[SS 1.0] The Greater Knarloc

[Rotlung]

Odd that they're being compared with heavy bolters, because they feel like an army of heavy bolters to me.

[mlai]

get your facts right before confusing other people like that.

Right, and that is why Tau is not the #1 race in prize tournies.

Oh wait.

[PandaMine]

Man Orged_E are you seriously dumb or something?

Here are the DPS values obtained from relic wiki for the first ranged damage squads you can get

FW: 9.5/16.4/16.4/15.6/11.0/6.3
Space Marine Squad: 8.7/10.6/9.7/11.3/9.8/4.8
Shoota Boy: 8.2/10.1/8.8/8.2/6.0/3.9
GM: 5.5/5.5/5.5/5.5/3.9/3.3
BSS: 6.2/7.6/6.9/6.2/6.9/3.5
GS: 5.3/8.4/6.3/6.0/1.4/2.9
DR: 13.7/12.6/12.6/11.5/7.4/6.3

As you can clearly see, out of the box, FW beats everything in damage for T1. Why do you think they are so powerful in T1, in T2 advanced pulse rifles boost damage by 30%, which is one of the biggest DPS jumps for a research in T2 (eldar having the other researches)

Yes you can get more damage with the other squads with researches/weapons upgrades but that costs you RESOURCES. The only thing Tau needs to reserch is APR (and optics if you went kauyon).

[MonkeyMagic]

Yes because all units cost the same and have the same hp dps dosen't mean much.

Most t1 outshoots fw for cost, their pretty sucky really. What keeps them in the game is imba eco from ss, vesps & the TC.

Even in t2 I think target/bionic 2 tacs out shoot them for cost.

Ofc due to range and high dps/hp ratio they're pretty massy, compounded by econ and ss being uber av straight out of the box so theres not to many hardcounters for overmassing them.

If you wanted to nerf them drop they're cost per squad and stats accordingly so they're not as pop efficent.

[PandaMine]

Cost doesn't mean anything, as you have rightfully mentioned that SS give Tau such a good economy with jumping/invis cappers (and AV in T2)

I was saying, that out of the box, FW have the highest DPS/HP ratio, which they do. This means that in T2 all you need to have is map control (isn't hard with SS) and you basically send FW straight from rax to battle, re-inforcing on the way.

The fact that you also don't need to do any weapons upgrades (and only a single research) means that their cost pays for itself well very well (same reason why DR for eldar are so effective, they are just as expensive in cost compared to FW, and do slightly less damage out of the box)

[slay2rr]

PandaMine, FW cannot actually do much on their own with a sight of 17, they are almost blind out of the box, you need spotters like TC/SS to actually use their long range.

[PandaMine]

Whats your point?

Tau will always have TC/SS, that doesn't really show anything?

[KotCR]

Actually Panda, for their cost in T1 Fire Warrior HP is abysmal.
But your correct in saying that their damage for cost is great, it's among the best...overall only matched by Shoota Boyz, Mysticism Whorelocked Guardians, and T1 special/heavy weapons.
Naturally, they also have the best range.

Even in t2 I think target/bionic 2 tacs out shoot them for cost.

Due to their health, if they can get into range safely, Tacticals will outshoot pretty much everything in T1 for cost (exception is once again Mysticism Warlocked Guardians, but that can be remedied with Flamers/Heavy Bolters or Frags). Even more so with Bionics/TFs (or in the case of CSM PP Champs).

But the expensive costs of a T1 CSM/SM base, and in the case of the SM, a slow-time to the field...make noticing their superior firefight abilities in T1 a little difficult, seems you are always going to have less req worth of troops than your opponent due to the races' more expensive support design structure (in the case of Tau, you just need a 150 RAX + 150 Power, SM need a 250 RAX + 175/50 Armoury + 135 Power, CSM need a 300 RAX + 175/50 Armoury + 135 Power. In the case of SM, they also have more expensive cappers and builders).

[PandaMine]

FW HP may be absymal for cost, but considering you have Snare's and PF in T2, FW should not be recieving many/if any casualties. The only possible excuse could be animes virtue, or chains of tourment, however the former is is in T2, and yet again there is nothing stopping you from putting snares directly where your FW are shooting (works great against TP'ing commanders like bigmek or NL), so if they do get chained and melee'ed they will have a fun time running after you. Its the same thing with DR (although in their case they have slightly more HP), yes DR are quite expensive but if you know what you are doing, you should have minimal to no casulties

On an extended note about the other races costs in T1, Tau also have the advantage that their cappers are also jump units, which means that in smaller 1v1 maps you can easily make do with just 1 SS and do some rushing with kroots and then FW. The superior capping power of SS also means that they will have much better economy then however they are versing (possibly only exception would be eldar)

I already mentioned before that Tau needed a nerf to the build time and the cost of their rax, which currently are ridiculous. I was just stating how the nerf's to Tau where in completely in the wrong areas, which is why they are still #1 in comp even after the nerfs

[MaddoxX]

the nerf that they need the most is to barracuda, Tau don't need TC or SS to spot because they have PFT that has 50 sight.

With that they can move in any position on cease fire because you CAN"T SEE HIM and when he is positioned you are dead.

[Orgad_E]

Man Orged_E are you seriously dumb or something?

(by pandamine)

learn to read before you flame. i will resist the temptation to call you names in order to keep this thread... ordered.

i said, in my post that you did not read, damage for cost. for cost.

now read that last line again just to make sure you understand. good.

and to the point:

But your correct in saying that their damage for cost is great

(by kotcr)
kotcr, didnt expect to hear something like this from you O_o check the dps tables. FW does less damage for cost then a sm tac.

[PandaMine]

Except that an SM tac costs another 300 req and 150 power just to get rax and armory

Tac also has less range

Im not talking about Damage/Cost ratio, im talking about pure damage out of the box, which FW are the highest. The fact that tacs are better for cost means jack shit when SS can cap half the map before you can blink your eyes, and they outrange tacs by a longshot

[slay2rr]

MaddoxX, pathfinders are T2, we're talking about T1 out-of-the-box FW.

PandaMine, Tacs have better hp, in fact if they engage in a 1-on-1 shoot to death without reinforce or extra range, tacs beat FW by a longshot.

SS needs quite a fair bit of micro since you'll need to jump them as opposed to queing points. SS cannot actually do any reasonalbe damage unlike other races cappers.

FW only out-ranges with spotting, SM don't need them.

[PandaMine]

So what if tacs have better HP?

Tacs would most likely have half their HP raped before they even reach FW, and SS serve as spotters before T2 when PF come out

You can't look at a vacuum and say "because this unit has better HP for cost ratio it will win the battle"

Also SS can do very reasonable damage when you do the Stealth Burst Cannon Enhancements which increases their damage by 300% (melee and ranged). Not that the upgrade will make their damage insane, but being invis and having jumps it makes them quite potent

You also realise you can queue jumps? As in you do shift + jump + right click on point you are jumping to?

[Rotlung]

I don't see why there's an issue with FW sight range. If necessary, put the SS on Cease Fire mode and let him be the spotter until Pathfinders emerge. Besides, you'll almost certainly have TC/Vespids/combination (hell, kroot too if you can afford them at the same time) used with Fire Warriors. Sight range becomes a penalty if and only if your Fire Warriors are used in isolation. But when does that happen anyway?

The micro difference for SS is marginal because you can queue jumps with other actions as well. The only ability that can't fit in a queue properly is entrench/un-entrench, which applies only to HWTs and Broadsides anyway.

[fuggles]

Wow... so much off topic!

Is the GK still the only T3 relic unit?

[ImmortalChaos]

No, the GK got pushed back to T4 in the either DC patch or SS.

[Latias418]

It was in dc.

[KotCR]

kotcr, didnt expect to hear something like this from you O_o check the dps tables. FW does less damage for cost then a sm tac.

I have and they do more; Look:

Vs. infantry_med / infantry_high / heavy_med

Fire Warrior DPS for cost;
0.234 / 0.234 / 0.223 per req.

Space Marine Tactical DPS for cost;
0.212 / 0.194 / 0.226 per req.

The exception is heavy_med, which is these squad's armour type, so indeed in this unit showdown the Tac does do a very slight tad more; But the Fire Warrior does significantly more to infantry_med and infantry_high.

In a straight fight the biggest deciding factor though, is the Tac Marine HP. But in a large scale fight the biggest deciding factor tends to be Fire Warrior range.

I don't actually have much beef with Fire Warriors anyway. I think they are pretty well balanced at that point. It's everything else the Tau have in T1 that's fUber.

[simanos]

For large fights you would need vehicles or jump troops.
In small fights it's also possible to melee the FWs with the Tacs (or scouts even).
FWs are fine, huge setup, low damage, low hitpoints, hi cost all payed for that long range. Personally I think Eldar DRs are better unless you go Monkta and get the final range upgrade which is very good.
Can we get back to the GK?

[Chaingun]

I'm sure you mean Kayuon.

[slay2rr]

In DC GK had a ultra-fast build time of 30secs, thats also been nerfed to the normal 90secs

[simanos]

Yeah, sorry I meant Kauyon. I always have trouble even in game with choosing the one I want for some reason. And then I'm like WHERE ARE MY CRISIS?! LOL
(or something similar for the other one)

[Orgad_E]

yeah actually montka FW cost the same as reapers and have the same range, but have alot less damage, while reapers have no setup, can use fof,and have more hp... if you go kauyon however they have alot better range and terminator armor so they are way better.

edit: confused apparently. fixed the post. edit is in italic

[PandaMine]

Dark Reaper also happens to be one of Eldars most imba units, next to fragons and others

[slay2rr]

How is reaper IMBA?

[PandaMine]

O
M
G

I T1 heavy infantry raping unit with FoF and no setup time that scales well into T3 and range that matches the FW and more HP then the average ranged unit (450 iirc) is not imba?

Have you even played DoW apart from single player?

Have you even read the Dark Reaper imbalance thread in this subforum or on DoW sanctuary?

Here is the 20 page thread where almost everyone agrees that DR are imbalanced and something needs to be done about it

http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=197912

[Corsair1]

^^Maybe, Dark reapers in T1 and maybe T2 are imbalanced, i won't argue there. But in late game, which is what i assume you meant by "scaling well", yeah they scale ok but not as good as others like FW.
Others my disagree with this, its just my opinion.

[PandaMine]

FW's seam to scale well because its the only long range ati inf shooter that Tau has. Dark Reapers with upgrades have similar range (unless Tau went Kauyon) and much more damage

[Orgad_E]

yeah but while Tau has no other ranged specialist ( crisis doesnt count...) eldars got warp spiders.

however i dont agree that DR are imba late game, in T1 they have too much hp though. imo reduce in 50 and and add it back with researches. give banshees 50 extra hp aswell, they suck T1.

now back on the topic- The Greater Chicken.

[PandaMine]

Exactly my point, Eldar don't use Reapers (actually they still do if they have some lying around because of their scaling ability) because WS's come around, which do more damage then Reapers and have TP

[Corsair1]

Now back to the point. The Knarloc needs no buff, he's fairly tough health wise, has a good armor class and does kick ass 1v1 damage to single units. What else should it do. The rest of the tau army is very good and the knarloc acts as a barrier so they can shot stuff up while being relatively safe.
Apart from pathing and speed fix I don't mind it the way it is now.

[slay2rr]

GK is not tough healthwise(mont'ka of course), 8000 is really low for a melee relic. without the health buff it's just not worth 5 cap.

[Corsair1]

Well I pretty much always go kauyon so im used to having the stronger one. But 8000k of health while not completely kickass will still take some time for most things to kill. Also with montka you get the hammerheads which may make for his lower health they also have huge range. I wouldnt mind giving it an armor upgrade like the kauyon maybe 10k for montka and 11k for kauyon.

[StarMaverick]

Well the Knarloc is slow as hell for starters, which makes him getting to the frontlines a pain in the ass. It also can ONLY attack 1 v 1, not very much disruption, and it turns around as slow as a snail. You could just tie the Knarloc up with cheap melee units and it'd be useless.

I still think Feral Leap is a good idea.

[Corsair1]

Well cheap melee units would die within a few a seconds under FW fire, so it may slow him, but if your enemy is shooting the GK, your FW will get free raom and rape everything he has.

[Baro]

+1 To leaping chiken. Not only would it solve the pathing/lack of splash problems, but would also be very original and add variety to the game. Nerf something to compensate

[Arkandea]

If the Knarloc could leap, it had better be a special ability. It would wreak absolute imba-havoc on ranged armies if it had the splash and disruption I'm imagining a leaping dinosaur would have.

I think a small speed boost and a moderate turning rate boost. But the already uberness of Tau makes me wonder whether even that's necessary.

[Chaingun]

Step1: Nerf Tau
Step2: ???
Step3: Profit! (Now you can buff Gnarloc)

So yeah buffing Gnarloc will be good the day Tau actually need their relic unit.

[Fellblade]

Leaping Knarloc? WOW, i would get into tier 4 every game simply to watch imba-imba-imba-OP-OP-on-the-verge-of-broken splash and disrupt caused by that. It would send dreads flying and people could rellay start singin "i believe i can fly" and "it's raining men!"

[Orgad_E]

So yeah buffing Gnarloc will be good the day Tau actually need their relic unit.

this line pretty much says it all.
the chicken sux, but who needs him.

[simanos]

I'm pretty sure those who said give leap to GK meant it as a jump ability like the Bloodthirster has, not a special uber attack.

[ImmortalChaos]

I'm pretty sure those who said give leap to the GK were joking... at least... I hope they were.

[Pigletdude]

Honestly people I think I have a pretty smart idea!

One of the problem is that the Knarloc gets bogged down in melee combat in which it can't get out of fast enough.

So why not give it a Roar ability which makes enemies flee much like the Necron Lord's Tier 3 ability though i forget the name of it.

So yeah fluff wise it makes sense as the knarloc is pretty scary for a gigantic chicken and it would help it clear a path to more important enemies.

[Akagi_Ryu]

Since when is there ANY fluff on the fat chick?

Besides, only time I see the big mofo stomping the field is either if Tau has nothing better to do and has too much req OR is a newbie that thinks a relic unit is more powerful than FW spam.

Seriously, remove the chick from the game and most players won't be able to tell the difference anyway!

[simanos]

Roar ability sounds fun.
A Rampage ability like the Squiggoth's might also work, no?

[Baro]

leap, leap,leap, leaping chikeeeeeen!!

Nerf whatever else.

[PandaMine]

Can people please get over the leaping chicken

It aint gonna ever happen, doing so in the first place would mean that Relic/IL would have to update the GK model, which I'm pretty sure they are not going to do to satisfy people's urges to see a leaping big fat chicken across the screen

[KotCR]

We can dream .

[D-coy]

Let it lay eggs as a special, from which Krootox hatch.