont'ka route.However, there are certainly small changes in order: Gnerally pathing ones. A small speed increase (20%) and a faster turn rate would solve the problems nicely. Fixing the knarloc HP at 11000 and making metalurgy/ethereal not affect him would also be desirable so that mont'ka isnt stuck with a crappy relic unit.
Or maybe keep things as they are, but put a research in the Mont'ka tree that speeds up the Gnarloc and its turning radius. The HP and the rest is really going too far IMO, especially if your doing it w/o a research.
Uh, not really... Why your relic unit should be gimped because of the HH is beyond me.
And for the last time, I've added no HP to the thing- just made him independant from a T3 research that only affects 1 path (and is called "improved metalurgy"... the knarloc is not freaking metal, seriously)
He does have armor on him though. And you -have- added HP. You just removed any need for a research to give him hp. He costs less (to get to full power, no research anymore) and starts with more hp. How is that not adding?
Because he ends up with the same ammount.
Also it stops him being the only relic unit in the game that is actually dependant on a research to reach maximum HP. (well actually the dias also does, but it has all kinds of its own problems)
Yeah but he's also the only relic unit of a race that gets to choose a strategy path.
Or actually thinking along those lines, would be like saying the BT is going unchanged if I remove the need for an AC/leader to summon him from. Yes, it doesn't change the effective HP of a unit, but it is a buff. In one hand (Chaos) I'm using the AC on the other a research (Tau).
Think it would make more sense to just move the metallurgy upgrade to the Mont'ka tree (as well as leaving it in the Kauyon one).
Mmm...Sorry, I haven't explained myself correctly with "tau late game is weak"<-remove that.
I think that the Kaunyon path is pretty much ok. And if you look at the changes, they will not severely affect it. Just as War-reborn says.
But Mont'ka... Mont'ka IS a weak late game.Sorry, but HH and flamers don't make up for your entire army being left in t2. Neither the Ethereal (him alleviates it, but don't change the fact that your army is still in t2).
Kamikaze Suits are stronger/expensiver HB drones, you send them into the fry to dish as many damage as possible until they die. They do great damage but are relatively frail, that balances out.
HH: They have the greatest dps of all t4 tanks, also their HP and armor is the worst of all t4 tanks, that balances out.
Ethereal: He provides a great bonus and abilities. Yet he has a pathetic combat ability and his death almost assure you will lose the game, that balances out.
So, as said, going Mont'ka have it's strong points with their corresponding backwards. In addition, your army will be left in t2 and you will get the 8000HP GK. Thats a crappy late game on my book.
Thats why I think the GK changes proposed are in order.
Maybe Im not overexagerating it so much after all. Inmortal you know that Mont'ka has some gaps, the GK being one of them.Originally posted by InmmortalChaos
Still, I hate the fact that going mont'ka makes me feel useless in the endgame of a FFA.
For example have you seen IG losing t4 with a single deployment of a baneblade? Probably yes- but extremely rare %-wiseFor example have you seen IG winning t4 without a single deployment of a baneblade? Probably yes- but extremely rare %-wise
Sorry, I had to write it.
#65
Care to explain how Tau late game is weak, with uber range fire warriors, broadsides, ethereal bonuses and spells and kroot hounds/krootox or crisis suits/hammerheads? And don't say "Because GK is crap".Yes, they do. Tau's late game is already weak somehow. And it is pretty much (in addition with other factors) because of the GK being crap.
Umm, yes he does. Have you been keeping up with the rest of the thread? He beats every other uber 1v1 and doesn't even need the metallurgy upgrade to do it most of the time. How does that not make him a relic basher?Because, as estated, he doesn't fill the role of relic basher.
As I said it needs to be looked in content with the rest of the Tau late game army and IMO he supports them very well. If you're worried about his HP make a clone and send that in first. Tau are definitely not lacking in late game options or strength.
White_Pointer
Ummmm, NO HE DOES NOT. I don't have my calcs now because Im not at home and the relic wiki isn't working at the moment (at least for me). But I assure you -and I will be back later with the numbers I calculated this afternoon- that the 8K incarnation of the GK gets beaten hard by the BT and especially by the Avy. And the 11K still gets beaten by the Avy. Leaving alone the problems mentioned about the GK pathing, move speed, turn speed and lack of splash attack.Umm, yes he does. Have you been keeping up with the rest of the thread? He beats every other uber 1v1 and doesn't even need the metallurgy upgrade to do it most of the time. How does that not make him a relic basher?
#67
Without the upgrade the Knarloc beats:But I assure you -and I will be back later with the numbers I calculated this afternoon- that the 8K incarnation of the GK gets beaten hard by the BT and especially by the Avy.
Landraider
Dais
Baneblade
Living Saint
Monolith
Squiggoth (yep, even beats the 11k HP squiggoth)
With the upgrade he obviously beats all of the above as well as the Bloodthirster.
The only relic unit he doesn't beat 1v1 is the Avatar - although he still could depending on the frequency of special attacks.
So he beats 5 out of 7 relic units even without his HP upgrade, and 6 out if 7 with the upgrade (sometimes 7 out of 7). I'm sorry but in my books, that constitutes making the Knarloc a relic basher. No other unit in the game with maybe the exception of the Avatar is better at beating relic units. I'm intrigued now...if you don't consider the Knarloc a relic basher, then what *do* you consider a relic basher?
White_Pointer
Last edited by White_Pointer; 17th Apr 08 at 4:52 PM.
Firstly: All melee ubers beat the Landraider, Dais, Baneblade and Monolith 1vs1 (except maybe the Living Saint, cant check it now), so that is not a particular strenght of the GK and should not be considered like that.
Secondly: Yes, the 8K version beats the LS and the Squig, and gets beaten by the Avy(by far) and the BT. So he is at the very middle of the table. Does this make him a uber basher? NO, without further explanation. Thats for the Mont'ka path.
Thirdly: Yes, the 11k incarnation beats also the BT and is paired whit the Avy. BUT, in difference with the Avy, he has a movespeed of 16 (Avy 20), his turn speed is lightyears behind and lacks any kind of splash attack, in consecuence his pathing is much worse, SO he can't reach effectively the other uber SO he can't effectively kill it, SO he is not a relic basher.
Are you even reading the posts in this thread? The buffs that were proposed were :
Increased speed , Increased turning speed,smaller footprint for better pathing,adition of AoE attack
@The nuketrooper: Ugh... Are you refering to me?Because I was the first proposing 3 of those changes on the OP and summarized Inmortal ones in post #40.
nothing relevant
Originally posted by MYSELF on post #1
Well, my proposed solution would be:
-Increase move/turn speed so he can actually reach things in cc.
-Give him an splash attack.
-Give him +3HP regen.Originally posted by MISELF in post #40
As said...
-Icrease Move Speed to 20.
-Drasticaly increase turn speed.
-HP standarized to 11000.
-HP regen up to +3/+4.
-Stomp fixed so it works as an actual splash attack.
Anyone disagree?
#36
And we all agree
I might be wrong, but can't the Gnarloc be built even if the Tau HQ is destroyed?
Knarloc is good, use against stuff thats its good at killing like Land raiders or dias. By the sound of it you want the Knarloc to kill all relic ubers, which won't happen. BTW Some relic unit has to be at the bottom of the list, even if it is the Knarloc and anyways the rest of the tau army makes up for the Knarlocs weakneses.
Tau T3 & T4? strong.
Not really;
mont'ka T3 can't stand up to any other full t3 in the game, its a quick tech to t4 and HH using CS to harris only the rest of the armies left in t2. In t4 the GK isn't needed due to his general suckyness, mark target + TC + HH takes on other ubers but really you'll have won/lost on what happened when your first HH drops out.
kauyon on the other hand is a pretty strong t3 & t3.5 if you survive in good shape till the ethereals out you've probably won, t4 sucks though due to pathing on kroot and the GK.
The changes on the GK suggested will just stop him sucking, yes he'll be better off than the squiggy but than again the squiggy should have been buffed since dow 1.0.
My vote
Speed -> 20 or charge
Faster turning
Regen -> 6
Smaller footprint
Some kind of AOE attack
Same HP both paths
That sounds good on paper but as i pointed out earlier, relics don't spend most of there time bashing other relics, so being good at it while nice doesn't constitute a huge advantage IMO.Originally Posted by White_Pointer
Some of the games most useful relics are downright poor at bashing other relics, dais, mono, LR etc
Even in terms of so called relic bashers the knarloc is hardly what i would call good, it's all well an good having good relic dps, but you need to actually apply that to a target, the reality of assaulting a enemy relic in a defended postion with a slow CC unit lumbering up to a enemy frontline to engage usually results in you taking far more dmg, even if you get to the target chomping on a LR while being blasted by every troops in sight is likely to leave you dead rather sooner than your target.
Thats why a unit like the Nightbringer is so good vs relics, because even though it's easily avoided, you need to avoid it for a rather inconvienantly long time, flying relics like the BT are far better vs ranged relics since you can get them to the loactions were you can best apply there strenghts, a slow lumbering log like the gnarloc is vunrable to taking large amounts of dmg in pursuit of units that have more range or mobilty or both
Killing Relics is just what he is best at and an area in which he beats other Relics. He is by no means bad at killing almost anything else.
For fuck's sake it is spelled Knarloc, not Gnarloc.
lol white pointer lrn2 read thread kk?
Ok lets see which races tau can get to T3 against:
Tau cant make T3 v cron
Tau cant make T3 v DE
Tau >> SOB no need to comment like with DE/cron
Tau >> eldar no need to comment
Then remember that tau T3 needs to most skill of all the races. Its rly bitching hard to still be using 3 hp PF that tau needs to function. Its hard to keep going back and building SS and slow reinforcing if you fighitng T3/4 vehicles. Crisis suits take ages to build. They cannot be spam chucked else they die and then enemy has ages to overrun your base.
FW need far more micro now as enemy melees are faster and their ranged troops PWNT FW in T3 cos FW do fuck all dmg for T3. Snares now so lol weak most troops run over them or shoot them off accidentally (PSM flamers)
Ok so I have 6 other races
Tau T3<<< IG T3 and factor in their T1 getting raped by IG you often have no advantage (often eco disadvantage due to upgrades for IG)
Tau T3> SM T3
Tau T3< Chaos T3. Long way dude. Oblivies pwnzors and Chaos plasma causes real detection issues for tau
Tau T3 v Ork T3 IDK. Tau one was way way behind in DC but no free sluggas will have altered this bit time. However as it stands I cannot get to T2 v a good ork as ork T1.5 pwns tau (tau T2 pwns ork its true but I cant get there v 1600-1700 orks because they know what they are doing)
So tau T3 is weak. Tau no longer fast techs which was a vital strength of their T3 montka in DC.
Now could I care? No. I have a plenty good T2 tyty. But fact remains that I have to go kayun these days all the times cos crisis dont hack it. And T4 in kayun is waste of time unless you have +150/80 eco.
I think people are getting to caught up in tau's tier 3 or 4, if it was major buff's that were being discussed then it would be an issue, but most of the changes seem pretty minor, and while they will make a small differance it needs to be kept in perspective.
In the most part it's not really going change the balance of tau in any noticable way, but it will make the big chicken more fun to use, it can be a frustrating unit to manouver at times and no one likes to see a unit arkwardly move itself about while being blasted.
Same story with the squig FOTM buff suggested by mlai, in practise it will have little overal effect, but the frustration as an orc player that you feel while you sit there an watch for what feels like an enternity as your squig stumbles around will be greatly reduced because you know he is actually doing some dmg while he lumbers into postion
Rex your right when you say he's not bad, but being good is not just about inflicting the highest dmg per blow, a unit like the avatar does very good dmg when he plants his sword in some poor guys head, but what really hurts is his AOE attacks, when he sweeps his sword an sends a whole group of infantry flying, the dmg to each infantry unit is not far off that of a standard blow and the effect of hitting multiple targets means in practise the total dmg is multiplied up considerably
Add in high dmg AOE attacks into high DMG single blow attacks and you get a unit that can kill a squad very effectively in a short space of time
#80
Brillant counter arguement there Hawallis. Don't attempt to refute any of my points or anything, just say that and we'll take your word as gospel.lol white pointer lrn2 read thread kk?
Again, evidence please. I find it hard to believe that between two equally skilled players Tau has no chance (which is what you're saying) of reaching tier 3 against 4 of the other 8 races in the game. Sorry that's not going to fly.Tau cant make T3 v cron
Tau cant make T3 v DE
Tau >> SOB no need to comment like with DE/cron
Tau >> eldar no need to comment
News flash - no one can fast tech anymore. Don't make it sound like Tau is the only race that can't fast tech.So tau T3 is weak. Tau no longer fast techs which was a vital strength of their T3 montka in DC.
White_Pointer
sorry on this but:
modify this with "Hawillis cant make T3 vs cron; Hawillis cant make T3 vs DE, Hawillis Tau> SoB, Hawillis tau > Eldar.Tau cant make T3 v cron
Tau cant make T3 v DE
Tau >> SOB no need to comment like with DE/cron
Tau >> eldar no need to comment
now, my experience is a different one... but hey, you surely stand for every player out there....
lol? maybe you just cant handle tau tier 3 as well as you think...; in my experience, tau tier 3 is just as easy/hard to use as any other races.Then remember that tau T3 needs to most skill of all the races.
see... there i am sensing the reasons for your problems.its hard to keep going back and building SS and slow reinforcing if you fighitng T3/4 vehicles.
i really dont know how tau tier 1<<< IG tier 1 - thats exactly the OPPOSITE experience i made in SS and previously in DC.Tau T3<<< IG T3 and factor in their T1 getting raped by IG you often have no advantage (often eco disadvantage due to upgrades for IG)
Tau T3> SM T3
Tau T3< Chaos T3. Long way dude. Oblivies pwnzors and Chaos plasma causes real detection issues for tau
Tau T3 v Ork T3 IDK. Tau one was way way behind in DC but no free sluggas will have altered this bit time. However as it stands I cannot get to T2 v a good ork as ork T1.5 pwns tau (tau T2 pwns ork its true but I cant get there v 1600-1700 orks because they know what they are doing)
hawillis, the problem in your balance suggestions and posts is that you have a FAR too much overrated fiew of yourself.
Well what I saw about the MUs I do not say lightly. It comes from playing games and talking with top end players.
So when I say Tau cannot get to T3 against cron I say it because of wraith spam. I have played many games v horde who was for a long time the top cron (he is in my clan) and despite trying many strats I can never survive the wraith spam. He agrees and he never loses to a tau.
For DE my experience is from playing TOT left. He bike spams. I have tried many counters such as TC vespids harass. BS tech. Kroot vespids harass, etc and I cannot overcome this strat. Yet again he agrees with me and I will be very surprised if a tau manages to beat him. Now sure Im not the best tau but Im good enough to understand the MUs.
Now I think you might hass miss read the next comment. I say 2 of the MUs are free win for tau.
Tau >> SOB
Tau >> eldar
This is from playing and beating strong eldar and sob. I cant remember exactly all the ppl I have played but suffice to say that its about 3-0 me v Dan's eldar. He is a much better player than me, but unfortunately Harlie bug but most importantly WL nerfing has had unforeseen consequences on the MU. Hence I have no knowledge of the T3 balance because as of yet no eldar has made it to T2.5 against me.
Nah I can say that tau T3 needs more skill. Im not trying to say tau is a pro race because tau has it comparatively easy going in the earlier tiers. But when compared to other races T3 (which of course I have played) tau T3 is one of the more taxing ones. Not the hardest eg. IG T3 is harder to play well because priest cycling requires very good macro, etc.
Erm Tau T1 struggles v IG because they have tough bases and the CS is a complete monster when played well. IG is teching very fast in SS and often the IG manage to get to HH before I can reach my T2 (Im often on the way). Or if the IG prefers GL then it is very challenging to counter as tau. Just my experience of the MU. I have gone from imba DC being able to beat serberus more often than not to atm being unable to beat comparative strength players and still incredibly hard versus weaker players.
Now as for the tau relic unit. He does require all the buffs stated previously. I dont care about regen. It will have almost no impact but turn speed is a must. However I dont see how you can ever balance him yet because I have only built him once in SS. The games just dont go to T4. I think the emphasis needs to go on the T1-2 balance then progressing onto T3.
When I reached the point where tau struggles vs IG T1 i stopped reading..
top end players who deploy in 90% of the matches exactly 1 strategy/race - but thats just a sidenote.Well what I saw about the MUs I do not say lightly. It comes from playing games and talking with top end players.
however, the fact that tau struggles in some matchups can be reduced to a few facettes of these matchups being broken. this does NOT mean tau is weak in a certain tier, but just that another race has some advantage over tau in this phase of the game. thats ALL you can conclude from your examples.
tau is a damn strong (nearly OP) race in most MU - team or 1vs1. if they struggle in some MU, this has nothing to do with tau being generally weak.
#85
It generally comes down to the CS hunting down stealth suits. No stealth suits, no map control. No map control vs IG = gg no re. That being said, I still think there were a handful of maps where TC/Vespid harass was an absolute **** to beat in DC. Now with the vespid nerf it should be managable.When I reached the point where tau struggles vs IG T1 i stopped reading..
False assumption, however in situations where top players do recycle the same strategy it is because they know their race inside and out and they're not going to waste their time on a strategy that isn't going to work.top end players who deploy in 90% of the matches exactly 1 strategy/race - but thats just a sidenote.
just what i meant... the top players are - ironically - not interested in "playing" but in winning. and you dont win 50 times in a row by playing with your race.False assumption, however in situations where top players do recycle the same strategy it is because they know their race inside and out and they're not going to waste their time on a strategy that isn't going to work.
Yes, in DC vespid pulse was unbelievably broken and IG suffered the most due to low hp large squad sizes. Alternatively pulse could take out 300 commander hp. It was imba and it broke the MU.
With that now out the equation, it is really hard to stop the CS. He easily beats the TC 1v1 and can FOTM down builders in no time. He can tear up both FW and gens with ease.
You wont get my SS with him due to jetpacks but its a nightmare to keep the CS out my base once he has a psyker attached. Now I have to produce many FW units so I can dance him and this is what delays my teching to a point where IG techs so much faster. Also due to FW setup time he can be important in IG > FW even in T1. Independant commies are very hard to drop once the CS is near your troops (due to their imba heal). With these lone commanders the TC cannot rly come close to any GM squads to flamer them.
edit: Mosch where are you getting that info from? I tweek my BOs and strats often and so do most opponents. It is a rare game that we use the same BOs as the previous. Always you look to say well I could have dropped that gen a bit later because I didnt need the power, or I could have used that SM squad a bit faster so lets place builder before cappers. I think Ill add kroot before that 2nd FW so they get more canabalise time, etc. Besides you have to be able to do the unexpected. One of the reasons top players are top players is because they can develop new strats. A good sm player will never let SS decap BO work him because its easy to counter. However this ties him down to building a SM squad immediately on small maps. So as the tau you have to be ready to throw in SS decaps in some games to ensure that he cant surprise you with an ASM BO.
Last edited by Hawillis; 20th Apr 08 at 8:51 AM.
the last time i met something unexpected in ranked AM was in vanilla DoW, version 1.2 when a buddy of the TLSC clan did a PSM build with chaos. since then, i really havent encoutnered anything unexpected.Besides you have to be able to do the unexpected. One of the reasons top players are top players is because they can develop new strats. A good sm player will never let SS decap BO work him because its easy to counter. However this ties him down to building a SM squad immediately on small maps. So as the tau you have to be ready to throw in SS decaps in some games to ensure that he cant surprise you with an ASM BO.
i dont agree with this - top players are top players because they play really effective with their race. they are able to squeze the las ounce of effectiveness out of their race. innovation however only happens when a new version (expansion) comes out and those players test the races for new tweaks and styles. after that, they again start optimizing their play.
this is also the exact reason why there always is a load of complainmaints by mid and low level players shortly after the release of a new DoW expansion: they try playing their old strategys in a new game and wonder why not all those strats work now. and while those players complain, the good players test out the races, adapt/change strategys - and as soon as those strats are posted and available for the broad mass of players, you will only see a very limited number of strategys /race/MU/map by a big variety of players, seperated only by the effectiveness of their gaming.
#89
You will actually see inovation on smaller scales when top players become familiar with eachother and it is usually on a tactical level rather than a strategic one. Unless there is some massive imbalance on the map/matchup it is rare to see the same player use the same strategy or tactic against the same opponent two games in a row. You seem to be contradicting yourself, you say that top players use the same strategies but then go one to say that they're the first people to adapt and develop new ones. In the worst case scenarios there are maybe only 1 or 2 winning strategies in certain matchups but that's hardly the players fault and I don't understand why you are criticising them for avoiding strategies that are just going to lose them the game.
i dont criticise them - however, its pretty much what i experienced in the past and now.
its really not contradicting that they develop the strategys they use themselves...
ask yourself: when where you really suprised of the enemy the last time?
i know, this isnt the most innovative game, but, additionally, the gamers are also a very conservative bunch. did i mention spore is coming soon btw?
Actualy, what makes the GK such a damage sponge is that sync kills make your units immune to damage, and since the GK is pumping out a sync kill almost once every 3-6secs against a squad of inf, throwing him in a squad of boyz is a great way to keep the enemy pointing their guns at the big smelly beast. Not to mention the knarloc has the stomp attack, and it actualy pushes back units a tad, he doesnt do it often, but it happens. Also in TT the GK wouldnt be able to stand against all the other ubers, though would put up a fight.
#92
Is there something wrong with kroot? I mean apart from the fact that they'll murder wraiths now that wraiths do less CC damage? So many Tau players are completely stuck on the idea of spamming fire warriors...So when I say Tau cannot get to T3 against cron I say it because of wraith spam.
Santiago would probably disagree with you on that one, as he's beaten Left's bike spam with Tau.For DE my experience is from playing TOT left. He bike spams. I have tried many counters such as TC vespids harass. BS tech. Kroot vespids harass, etc and I cannot overcome this strat.
White_Pointer
yes that was once. Lefts only loss to a tau I believe and when I asked him about it he said "lol I played shit". Plus it was during the early days and Im sure left hadnt finished improving his strat yet. Heck I swear when I lost to left I think he could have played better. I could point out mistakes in his game (everyone makes them) but even with him not applying enough pressure (so I could get to T2) it wasnt enough. Now I would seriously love santi to develop a tau=DE strat but I would not expect him to.
Ok I am sorry for about to sound harsh. Its just that wraiths really do piss me off to the extreme. They are so noobishly easy to spam and mean even a noob noob cron can beat tau. I tried so hard to get them nerfed for SS during the beta but my cries fell on deaf ears. Wraiths really do completely screw the tau MU (I do not agree that anything else cron has is emba from DC. All of it was beatable except for wraiths). So when some players come along and say have you tried X. The answer is yes. I have tried X and wraiths beat it with no sweat.
Now onto kroot. *SIGH*. Allow me to explain why kroot are a terrible idea v cron. You might be surprised how many reasons there are.
1. V cron you cannot eat cron gibs. In addition march of death means that you cannot stop to eat your own fallen. Therefore your kroot cannot scale.
2. FOs moral destroy make kroot redundant v NWs even early game.
3. The problem of a wraith spam is not so much them killing FW. Its the 2-3 wraiths that go around stripping you of your LP2s. Its the wraith sent in your base to kill builders that stops you getting vehicles or T3. You cannot get kroot due to 200 a unit costs and pop cap issues to run around versus wraiths.
4. Wraiths have movespeed 30, kroot 20. The only way to hurt wraiths is in cc but you cant even catch them with your cc. Buying time for ranged weapons is useless because they have effectively 2750 hp of invfantry high v ranged and can go invulnerable. Therefore a wraith never has to fight kroot if he does not want to and wraiths destroy bases faster than a tau can.
5. Wraiths are cheaper than kroot really its the time it takes to build them that is their cost. However wraiths often cut scene and can be reparied. A good cron repairs his wraiths AND CAN DO THIS WHILST THEY ARE FIGHTING kroot even in a cut scene.
6. Whilst the damage nerf is a good thing wraith still pwn kroot make no mistake. This is because the wraiths dont fight until there are about 3 of them. 3 wraiths >>>7-8 kroot no problems.
7. Kroot are units of cc and these cannot pressurize a cron base easily because their LP2s are very effective against dealing with units like kroot.
8. Cron has good moral damage in general (NW break SM moral) and definitely break kroot moral incredibly fast.
9. One of kroots best points are their moral damage. Wraiths are moral immune. A kroots hp and damage suck for his 45 rec cost. Using kroot on cron is inefficient. FO are also moral immune and NW can happily walk in circles from kroot doing good FOTM damage.
The only reason why anyone thinks tau can beat cron with some strats is that all cron players are noobs. Ppl think this of a joke but it is the honest truth. I have beaten general chaos's crons. He was the highest rated cron in DC. But really when you compare his SM and chaos, his crons are terrible. I can beat most crons out there with my tau but its ridiculous how crap they are. There is only ONE skilled cron player in DOW. His name is horde and I have never beaten him. I have never even come close.
As furthur proof of how bad these units are. I did once make it to T3 v horde recently. I was gone ok. I got out a hound unit + shaper but had nothing left. Was gg but I said let me test hounds out. They lost to his T1.5. Yes hounds are a damn sight better than kroot but they lost to plain old T1.5 NW and FOs. Lol @ even thinking I could have gotten my hands on a move 30 wraith unit.
Last edited by Hawillis; 21st Apr 08 at 5:05 AM.
#94
Only after wraithflight, before they have move speed 244. Wraiths have movespeed 30, kroot 20.
Last edited by corncobman; 21st Apr 08 at 7:03 AM.
LOL yeah, cuz you know, 24 is slower than 20.Only after wraithflight, before they have move speed 244. Wraiths have movespeed 30, kroot 20.
Edit: Reply to post below: lolmg.
Last edited by mlai; 21st Apr 08 at 9:06 AM.
#96
You only succeeded in making yourself look stupid.
I dont know how the conversation drifted to Tau Vs Cron like that, but seriously, I dont think a knarloc change would do anything at all to that MU (or pretty much any MU in competitive play) and generally would only be needed to make the knarloc pathing not shit.
And thats what the suggested changes have been, amirite? Speed up turn rate/decrease model size/possibly increase move speed? Nothing else? Sure, standardizing his HP and giving him an AoE attack have been discused but they are certainly not as important as generally letting the poor chicken walk?
The unit is a big contradiction
People say it's meant to be a damage sponge, well it's the worst one frankly, anything that can be repaired or restored is far better at being a sponge since you can soak up the dmg with a real chance to withdraw when low on health an repair it back to full strength for lower than replacement costs.
Units that can't be repaired, BT, Avitar have around 50% more health and in battle regeneration, the saint has regeneration + ressurection
Giving the chicken a decent health regen is a tweak that helps here, it's not going to make any major differance to balance but a unit thats there to soak up fire should have reasonable healing.
And for those that say it's a melee powerhouse it's not anywere near as good as those dps figures say in the real world, it's slow speed, and poor turn and pathing issue's mean in practise it's one of the worst CC units, being good in CC is not just about having a big bite, it's about applying that to a target, units with flight can engage the enemy in there most effective and vurable locations and do so instantly + they can evade dangers too.
Others like the avitar have powerful AOE attacks that multiply out there dmg to several targets, meaning that in practise this unit will probably kill an enemy squad just as effectively + all it's other bonus's.
Giving the chicken the abilty to move around your own units and enemy ones is not game breaking, a small speed boost and turn boost might actually mean you can get him into battle when there's an engagemtn involving more than 2 or 3 units, the truth is moving the gnarloc around any busy or tight area is a recipe for frustration it should not be like this, especialyl when the unit only brings CC to the table unlike other relics who either do what they do very effectively or bring additional utility to the battlefield.
Standard HP levels are more controversial and a high dmg AOE attack like on the avitar would actually be quite a major buff IMO, so i'm not gonna get drawn on those, but the above two things are pretty basic improvements that are needed and should have been instigated a long time ago.
ITS KNARLOC! With a K not a G!
However yeah, pathing fixes and we're good to go. Throw in that regen that doesnt suck ass and it'd be a freaking sweet uber.
hmmm...i don't think the knarloc needs to me more than an uber counter seeing as those hammerhead tanks are so strong and so easy to use. not to mention the other things tau have to counter ubers such as markerlight and snares and so on. Knarloc is fine imo.
Apple wants to give everyone "the business."
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