[2.300] Pioneer vet 2

[Ano2]

At the second level of vet pios receive elite armour (Same as grens at vet 2) which I feel makes them a bit op, when combined with flamers. This problem is not so apparent in the US matchup (though exists) but against the Brits it allows the pios to cause possibly too much damage to tommies given their cheap cost. Therefore I propose to replace the elite armour with a 25% recieved accuracy modifier in the hope that it will balance them a bit better. Thoughts?

[Lunar100]

Well seeing as how flamers are the only really effective way of combating Brits early game atm I would have to disagree. Making emplacements more vulnerable to other forms of damage and i'll agree on changing the elite armor

[scoiatollo]

=) I think this is your first pro brit thread ever Ano^^

But on the issue, Vet2 Pios can be pretty annoying but can be countered (ie recon shot). I don't think that you'll need to change them since support Vet2 comes either late or he has no Inf Vet which means you'll have an easier time with your tanks that counter Pios

[FLXleGaulois]

=) I think this is your first pro WM post ever scoiatollo^^

just for fun

That's right that elite armor for pioniers is a bit ... eh! it's just pioniers ! But as most WM infantry and crew get infantry elite armor at vet 2 I don't know.

The most problem IMO is that veterancy level are sometimes unbalanced: Some cheap vet1 or 2 give much better bonuses than an expensive vet3.

[CroatNotBorat]

Three squads of vet2 pios do very nasty things even to upgraded rangers and commandoes, despite the piospam penalty. If one of those is a flame squad, they should be able to win.

That might be a little bit over the top.

Perhaps move pio elite armor to vet3?

[Tseng_Fox]

What would Vet2 pios get instead?

remember, they must be viable against brits, since they are one of the few things that damages inside trenches.

[Ano2]

Well I did suggest 25% less recieved accuracy Tseng...

[FLXleGaulois]

For 120MP pios are very strong units at vet 2 and 3 (+20%HP) but those teching cost are very expensive and you can't use them as main combat units because of piospam modifier so it is balanced I think.

[Tseng_Fox]

Well I did suggest 25% less recieved accuracy Tseng...

Its not bad... but isnt much considering the teching costs to get Vet2.

I think they are balanced as they are now. A squad or two with flames at vet 2 means they can finally allow trenches to be stopped.

[Falaris]

Uh, 25% received accuracy is better than elite armor - it works against everything, snipers, tank guns, artillery - and small arms. Elite armor usually gives 25% damage OR accuracy (and sometimes both) adjustment to only small arms.

But against tommies and their lee enfields it'd be a nerf, yes.

[Ano2]

Doh, okay well lets not make them better, but another suitible slightly less good subsitute.

[Falaris]

Pios and engineers aren't supposed to be that bad, actually - engineers can take on vanilla PG squads, for instance, although not comfortably. (Their MP's are surprisingly good against soldier armor).

So this might be 'working as intended'.

However, if you want a targeted nerf of pio's against tommies, reduce their flamer's and/or MP's effect against soldier armor by, say, 20%; this will not change them at all against americans, emplacements, etc.

[Catastrofizum]

I think they're pretty much right as is. You have to keep in mind that it is a 2 man squad. When one man drops the Wehr player is in imminent danger of losing the squad and will usually be forced into retreat.

[Decker]

Change the vet system: vet1 available at T2, vet2 at T3, vet3 at T4. => No more elite armor in early game.

[FLXleGaulois]

Erf... elite armor is minimum 60fuel, by that time you have BAR's or Upgraded bren carrier that will balance the thing.

No definitely let pioniers as all right as they are, focus fire on the flammers, don't spam emplacements and play agressively and their will be no great issue with that.