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Because no other race has anything compareable to how godly this is. A player who is not a moron, can easily remove his or her squad from harms way so effectively and efficiently.
All FoF should do is give all Eldar units a passive NOTICEABLE speed boost. Kind of like how fast the Arcon is.
Eldar has always been too powerful of an army, and it's time to balance them.
Either this, or just cut down the HP each unit has for balance sake.
I don't see either as an issue if you consider the effort needed to micro-manage them. Tab+F-ing every unit in your army isn't exactly time effective. Besides, Eldar need it because their ranged units are fragile and slow (without FoF active, of course).
#3
Pfft.Besides, Eldar need it because their ranged units are fragile and slow (without FoF active, of course).
Dark Reapers move at the same speed as SM tacs (and just about every non-jetpack or DE unit) when not using fleet of foot. They also possess an armour type that is, ironically, actually a little more resistant to most tier 1 weapons than tacs. They also have more HP than a tier 1 tac before bionics (and almost twice the HP of a shoota boy). To top that off they outrange every tier 1 weapon except CSM heavy bolters and IG grenades and have no setup time.
Having said that, I don't see any reason to change FoF as it currently is. It's worked this way for three and a half years now and there's no reason to really change it. It's a unique race trait that gives the player using it a powerful advantage if used right. But stuff it up and it's pretty unforgiving (crappy accuracy if you forget to turn it off when attacking for example).
White_Pointer
So because something worked for 3 and a half years that means it's right?
Does that mean Racism was right too? That would fall under your logic as well.
Did you honestly just compare the existence of FoF to the existence of Racism? Don't you think you might be taking this all a bit too seriously?
#6
That's a stupid analogy and you know it. Racism is wrong (and I really hope you aren't insinuating that I support it) and comparing it to something that happens in a fricken video game is ludicrous.
Unlike Racism, Eldar FoF in Dawn of War is not wrong. Seriously just about every race in SS now has some way to deal with FoF-ing Eldar units and while it's a powerful ability when used to it's full potential it's certainly not inheritely wrong. And if the Eldar player stuffs up...you cash in. Even the best of them can't continually toggle FoF on and off on all of their units throughout the whole game.
I'm not disagreeing with you that it's a powerful ability. I'm disagreeing that you need to "get rid of it", as you put it in the subject line of this thread. The only change I'd suggest is make the research a little longer than it already is (from 60 seconds up to maybe 80 seconds), and perhaps bump the price from 50/50 to something like 80/80, forcing them to fight for map control and actually build a generator before researching it. Well yeah they can still research it without a generator, but that means no early farseer or rangers. They then need to make a decision...do I want FoF, or do I want rangers/farseer?
White_Pointer
Nice comparison you got there.
Anyway fof, is stuck with eldar whether you like it or not, Its not fof that’s the problem, its the units (mainly rangers/fragons/reapers) who all have durability, speed and damage. Personally I would have a look at there durability.
lol n00b
hmmmm.... If you see it that way SM fans may argues saying a SM never misses a shot and can kill anything in almost one shot.
Guard fans may they how come they don't get billions of guards to sacrifice and so on. The ranting continues.
From what you started all I can say is you must have got owned like hell against an Eldar player and he was very good at microing while you were not.
If you cannot associate it with Heavy Metal then it is not WarHammer
My WarHammer 40000 Music Video v.1
I know this isn't really the right place to ask this, but since it's sort of on-topic, does anyone know how the 50% accuracy penalty for FoF is applied? I mean, FD have accuracy of 65%, does FoF reduce that to 15% or 32.5%?
Move speed bonus from FOF should be applied differently to different infantry....
Not a global 50%.
Okay thanksSo it does just halve the current value then. I thought it might act like Farseer Guide, where the 30% is added to the accuracy, not multiplied.
#12
It's not FoF that is the problem. Like Sparty said, it's the lack of "fragility" that Eldar units have that along with FoF that makes Reapers, Rangers and Fire Dragons look invincible. The Fire Dragons really have stupid amounts of durability for a T2 unit. They're practically immune to knockdown, have more morale than tacs, have 500-625 hp of heavy_high in Tier 2 and are simply the perfect econ harass unit. To be honest I wouldn't recommend too big a Hp nerf to Dark Reapers though, since Battle Sister Flamers really destroy them, especially when they try to flee. Although I do dislike the fact that up to 3 Dark Reaper squads can be acquired within 3 minutes. Then there is nothing some races can do bar harass for about 7-8 minutes until Tier 2 comes around.
I like this suggestion. It makes the Eldar player have to choose instead of having it all.Originally Posted by White_Pointer
YOU GOT OUTPLAYED DAMNED!!!!11!1!!!
-Eldar Player defending 120 guardsmen armour
I can't believe White Pointer actually bothered to respond to the racism post.
I like WP's suggestion for FoF cost/build-time.
I would also like to see Eldar "fragility." DE has shown that a race can have generalized fragility without becoming UP.
The problem with FOF is its a turn on/off option.If there has been a cool down like 20 sec people would be more carefull using the ability and It would make sense.Otherwise there is realy no draw back of this magnificent ability.
Forgeting units in FOF?Come on which profi player does that.
Watch some expert replays from DoW Sanctuary, I've seen even players like Servant and some others in there forget about it occasionally. Part of the problem comes from Lag, a tiny bit of lag sort of breaks up the F-Tab rhythm sometimes and alot of lag can leave the FoF icon grayed out for a little while, which is quite confusing. Also, when there's a huge amount going on, the fact that 6 out of the 60 units on screen have a little glow around them can be quite easy to miss...
IMHO I think that a cooldown on the ability would be enough after you switch off FoF. around 20s. It would still be a good asset when you would have to retreat fast but at the same time it would disable the dance of death with FoF.
i vote price hike up to maybe even 100/100... it is easily worth that much imo.
but i think the problem with eldar has less to do with FoF (a nice, unique ability that exemplifies eldars speed), then it does with their friggin HPs.
#18
Increasing FoF cost to 80/80 would just force the eldar player to go for reaper spam every game, would practically remove all other viable openers. I am more in favor of balancing the units rather than trying to change FoF around more. There is only so much you can change FoF before eldar gets run over by cultists/sluggas/scouts and whatnot early game.
Non mihi,
non tibi,
sed nobis.
#19
Or they could actually build banshees who easily outmelee cultists and sluggas...and it's not as if guardians can't outshoot scouts.There is only so much you can change FoF before eldar gets run over by cultists/sluggas/scouts and whatnot early game.
Besides, considering the majority of eldar players open with aspect portal->gen anyway my suggestion doesn't actually change their early game that much.
White_Pointer
Last edited by White_Pointer; 27th Apr 08 at 10:59 PM.
Rather than changing the way Fleet of Foot works, you could just limit it to units that actually need it. Basically, take FoF away from Dark Reapers and rebalance them accordingly.
a1ph4riu5: Except that would actually force the balance team to actually put away their raging hard-ons for the space elves for a few minutes and actually work on things. Which'll never happen.
Unless you point a gun on their head.... Tell your commissars to do it.
I'm still thinking of giving different move speed bonus according to infantry.
Those with good HP / long range / escape mechanism should receive less speed bonus.
While the rest get the current speed bonus.
"I would also like to see Eldar "fragility." DE has shown that a race can have generalized fragility without becoming UP."
Well DE vs eldar is the hardest match for DE. Because if DE aren't UP against other races it becomes really hard for them to catchup with those elves that outshoot them, move faster with FoF on and are tougher than them.
IMO that particular match shows that FoF+tough units is too much.
Last edited by tygereye; 28th Apr 08 at 11:54 AM.
I play IG quite a bit and FOF is extremely annoying, however having played elder aswell i can see it from both sides and FOF is a lot harder to use then a whole host of other abilites like soul powers, fighting juice etc
While it is a good ability you do need some micro skills to use it, and the better your skill the better the ability becomes, maybe it does become imbalanced if you have the required levels of unit control and keyboard skills, but if you don't it aint.
It's quite ironic really an imbalance bought about by having a set level of micro skill rather than just pushing a overpowered ability button, one for the no brainer fix list then as it's clearly an imbalance inconsistant with the rest of the imbalances in the game.
Fleet of Foot isn't the issue, as it's been stated previously. The units which have access to turbo mode are the root of the real problem and always have been. Eldar have always tended to be a bit more durable than one would assume necessary.
That being said, I'm going to pull a "fanboi" here and say they can stay like that as long as they'd like. /biased
---
Oh, sweet irony...Don't make me dig up those blackmail photos of you fapping to Guardsmen (along with half of this friggin forum community).
you need a basic level of micro skill to access eldar imba world of FoF... and some experience; its really not that much harder to micro - just more.It's quite ironic really an imbalance bought about by having a set level of micro skill rather than just pushing a overpowered ability button, one for the no brainer fix list then as it's clearly an imbalance inconsistant with the rest of the imbalances in the game.
and again, its something that really only becomes more and more obvious the better the players get... low and mid level players rarely have an issue with eldar and may even consider them "balanced"... but as soon as the players become better, there is just a point where the other races cant do any more while eldar still allows an increase in control and effectiveness. and this is the point where it gets interesting.
FoF is not gonna be changed in a patch. Its been practically unchanged since the games release. It's just too touchy to ... touch as it is.
Wait for DoW2 to see FoF changes.
It's kind of the same thing as Street Fighter 2. As everybody learned how to do fireballs and uppercuts with ease, Capcom weakened the moves and made them useful for space control and combos only.
Therefore, required-skill-for-use is not an excuse for imbaness.
Explain rampant Eldar favoritism in the patching process then, please. Like the host of issues that have been brought up since time immemoral regarding the Eldar and simply never addressed. You can go on about how said favoritism doesn't exist, but you'd be wrong.
Seeing you try to explain away said aforementioned favoritism should be good for a few hours of entertainment.
I'd just like to say that FoF sprayed my grandfather down with hoses, and chased him and his friends with German Shepherds. It's a good thing Kennedy turned it off.
I've always found it a hassle to use FoF. I sometimes wish I could toggle FoF for all my selected units at one go. It seems to make the Eldar unnecessarily harder to play. But once you get the hang of it (which I don't seem to ever), you'd be dominating easily.
You can (sort of), with three squads currently selected press:
F, TAB, F, TAB, F
in a sequence to toggle FoF on/off...
Oh I never once claimed the favoritism isn't there. I just found it rather amusing that one of the biggest IG advocates (and forum "poster boys") would be so snidely thrashing another race in such a manner. In fact, the above mentioned is quite the indicator of how big of a nerve I must have struck with what was only meant to be a simple joke.
The whole point is that bias exists in more places than just the developers. You can't even begin to tell me that you, just for example, aren't biased towards the bland "token human" race. Just like I'm a bit biased towards the "space elves" (which is ironic in itself given my normal hatred for all things elf). The only difference here is that the developer's supposed bias can translate into bad things in a game.
lol at this thread..
Let me explain:
1 - fragons were made so resistant to counter effectively knockbacks, because thats the eldar weakness: and its proved by the actual vogue made of hellfire spam
2 - for all the people that think they characterized well DE without making them UP i say: lolwut? actually DE are far from being UP at all, but moreover, why there should be a FoF research that give passive speed boost for Eldar when DE dont require it at all, still having lot of fast unit? (Think about DEW or warp beast, the fastest unit in the game..)
3 - try to play a game at a decent level as eldar with noticeable lag, and you'll see your chances of victory & your overall game quality being reduced. A lot.
In the end as someone said its better to adjust the single units instead of changing FoF, but bear in mind that DE are actually fragile, but unlike most of eldar units they have an awesome damage output (even if the range is closer...)
- Rem tene verba sequentur -
Actually, the issue I was poking at with the favoritism issue was the constantly-addressed Eldar issues that to this day have been largely ignored, like the Avatar Pop Bonus, FD LOLMASS, Webway Gate Spam, what have you, and how there is an inordinate number of QA testers who seem to be among the school of thought that Eldar needs to >>>> All.Oh I never once claimed the favoritism isn't there. I just found it rather amusing that one of the biggest IG advocates (and forum "poster boys") would be so snidely thrashing another race in such a manner. In fact, the above mentioned is quite the indicator of how big of a nerve I must have struck with what was only meant to be a simple joke.
The main reason I've advocated IG so much (And FYI, I usually play Chaos, like I do in TT) is mainly because they've been borked internally since day one, pretty much ignored on everything when it comes to balance (about 40% of the No-Brainer fix list for the IG was actually used). SS was the biggest step in the right direction pretty much ever, and they still have quite a large number of internal fixes to really be considered headed the right way (or at the very least, not mechanically-stupid).
Yeah, I did start the threadnaught, but look at the context. At the time we were dealing with the DC Necrons and Tau with their "I can shoot you from offscreen with sufficient firepower to melt your entire army" range. The reason a lot of people wound up so bitter from said thread and its aftermath is that it was essentially proven that promises from staffers (Fell_Hand's promise that our CS fixes were "going to be in 1.2" mostly) cannot be trusted in the slightest.
And as for me snidely thrashing the Eldar? I'm one of about 4 dozen users who do that here. It's pretty much universally accepted, if wholly unspoken, that Eldar are pretty damn OP by this point.
The joke was cute, I was just trying to shed some light on things in the process, good Narj. Don't misunderstand.
Why not just make FoF passive and give Eldar the foot speed of their Dark Eldar brethren? That still means both of them are faster than every other race's infantry.
Can anyone find anything wrong with Eldar losing FoF, while gaining the constant foot speed of Dark Eldar?
"And no, I am not a Necron. You mistake the slave for the master." - Mephet'ran, The Deceiver
Presumably because it means the Eldar wouldn't dominate with their awesome F Tab micro.
Here here! I agree!Because no other race has anything compareable to how godly this is. A player who is not a moron, can easily remove his or her squad from harms way so effectively and efficiently.
All FoF should do is give all Eldar units a passive NOTICEABLE speed boost. Kind of like how fast the Arcon is.
Eldar has always been too powerful of an army, and it's time to balance them.
Either this, or just cut down the HP each unit has for balance sake.
And while we're addressing the blatant imba of FoF, lets get rid of the Space Marine's being able to deep strike whatever they want. I mean OMG Deepstriking Dreads and every type of infantry and crap I mean that's just so freaking imba.
Not to mention how their Chaos counter parts get to be so good and fast and strong and tough at assault since you can turn their commanders and their sargent dudes into 1337 ubers and they gets to heal fast while they break you thanks to their stupid taint!
And how come Guardsman get to shoot at things from inside their buildings? Orks don't get to shoot at things from inside their building! D:
And speaking of orkz OMG0OMG wAi every ork building gotta be a turret? Tha's just imba!
And I don't get this stupid thing with Necrons being so tough and strong always getting back up I mean how lame is that? And aren't they supposed to be slow how come they get to teliport to bases and listening posts cause that's not slow that's very fasta n stupid!! MeGA F4Ilz!
And how come Tau get to outrange everything? Its not fair dammit! WE nEed to geT rid of d4 Tau guns! Make them the same range as Tac Bolters then it be fair! Get rid of tau commander too and replace him with something else cause a commander that pwns at range is stupid all commanders in game suppose to attack you at melee so make TC trade places with the Etheral!
Don't even get me started on the Faith Resource those lame Sisters of Battle get to have! It has *IMBAsauce* written all over it!
And why Dark Eldar buildings get to come up all different from everyone else? I try killing builder but it not help?! THATS BROKEN! Not to mention that they get a special resource two? ZOMG!!!
I agree that Flight of Foot has got to go, just like all these other things. Then things be balanced for sure and then finally this stupid game be fun finally!
~My point: FoF is their "thing" just like how every other race has a "thing". There are more pressing concerns than completely overhauling a race after we've removed their "thing". TheHolyDarkness Out~
Last edited by TheHolyDarkness; 30th Apr 08 at 5:19 PM.
Umm... Don't know why I'm posting I don't care what many people have to say about Eldar. I don't find the eldar reapers to be very strong at all. you can fof your happy ass off and you're still going to take a loss somewhere. They still have to stop and fire. comebine that with some melee or flame throwers and you can run them to the end of the map or all over the map who cares. A running reaper is a useless reaper. Let it keep running from melee or whatever else that's coming at it. Thats one less squad I have to put up with and my melee or whatever else can chase it around while I go attack something else. ahh wait sorc.. chains of torment no more reaper. wait... entangle, gaurdians take out reapers. wait snare traps, Damn that tau commander. wait assault space marines and librarian. ouch half a gib with chainsword to back it up. wait while you run away let me destroy your listening post. Wait scouts, sniped with 1 headshot kill. bet you like spending that 70 req to reinforce. DE primary archon ability. no more fof.. oh hell wait for that matter farseer can't use her abilities either. Necrons. deep striked flayed surround the squad. or hell those annoying wraiths that are about the fastest running unit on the board with phase shift.
What I'm trying to say is it may not matter how good this guy can run his units around the board what good is it going to be if he retreats and you're destroying his base. Then he's forced to come back. And if he runs you destroy something. what does he have to put more into? sacrafice unit to save base or run around to the next webway which can be found without even having to look for the damn thing. I'm far less forgiving then most people. And what I hate hearing all the time and is my primary example.... EXCUSES.
#40
FoF is never going to change until DoW2, assuming Eldar are even in the game and at the end of the day it's a moot point. It's a shame because FoF has been one of the biggest imbalances from day 1, anything with that kind of mobility is going to have exponential utility in the hands of a good player.
The last 2 posts are seriously lulzy though.
Chriss is that IG hater he wanted them to nerf everything about igs
I don't agree with changing FoF either, but yeah, those last 2 pro-Eldar posts just make Eldar players look bad.
Basically, Eldar needs some measure of their purported fragility, which is what FoF was supposed to offset from Day 1.
What do you think would be a good rework of FoF for DoW2?
I'm personally of the opinion that FoF would be better if Eldar units had both reduced accuracy and reduced health while FoF is on. It would be really cool as smart players would turn on their Eldar pursuers and deal double damage.
Can't... Stop... Laughing....
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Fleet of Foot mechanics seem to be a relic from earlier versions of Dawn of War where losing significant accuracy on the move was actually a trade-off(instead of expected as it is currently). Could another trade-off work? Small damage boost maybe?
I like FoF as it functions currently. I'm still of the opinion that it's not a problem with FoF per se, but simply the way Relic has "balanced" Eldar.
Look at DoWpro. Korbah didn't turn FoF into some timed ability. But you'll be hard pressed to say Eldar is OP in DoWpro (at least, the last time I saw it). Korbah made FoF a necessary mechanic for Eldar to survive.
@ Rocs:
LOL you're right. Didn't think about that... I guess FoF really is free now. LOL fuckin' Relic.
The really funny part, of course, is that the problem with FOF as it stands part in partial stems from the FOTM Fix, which was handled in a completely stupid manner all around, resulting in the current FOF mechanic being flawed on a very base level, even with it being a necessary mechanic all the while!
Mmm, I don't see a problem with FoF. Like said before, races can all counter it. Take my main one, the Tau for example. Simply get some snare traps set up in smart locations, and WHAM! They won't know what's coming when they get mowed down by plasma fire.
Play a race other than Tau and it becomes slightly more apparent, Fire Warrior... Orks for instance.
#49
FoF was, I believe, implemented as the intention was to make Eldar the 'pro' race in DoW. The extra micro coupled with the supposed fragility of the race was supposed to render the highly effective the hands of an expert but clumsy and weak in the hands of a noob. Unfortunately, the idea got lost along the way and the need for mega micro skills sort of evaporated when you allowed them to have 10 fire prisms or the dreaded reaper/BL mass of 1.3.
Since it became apparent that pretty much anybody intelligent enough install the game was intelligent enough to hammer tab-f throughout the match, they should have changed it to a cooldown ability. I never really understood why they didn't do that, but then I don't understand a lot of the shit about the way the game mechanics have been managed.
Yeah, big shootas behind banners pre-nerf were the only thing I had in this matchup. Unfortunately, now I don't even have that and can't last to the falcon grav tank + fire dragons wiping out my banners, while the harlequin annihilates any melee I had because the eldar is too busy to bother building cowshees that would have done the same.
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