2.3-WM-BRIT-1v1 balance broken at top levels of play

[MagsX]

In this patch the wehrmacht - american balance is probably better than ever. The strafe and m8 are being fixed so forget them, otherwise the balance is great. Pure riflespamming is harder with the new better mg, but rifles + wsc is just pure agony for wehr when properly executed. At the top the games are long and sweaty and I like it!

However the same cant be said about the brit-wehr balance at all. At the top of the top the brits have all the advantages.

There are several problems - units, maps and abilities.
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Lets start with the british trucks. At the start of a 1v1 game the brit guy rushes his recon squad to whatever point he wants to cap and puts his truck there. This not only gives him additional resources but also a free uncuttable FHQ where he can resuply men and build more close to the key areas which guarantees that he can use all his troops to fight the wehrmact at all times.

On certain maps the problem is in the suplies. Capping a +16 point with the truck just gives too much resources to be fair. THis makes angoville for example completely unplayable vs equally skilled brit in 1v1.

On other maps the problem is more the free base in the key area of a map - usually overlooking 2 VPs. Add some emplacements and the wehrmacht is left to capping the sides and defending his own strat point for example in langres, while trying to seize the middle VP is nigh impossible due to mortar emplacements and the full british force just nearby the VP.

There is no chance to contest this since the wehrmact pio cant quite handle the recon squad by alone or by 2 and then the truck is there already. After this the brit can comfortably fortify the area of the vps and win the game.

FIX: Id like the brit truck to be able to high-up a point that is connected to the basescreen only. This way wehrmact could better contest the middle vps in several maps and not every game would en up looking WM 35k points 0 vps, Brit 20k points 400 vps game over. It would force the brit actually win the gameplay not just camp vps.
Also the brit truck should get less more ammu/fuel for capping a + 16 point. Problem is mainly in angoville and langres. Riflenades/bren carrier upgrade hit the game so early its not even funny.

New bren carrier: the upgraded bren carrier is way too deadly in skilled hands, it kills everyhting at tier 2 and is not counterable until tier 2, which is often too late. An upgrade in firepower should compromise armor, not add to it. It takes 3 fausts to kill an upped bren but only 2 to kill a stuart!
I understand the bren carrier can be used to defend brit truck vs early flamer rushes, but the skilled people use it more on the offensive to just ravage wehrmacht player early.
FIX. less health with the addon -- 2 fausts max -- slightly more received mg damage too (its not a very good offensive weapon so rushing brits would stil be deadly with a bren around, but at the moment brits can just rush the wehmr player and kill everyhting wth the bren and thats just silly

Riflenades:FIX less range/dmg pls. The riflenades just nullify wehrmacht mgs due to the long range and high damage and if the brit gets pinned, hey just retreat and get back in 10 secs. Shoot over hedges to buildings for free etc. also somehwat map-spesific, but on high ammu maps a too big bonus for brits. (the 5man tommy squad is pretty much unkillable so its not like youre gonna lose the upgrades like lets say a volks with mp40s that die in seconds after their initial engagament (half health 5man squad)

Mortar bunker: this is just a silly thing. Its not fair in any way in 1v1 that it cant be killed by normal weapons fire in practice. A well palced mortar bunker cant be attacked by the PAK -at gun and a good brit doesnt let flamers or shreks get close long enough to kill it. All the while the bunker kills wehrmacht units like knife cuts butter.. The additional range with RCA is jsut silly in 1v1s - its clearly intended for team games. FIX: more damage from light arms and mortar-fire, less longer range in 1v1s with the rca doctrine.

All brit emplacements and repairing: FIX less speed pls. Its WAY TOO FAST to repair the emplacements. Like a game I had today where i had 2 panzers shooting at a 17 punder while 1 sapper unit was fixing it the same speed as sappers were repairing. THe most problematic emplacement is of course the 17 punder, whcih is just hell to kill with tanks and the sappers repair it at a speed that clerly shows relic thinks one should kill it with shreks.
Id like to see smt like all tommy squads having rudimentary repair like the PE, but sappers having a better repair, but still especially fixing the 17 pounder should take more time. Overrepair should take LOTS of more time.

Stuart tank: 2 fausts is a bit silly, it should take 3. FIX: slightly more health/less faust damage vs stuart.

Artillery: This stuff is really not balanced for 1v1 games. I mean its absolutely devastating, you get it pretty early and it reaches everywhere ina 1v1 map. It shoots too far, makes too much damage and the special abilities are too powerfull. Its really out of league in comparison to all the other arty in game. Its like a howi but you get it at tier 2 as opposed to several cps and spesific doctrine and lategame. It doesnt take much skill for example to force some part of axis army to retreat then shoiot down at his HQ and kill everyhting. In combination with other defenses it also makes VP-camping way too easy. It forces wehmacht forces to retreat to base, because in a small map the arty is so close the retreat is only way to get away quick enough and when you get back for a nother attack it has already reloaded! FIX: less speed! less range in 1v1? less damage. (doesnt have to nerf all them) overwatch is too powerful in this patch too. The priest shoots too fast too, though this is not so often a problem in 1v1 since it arrives late into game.

Cromwell: This tank is just awesomely OP in the right hands. Its not a tank killer, but who needs that vs the wehrmacht since the stug is a useless piece of shit and getting a panzer or panther takes so long brit player can have an army of these on the field already. The crom is just too good at killing infantry: it practically kills a guy/guys with every shot. In addition the shot fells the advancing suqad over hindering its movement. Its just that in the top 1v1s a bren - stuart - cromwell just is unbeatable. After shreknerf the superinfantrykill-ability is not called for anymore. FIX: less damage or accuracy vs infantry, especially moving infantry.

Churchill. For 600 mp and 3 cps!(no fuel!) you get a heavy tank that can insta-suppress all wehrmacht squads.. Jeez.. how about FIX: just suppress 1 squad.. The tank is good enough as it is for just 3 CPs.

Liutenant: heroic charge: jeez.. FIX: vet 2 for liutenant maybe first?
allthouhg its no so bad anymore, still its retarded in maps like angoville and langres where you can cut werhmacht with taking 1 point -so rush past mgs and kill everyhting ftw.

Retreat ability and unsuppress: Well I have never been a fan of the the free base in the middle of the map. I think its just silly then that if the brit player overextends and puts his HQ where i can get mgs to shoot at it, then his retreating units instantly disapper from the pin, shoot some riflnades at my mg, get pinned again - retreat and are unsuppressed again and shoot at my mg again and buum the mg is dead while the riflenadeguys jsut resupply. FIX: a modifer for retreat too often to slow the unsuppressing.

Trench: well enough said on the trench. FIX: undeletable, more damage from everyhting, damage to trench from tanks and heavy fire and damage to the guys inside from light arms fire.

Maybe i forgot something, but there are so many its so easy and i got a cold..
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Id be superhappy to see even some of these OP units nerfed vs the wehrmacht faction to really make it at least winnable vs an equal skilled brit-player at top level of play.

I do understand the less skilled bruit players are annoyed by a tier 1 rush with flamers that ends the game in 10 minutes, but jeez the bren carrier upgrade was too much! The commandos were the only thing fixed, but its not nearly enough.

Personally I think if the brits were less OP, more skilled people would actually play them. Now its a commonly agreed fact in the top 100 player club that brits are OP and its a shame to even play them - just like its shameful to use the current SR.

Ok this all considering 1v1s and Im the top wher 1v1 player in this patch so I have a feeling I know what Im talking about and since you hopefully can read the TOPIC, keep the talk in TOP SKILL SUBJECT, lets say smt like lvl 10+. You can always make a new thread if you want to discuss lower level balancing. Personally I think though when everyhting is balanced at the top, it will settle nicely at the lower levels too.

jeez long rant, but hey 1v1 is broken!

[Pengu]

I agree. Especially about the howitzers in 1v1. If they even manage to get 1 up its just lights out because overwatch will kill everything in half a second. I mean on angonville you can hear the howitzer fire, and literally at the same moment the shell kills everyone with no chance to dodge at all. I have a lot of issues with the mortar pit too. I try so damn hard to keep those things from being built, but you just can't always get to it in time to stop the construction. Once its up your pretty much fucked unless your opponent screws up.

[UnholyX]

Hey Mags
Mag you hit it all and you made some very good points.
Having said that I known Mags for 6 years or more. We are both in the same clan for a long time he is not ranting.
I agree with evrything he said.

[Catastrofizum]

I really think you have a lot of issues with the Brits that are beyond the where a start needs to be urgently mad in balancing them - the tommies. Just too absurdly tough. They refuse to die. Volks versus them is an absolute joke, mg is your only chance. Panzer elite arn't much better. I've had my garand squad in heavy cover nailing the scout squad as it caps and had one of my men go down first! Then i'm down to 2 men, and with a sniper shot it's one and i'm a real chance of losing this squad so must retreat from the squad the Brits got for FREE(450manpower worth!!!).

The brits need a major rework. I think get rid of this concept that can just stroll out and pretty much own any key resource and plant their bus from word go. Fixing this shouldn't be so hard - scout squads should be a completely unique buildable unit of 3 men worth say 200mp with one being given for free at start. It truly is a light unit and is made for capping and sniper counter essentially. Standard tommies need about 20% knocked off their health/armor for a start and possibly price adjusted to suit. The geenral idea is that they are actually killable. A big part of this game with Wehr, American and PE is trying not to lose squads, especially in the early game. Leaving your retreat too late or getting a bad retreat path and losing a squad is an early blow. With the Brits this key dynamic just doesn't seem to exist because with retreat modifiers on I may as well be shooting at tanks. I've had a 5 man scout squad retreating after getting beaten up through 3 PG squads with me running alongside them trying to get an extra kill or two. Not one of them dropped. Easy as you please back to their bus a short distance away and straight back out onto the field with no penalty for being outmaneuvered. The upshot for this is that there is never ever an interesting small arms fight involving tommies (ahhh the glorious volks/mg vs rifleman shootouts, where art thou?).

Fix this, THEN we can worry about trenches - another absurdity of the Brits. I think the end goal should be a competitive Brit force that goal should be to get trucks out to the field during middle and late game - strictly as forward HQ's and sector lockdowns. No free observation post, but one may be bought keeping the existing resource boost ability although this just acts as a standard observation post would. It's semi major surgery but to me it's a fundamental change that would put them right. Forget balancing anything else Brit until the basics are looked at.

[Monkeypoop]

New bren carrier: the upgraded bren carrier is way too deadly in skilled hands, it kills everyhting at tier 2 and is not counterable until tier 2, which is often too late. An upgrade in firepower should compromise armor, not add to it. It takes 3 fausts to kill an upped bren but only 2 to kill a stuart!
I understand the bren carrier can be used to defend brit truck vs early flamer rushes, but the skilled people use it more on the offensive to just ravage wehrmacht player early.
FIX. less health with the addon -- 2 fausts max -- slightly more received mg damage too (its not a very good offensive weapon so rushing brits would stil be deadly with a bren around, but at the moment brits can just rush the wehmr player and kill everyhting wth the bren and thats just silly

Thank you! someone sees the light. Among hi lvl brits i play, most of them agree Bren carrier is a bit too powerful

i think the biggest problems in the matchup are the Bren carrier and early truck on a +16 point.

I have to disagree tho on arty, because 25blr in general is very easy to take out (something like 4-5 shrek shots) unless it has a huge number of emplacements covering all sides of it

but bren carrier definitely needs a fix. Probably the biggest problem in 1v1 right now brits vs wm simply because it can kill any unit in T1 head on (including MG's on open ground, and there really isnt that much green cover in 1v1 maps) and also 3/4 units in T2 (Halftrack, gren, Mortar). and getting 310 mp pak to counter a freaking bren is ridiculous. and no dont even say faust cause no WM player builds 2 of those, if even 1 cuz they suckkkk against tommies (might as well mg/pio spam)

and the retreat thing is because they have a retreat modifier that makes them 2x as hard to kill as any of the other races ontop of their infantry_soldier armor...

I have to admit brits have their own problems (infantry AT/RCA) but many of their strengths are in the early game, which of course decides whether or not there will be a late game

The US vs PE matchup is still pretty borked too though, and the funny thing is that once SR is fixed things will be pretty much an uphill battle every game, since that was the only saving grace US had.

[Pyro Paul]

HQ Trucks.
the problem really isn't the fact they can move their HQ truck to a territory they are about to capture, the real problem is the HQ truck being able to upgrade with Warp Factor engines from the get go. the slow as a infintry HQ truck from the start doesn't a lot the british player much advantage and can acctually put them at a great disadvantage if they take too long to advance, but this 'disadvantage' disappears with the purchause of the 150 mp and 10 fuel Speed Govn'r removal and instilation of nitro boosters and dylithium crystals...

the Speed goveners upgrade needs to be moved back requiring the purchause of the Field Support truck before being unlocked. it is supposed to be a mid game item allowing your trucks to retreat rather than be destroyed. it is not supposed to be an early game advantage allowing your HQ truck to achieve speeds Faster than a motorcycle or Blitzed Panzer IV which allows it to get across the map in moments.


he should be given the chance to still be able to get to a point, capture it, then set up on it, but his truck shouldn't be already sitting there waiting for the infintry to capture it in order to be deployed.

[Schwarzwald]

Great points made Magsx, Also id like to add forward retreating exploit needs a fix as well. You know the one where brits do this tommies>speedgovernors> send truck to highest fuel/mu point than press retreat making them tommies run superman jedi speeds following the truck to that location.

Awaiting the brit fanclub to bust in with battering ram claiming L2P.

kidding, anyway i had a good discussion with gunnersmate hes like number one or two on brit ladder he told me himself the brit vs wehr match needs help as wehrmacht is severely lacking in many aspects vs brits, only way a brit would usually lose if he were to screw up and that wehr player would play a perfect game w/o screwup.

conclusion really is that british are just really boring to play vs, its always the same thing unlike vs US and PE or US vs Wehr. I feel however that 2v2 is in need of more fixing/balancing than 1v1 ATM with wehr vs brit/american combo imo.

Would be nice if panzerfaust could be used in T1 to counter that bren carirer, unfortunately it is T2..

Bikes used to beable to take on bren carrier...however since its MG buff thats impossible.

[MentalAss]

As an exclusive Wehr player, I can't help but disagree on most points. The only points that I can justify fixing are the Bren and Stuart's health points and the inability to cut off Brit resources, which I doubt would be easy to code as thier base area is just a regular Strategic Point.

Riflenades out perform MP40 Volks? Am I reading correctly? Just rush up and clobber that riflenade Tommy squad. Seriously, riflenades are so inaccurate rushing in M40 Volks will barely take casualties. In fact in my experience with riflenades, I'm surprised the Tommys can actually hit the house with the MG in it.

The 17 pounder...you sent tanks against a 17 pounder and expected to win? Come on man. Even with out repairing, I'd expect you to lose at least one of those Panzer 4's and limp away with the other at the very least. Next time try Panzershreks, they are insane versus emplacements. By the time a 17 pounder is up, I'd be expecting any Wehr player to have at least two shreks on the field.

Artillery. Never really been a fan of artillery either. I can't really comment on it since I rarely come across it. However, if you're worried about it's abilities like Pengu here, don't be. Look at it this way, you won't see Commandos, Churchills or some ability to further milk resources from a point. I'd be more relieved that the Brit went with the RCA.

The Cromwell. Well it does chew through infantry like no tomorrow, and with our bum StuG (seriously Relic, the StuG needs love), you're looking too far ahead in teching to get a Panzer 4 or Panther. There is a perfectly good counter in tier two, the PaK. Cloaked, it's guaranteed to get first shot and continually chews through Cromwells like I do through cake.

The Churchill. Well it's a Cromwell with more health and the ability to surpress infantry. Again, the PaK should be out by the time the first Churchill hits the field. Bait it with a couple of 280MP Volk to surpress, and watch the PaK spit the 600MP heap back at the Brits.

The Lieutenant. Have you ever seen what one of our shreks does to him? POP! Instagib. If anything he needs a buff in health. It's not just the Lieutenant, I find all Heroic Charges/Fire-Ups to be too long lasting for a non munition ability.

Retreat ability and unsuppress. If a Brit player does this twice to the same building, why don't you send some support to that location? With usually only one Lieutenant built and most likely capping, I doubt that riflenade squad has him attached, making them move slower in neutral or enemy territory, giving you time to bring in the support, like MP40 Volks.

The Trench. Indeed, enough has been said about the trench. Initially I supported the inability to delete function, but after seeing what happens when I take one over, I sincerely support the delete function. The Brit, without a doubt, will be at a severe disadvantage trying to take it back. Before you say riflenades, I can tell you that they don't work so hot against trenches. And if he does manage to come close, hey look, you can delete it too.

My two cents.

[Reverie]

Good to know that even 10+ level players agree that Brit vs Wehr is messed up.

[Monkeypoop]

There is a perfectly good counter in tier two, the PaK. Cloaked, it's guaranteed to get first shot and continually chews through Cromwells like I do through cake.

lol gonna sig that

not that its not true, pak does chew through croms

[UnholyX]

As an exclusive Wehr player, I can't help but disagree on most points.

MentalAss,
you do realize that MagsX is short for MagpiesFlightX who is currently Ranked 1st on the Ladder in 1vs1 play as Wehr.
He also guy who started this Thread.

[TheWickedGerman]

I would like people stop insulting when someone disagrees with his opinion. Would help everybody.

Im just lvl 6 Wehr(about 4K something) and dont play brits, som im not so sure if all your points are true, but i feel the same with many of them.

Someone mentioned the tommys wont die, but in my opinion assault nades eat them for breakfast, they are even too slow to dodge. It´s my favourite toy vs brits, its kills almost every emplacement.

[SilencerPL]

This thread will be broken when Croat and Scotallio will appear

But on the topic.

I also must agree with the OP. Also there is the question - why on earth Tommies have soldier armor ? Ok - they maybe worht 450mp but why on earth soldier armor.

They are 5 man squad with Lee-Enfield rifle wich is better than kar98. Now compare to other T1 infantry.

Rifles - 6 man squad - infantry armor - Garand rifles (best at close range)
Volks - 5 man squad - infantry armor - weaker kar98
Grens - 4 man squadn - infantry armor - kar98
Storms - 4 man squad - infantry armor - kar98
PGrens - 3 man squad - soldier armor - kar98

So every other race except pgrens have infantry armor and each of the infantry has the same chance of killing oposing army.

Now pgrens are only 3 man squad so better armor is justified. Wehr gets bettter armor after vet 2 wich is high cost - specialy against brits. And in 1v1 vet is just luxury.

Now any good brit player will start to build second tommie squad and that makes the oppening for them unchallenged - rush with truck to strategic place and you can secure half the map. And as OP stated wich is true - MGs suppresion can be bypassed.

In the first place I would recommend removing soldier armor from tommies - commandos can have it as they are elite infantry and with the removal I would reduce their cost to 350MP

[Monkeypoop]

I believe the infantry_soldier armor was to counter the fact that tommies cost 450 per squad. And that is ok and all actually since the values work out to be what you would expect for the cost of that unit.


Of bigger concern is the bren carrier and the lack of timer on commando demo's

[sporty]

Interesting points. The only one I'd like to comment on is map dependency. There are many maps in the rotation made with the "classic" CoH style of play in mind. Being the one faction that plays differently in this regard, Brits gain or lose power based on map layout.

I feel that's the most critical issue in 1v1, but would it warrant touching (among others) the holy cow of CoH, Angoville?

[SilencerPL]

But here is the point - tommies with soldier armor are too tough. PGrens cant handle them 1on1 and 2on1. Volks also - and besides you can have 2 tommies squad faster than 1 volks squad and if pe player decide to spam grens on start they will be fast eaten by tommies.

[Monkeypoop]

pgrens should be okay with mp44 or G43, but volks are still pretty lacking and thats why nobody builds them

[SilencerPL]

G43 and Mp44 cost munition wich is costly - and with agressive brit sometimes additional g43/mp44 comes too late. All in all brti T1 totally nullifiels Wehr T1 and partialy T2. PE can counter brits with either fast SC or fast P4 (map dependand).

[Monkeypoop]

that mostly sums it up, but G43 and early MP44 surely gives PE a much better chance against Brits then WM does, mostly because PE and Brits were designed to be balanced against each other

[SilencerPL]

The same reactions we would see if PE Grens were 5 man squad vs rifles add G43 upgrade and whole US T1 is nullified

[Monkeypoop]

well G43 pretty much does nullify all of US T1

[SilencerPL]

Partialy true, but the first engagement grens mostly lose to good us player. Right now anyone good on US side know that against PE fast M8 is the way to go.

[Splitmonkey]

Riflesquad+jeep beat 2 starting pg squads

[Skyline Pete]

THe most problematic emplacement is of course the 17 punder, whcih is just hell to kill with tanks and the sappers repair it at a speed that clerly shows relic thinks one should kill it with shreks.

I stopped reading at this point.

[scoiatollo]

To fulfill Silencers prophecy... ;p

@Moving HQ truck:
And at the same time you leave all your base defense behind, risk being instantly surpressed by an mg42, or being taken out by early Schrecks. Yea it is a powerful ability but it also has downsides. Dunno how many times it happened that I have to retreat my HQ cause the WM player managed to get a mg42 up near my HQ...
Btw I have no idea why you are complaining about Langres, this map favours WM it's not even funny. Pios supported by mg42 lock down 2/3 (probably even more) of the map while you fast tech T2 or skip it if you go storms.

@BC:
IIRC an upgunned BC takes 2 faust hits and a few small firearms hits and it's dead meat. It get countered fairly easy in 1v1 since the normal duration WM stays T1 is about 7min I'd say. If you desperately wanna get rid of a BC get close enough, it has a horrible turning speed and a very narrow firing arc and shoot it while it tries to escape. If he won't repair it with his 35mun ability you gonna kill it very easily in the next encounter since he will have no other way to repair it till he has his sappers for another 320.

@riflenades:
You are joking right? They have an awful accuracy without double Lt and everything in CC gonna pwn them. They are Brits only mobile way to get rid of mg42 after they nerfed the recon range and buffed the mg42 to instant supression...

@Mpit:
Your best bet to get rid of it T1 is scouting with bikes (their damage is insane btw...). I honestly don't think that it should get more damage from small fire arms, you can't retreat or repair it (T1) so it has to be good armored.
Btw choosing RCA in 1v1 requires a lot of guts since it's still the most useless faction in 1v1.

@repairing:
Overrepair already takes a lot of time, plus it decays when you are finished! If you lose your tanks to an AT placement I guess you got the part with the AT wrong...
Things you could have done instead: Assault naded it, Mortared it, Schrecked it, drove circles around it (assuming you didn't use StuGs/StuHs), made a nice BBQ,....

@Stuart: Dunno if it should be more resilient, imo it's fine atm. You get a "weak" tank with excellent AI capabilities which will never get fausted anyway if you know how to kite.

@artillery:
I managed in only 2 1v1 to get a 25lb on the field and in both cases I built it for fun cause I won anyway! Seriously pls post a replay of a high level Brit you faced and didn't pwn with a 25lb on the field.
Even the massive amount of OMA guaranteed by RCA is not really handy since you will never have enough mun to abuse it like it's possible in team games. Btw what do you mean by too fast? It has a 90sec cooldown and I believe the impact time is pretty much the same for the Stukka.

@Croms:
I think the problem for you lies in the Schreck nerf. Paks kill them fairly easy if they are guarded by Volks or Schrecked Grens. If I'd attack a PIV or a Ostwind with captured Schrecks I will lose as well. Your Pak will be on the field earlier than the first Crom and looking at the price of it, it will take him some time to get a second one. So while you can dominate his 400/70 achievement with a 320/0 (the Pak is 320mp right?) unit and a little support you'll already have on the field you can tech T4 and get a PIV or a panther which both pwn Brits...

@Churchill:
Difficult topic imo, without the supression it would easily be killed by Schrecks. It's an effective tank, no doubt about that, but not unbeatable (besides that it takes a shitload of popcap). It shouldn't be touched atm if you ask me.

@Lt:
Give him more HP (and don't let him being instant shot by Marders, Paks and Schrecks...) and I'd be fine with the switch but atm you have to have at least 2 Lts before one of them will eventually survive long enough to even get Vet2...

@retreat:
Hmm.. I've never seen a problem with that tbh, but if you wanna change the retreat system you should just change retreating to the Cpt, reatreating to your HQ shouldn't be touched at all.

@trenches:
Yeah right, the trench discussion again...
If you'd change it the way you suggest, it wouldn't be built anymore. I said it countless times already, it's a 450mp grave that cripples your early play...

ps.: Nothing about commandos?!^^

[Decker]

At first I will quote some guy from the gamereplays forum:

75%+ of the people posting on this forum play Wehrmacht the vast majority of the time.

There's a double standard here: only Wehrmacht buffs are good and anyone else getting buffs is OP.

Just ignore these trolls. I sometimes call them, "Whermacht fanboys."

I think it fits pretty good in this thread.

BUT: I must agree with you on 3 Points:

1. Bren carrier is a little bit to strong for the early game, its HP should be reduced
2. Stuart has to less HP for his mid game appearance, buff it
3. Leftenant kind of a freekill in mid and endgame, a little HP buff would be good here too(ok you didn't bring up this point ^^)

[PeterPeterson1]

This thread will be broken when Croat and Scotallio will appear

that was great!

I can't agree with all points but with a lot of them!

@riflenades: They should have a minimal range! (Stuh and AVRE should have them too)

@retreat:British retreat to often succesfully out of Atomicexplosions! Thats awesome! One man runs trough 3 MGs and 2 mines! If i retreat a 3 man health down PG squad i hope one man reach my base!

[SilencerPL]

@Moving HQ truck:
Dunno how many times it happened that I have to retreat my HQ cause the WM player managed to get a mg42 up near my HQ...

2 Tommies cant handle single MG-42 ? Im not buying it.

I think the problem for you lies in the Schreck nerf

The problem is - if one thing is being nerfed the other one should be buffed/nerfed. I had a StuG and Storm with shreck - the Crom just hyperdrived - circle strafed StuG- killed it and got away with 5% - no additional dmg like engine/gun. So PAK and a shreck isnt that problem for Crom.

I believe that allied tanks are less prone to 5% fugs, while axis have like 75% of engine dmg once hp drops to 50% or less. Not to mention that allies have tools to slow down axis tanks - stickies/button up.

Churchills - well they need to fix that retreating suppresion and maybe the gun has to good penetration against StuGs/P4s - Cromwells too.

Stuart

Stuart is fine - though the canister shot is too random - once it does nill other time it is like infantry rampager.

IIRC an upgunned BC takes 2 faust hits and a few small firearms hits and it's dead meat

Thats 70 ammo - plenty for non-armored carrier - Dont know why bren was made more resistant to faust. Jeep/Bike need 1 faust/stickie to be killed.

@riflenades:
You are joking right? They have an awful accuracy without double Lt

Single LT will be sufficient enough. And if the MG is in building - the better.

Trenches - only make them undeletable.

Commandos - sten just needs either reduced RoF or dmg. Right now it can masacre infantry far better than mp44 and thompson. And as it supposed to be in dmg from worst to best (smgs) - sten, thompson, mp40,mp44 in rifles - garand/lee-enfield/kar/g43 in LMGs - Bren/BAR/FG-42/LMG-42

[scoiatollo]

Depends on where you placed your HQ and how fast WE has his mg42 in range. If you are unlucky you'll never recover from that position.

Thats 70 ammo - plenty for non-armored carrier - Dont know why bren was made more resistant to faust. Jeep/Bike need 1 faust/stickie to be killed.

You'd have a point if a Jeep or a bike would cost 280/50/10, but they cost ~half of a BC... Oh wait it takes ~2 times more AT fire (namely Fausts) to take it out. Who sees a coincidence?

[SilencerPL]

Ah but you forgot about the costs for building rax/wq. Not to mention cost for upgrade to stickies/fausts.

how fast WE has his mg42 in range

Not as fast as brits can have 2 sections in place

[Devil2575]

Now its a commonly agreed fact in the top 100 player club that brits are OP

Great, but what about the other 30,000 people who play the game?

I personally don't care about the top 100 players. At lvl 7 as wher and lvl 5 as Brits there is no problem at all with balance IMO.

If all the changes you suggested were made then at lower levels of the game brits would be unplayable. I'm someone who plays Wher 50+% of the time ( the remaining 50 uis split equally between PE, Brits and US) at the moment I don't have any problem beating a brit player.

I cannot comment on higher levels of the game but as 99% of the people who play are lvl1 to lvl 10 bracket balance at higher levels is kind of irrelevant.

What do the leader boards show?

Are the high level brit players winning all the games?

I'd check myself but my home PC is fooked and I don't have the game on my work PC, supprisingly enough.

[scoiatollo]

As said that really depends on the map and how aggressive you are.

And pls, let's skip the annoying part where everyone begins to calculate how much their first unit cost. It's not like WE or US wouldn't build Rifles or would need it for upgrades and WE wouldn't build snipers, mg42 or volks...

[MagsX]

jesus guys... You would think that when you hang on these forums 24/7 you could at least read the topic and NOT POST when you dont know what youre talking about.
1v1 Brit VS Wehr TOP SKILL BALANCE.

the problem with trying to blance these games is all the what I call with the N-word posting on the forums all days along when you have no clue what proper micro does to units.

Oh yes - cromwell dies to a pak and a a churchill too really.. And do you think at the top level you just throw your tanks in front of the at-guns.

Riflenades are pure hell in high levels and yes with some micro they chew up mp40s like butter -- and an expensive butter since 50 ammu is a rare treat you could use to many other needed. things too in a 1v1.

Why would a good brit player let me around his 25 pounder with shreks?? I go there with a shrek squad and it ends up A killed and B the shreks end up in tommi-hands. great.

As far as ive talked to the top brit players a stuart is pretty bitch to micro since its so fast - it easily slides too far and you faust it so if other things are nerfed proper it could receive slight health boost.

A good player doesnt lose his bren carrier to almost anyhting and yes all the top brits agree its ridicolous with the upgraded gun.

etc.etc.
Guys if youre not over level 10 (and no level 10 brit just doesnt cut it since there are rather few very good brit players since most good players dislike playing them due to considering them OP. Even the good ones dislike playing them.. ask gunners for example..) then you just dont KNOW what micro does to units okay. Its nothing against you, but youre just in the wrong topic!!

the commando is good now. they still kick ass, but not too much.

This is just what is wrong with the balancing of OF, people with the top micro should do the balancing to fix it properly not the guys who post most on forums. Anyway read the post topic again pls. And yes if you want we can always play some 1v1s and Ill show you..
Also like I said earlier Id be happy with just some of the stuff getting a nerf, doesnt have to be all of it, allthough the best nerf would be to nerf everything slightly to avoid spamming few op units and abilities.

Oh yes good point PeterPeterson: The retreat bonus for brit units is a bit retarded -- a sniper NEVER hits, other units in pursuit rarely get anyone killed. This in combination with the hardest to kill units (big 5 men, loads of health-units) makes it so much easier to micro brits since you rarely lose a whole unit and much manpower thus. Compare to 3-4 men PE squads and 4-5-2 men wehrsquads with loads of less health and much more accuracy received when retreating. And why does the 25 ammu snipe always hit a retreating squad when the axis sniper never ever hits. FIX: more received accuracy in retreat, would force brit even to flank and things, not just rush in and kill everyhting and rush back out with 1 men squads perfectly safe.

REMEMBER TOPIC

[SgtWilson]

A couple of week ago, I checked the stats for the top 30 on the leaderboard:

Faction: Played, Won, Lost, %Won

Brit: 4831, 3607, 1224, 75%
Wehr: 5979, 4360, 1619, 73%

The game is balanced at 1v1 amongst top players - fact!

No matter how much whinging goes on about Mortar Pit or HQ Truck or Bren Carrier, the stats show that the effect of individual units is balanced out over a number of games.

[scoiatollo]

Oh yes - cromwell dies to a pak and a a churchill too really.. And do you think at the top level you just throw your tanks in front of the at-guns.

Funny though that Paks are probably 99% of their time camoued so how exactly are you supposed to know where or if there even is a Pak? Unless you have a hack or can predict the future there's no way in hell you can ever know where Paks are!

So let me get this straight, when exactly is the time you face riflenades? Early game it's a no go since you'll need brens for button up, mid game you should have either tanks (I'm thinking about the Puma) or you should already outnumber the British player in which case you can attack from multiple directions -> force him to retreat.

How can a Brit afford a 25lb anyway in a 1v1? Seriously I'd love to see a replay where this actually worked (at best not on Ango). You'll need AT so you gonna get a 17lb and/or Bofors first and by the time you'd have the spare MP/fuel (you'll need to build tanks if you want to compete with WE) the game will pretty much be over.

The thing the Stuart would need, would be a more consistent canister shot. After that it may need an hp buff.

BC can be lost fairly easy, camoued pak = dead BC. In T1 it's different but again, how long are you T1 and how often can you not scare a BC away and force him to use 35mun to repair itself? If you'd make it weaker it should get a cost reduction, if you reduce it's cost it gonna be too spamable.

As for recon shot: How big are the odds that a retreating squad passes in the shooting range of your (probably only) recon squad, you are seeing it and are reacting fast enough to shoot another unit?

If you wanna talk about 1v1 balance Brit vs Wehr why not have a look at some WE stuff as well? The instant supression of the mg42, or the free KT, or the ridiculous damage bikes deal? I got another one, your troops getting shot by an buttoned up vehicle that's driving out of it's range.

Imo British tanks shouldn't be touched as long as they don't have a viable infantry based AT...

edit: before you come again with your lvl, I'm around number 60 as Brits (1v1) and play this game since 1.71 so I know a little bit about this game...

[Devil2575]

jesus guys... You would think that when you hang on these forums 24/7 you could at least read the topic and NOT POST when you dont know what youre talking about.
1v1 Brit VS Wehr TOP SKILL BALANCE.

Yes but if your proposed changes were put into effect they would impact on all levels of the game.
So ok I may not know what i'm talking about when it comes to high level balance but I am entitled to comment on the fixes you have proposed.

I sometimes wonder if you high level players forget that we all payed the same for this game.

[Splitmonkey]

lol scoiatollo bike has insane damage, good one.

I think brits start with too much of an advantage anyways with no building to build and a free 450mp units with resources to buy another one plus a bren carrier.

[scoiatollo]

Compare their cost to their damage output, than it is ridiculous.
They butcher Lts, if used in pairs take on a recon squad with ease, can be repaired from the very beginning (so you won't lose MP)... Try them against Brits I think you'll be impressed...

[SilencerPL]

Compare their cost to their damage output, than it is ridiculous.
They butcher Lts, if used in pairs take on a recon squad with ease, can be repaired from the very beginning (so you won't lose MP)... Try them against Brits I think you'll be impressed...

Still Im not buying it that Brits cant have 2 tommie suqads faster than WH gets either bike/mg/volks.

[Devil2575]

A couple of week ago, I checked the stats for the top 30 on the leaderboard:

Faction: Played, Won, Lost, %Won

Brit: 4831, 3607, 1224, 75%
Wehr: 5979, 4360, 1619, 73%

The game is balanced at 1v1 amongst top players - fact!

I don't think we need to say anything else really. The figures speak for themselves.

How about this? Before anyone comments again in this thread on an individual unit and how it OP, explain to me how if the game is unbalanced the stats look very even?

I think that's fair.

[SilencerPL]

The stats arent just Brits vs WH - count how many games in top 30 were played brits vs wh and their Win-Lost ratio.

[Splitmonkey]

I bikespammed a few times before the patch in cover they dont do a thing and liutenants beat them so no it sucks.

[SgtWilson]

The stats arent just Brits vs WH - count how many games in top 30 were played brits vs wh and their Win-Lost ratio.

The Brit stats are most likely to reflect games against Wehr since there's more Wehr players than PE. The stats do show that Wehr are hardly at a disadvantage compared to Brits.

[MagsX]

Devil: does that say smt about the wehrmacht - brit balance? None.. Like SstWilson so aptly said. Also most of the wins and losses are ancient history. The streaks doesnt tell anyhting either since you can always face a good PE-player who can whoop your ass. Yokey does have a streak of 29 at the moment and hes the leader
.
Why dont you sciatiollo watch his replay pack, you can find it at gamereps, there you see how you can get a 25 pounder in 1v1 and you see riflenades too and you see how to manage mgs you see all the neat tricks. Now I know all the wehrmacht neat tricks but I cant beat him since his neat tricks are better. In fact I dont have a chance heh.. I jsut want that chance at least.

What comes to 99% of the players, the skill level does adjust itself in time and people always learn to play the factions, at the top you will see real skill balance not just oh hear we have a lvl 9 wehrmact player (whose much better in skill) vs a level 9 brit player (with just basic knowledge of turtling) and its "balanced". What I hear the team game balance is horrible too so maybe its just that the brits are op and the most brit players at low levels are wrong and play wrong. Umm what exaclty is wrong with making the brits a hard to master faction anyway. At the moment theyre easy to play, which has broken the game.

yes just what I mean scoia.. if you cant even anticipate a retreating units pathing and are too slow to snipe it then you dont know what proper micro does to gamebalance. if you lose cromwell to a pak maybe jsut maybe youre overextending it.. you can you know expect it and then advance carefully and flank etc.

I can make lvl 10 brits in a day, how about you make level 10 wehmacht and then give your honest opinion about brits in 1v1 vs wehrmacht. your über slot 60 with a broken faction doesnt mean anything and you know other people have played this game too and from the beginning.

I dont like the idea of nerfing wher units since the balance vs us is great - between high levels I win and I lose, but its always tight and no hampering is needed.

[SgtWilson]

Also most of the wins and losses are ancient history.

Not true. Brit stats can only be valid from the introduction of OF and there was a stats wipe a little while ago (can't recall when).

No one can say that the Brits are overpowered, based on these stats. There's a sufficiently large number of samples to even out any bias or any funnies in automatch.

Over the next month or so, you should start to see the % of Brit wins decline, once the effect of nerfs to Commandos, Firefly, Command Tank, Cromwell and Lt take effect. Not to forget the buffs to Wehr (e.g. Panther range, cost) and PE (e.g. Inf HT).

[Sturmer]

Agreed with MagsX 100%, I couldn't have said it better.

[Devil2575]

Now I know all the wehrmacht neat tricks but I cant beat him since his neat tricks are better.

Ok, so if this is the case and the reason he wins is because the brits are OP in comparison to Wher then can you beat him if you play brits?

[Sturmer]

Probably, yes.

[Pyro Paul]

Still Im not buying it that Brits cant have 2 tommie suqads faster than WH gets either bike/mg/volks.

time it takes for 2 tommy squads on any point on the map.
38 seconds to produce second tommy squad
+10 seconds to pack up truck
+20 secondsTraverse time (+10 seconds to get speed govener. 10 seconds to get anywhere on map.)
+ 5 seconds retreating squads to HQ truck while mobile.
-----
72 seconds to get 2 tommy squads anywhere on the map.


time it takes for Wehr to produce a single unit. (2 pioneer)
40 seconds Wehrmact quarters (Ideal situation- 60 seconds default build time, 14 seconds second pioneer time, double construction after 20 seconds of normal construction, cutting construction down to 40 seconds)
40 seconds 1 MG42
30 seconds Volksgrenadier squad
30 seconds Motorcyle
----
80 seconds for MG42
70 seconds for Bike or Volks.

this is just purely the construction. by the time you have this unit on the field the british player will have his squads and HQ truck on a point.

it will take 100 some odd seconds to get to the point the british player set up with an MG42 if you include build time and travel time. 90 some odd seconds with volks, and 80 some odd seconds with a bike. of which the british player will have 2 dedicated infintry squads there to over power your single item.

[SilencerPL]

So I was right - brits will field 4x the power of wermacht faster than wermacht can produce equal fire power of first british section.