[2.3] Connection between PG upgrades and PE teching?

[Tod]

Something just struck me when playing a game of CoH:
When I play Wehr, I am always trying to find a balance between spending fuel on Vet and on Tech. If I get too little Vet, my troops are less effective, but without teching, I lack better troops and especially vehicles.
Same goes for US - do I get Nades and BARs or do I build SD and MP? Do I get Stickies or try to reach the MP faster (and hopefully fast enough)?

But when I play PE, I never ever feel like spending fuel on the PG upgrades during the early-mid game - I just don't need most of them. Getting stuff like Field Craft or getting closer to your MP44/AC/PIV is never a real decision, you always tech up instead of upgrading. The upgrades just don't give you the options/power that teching up does, while in other factions they do.

Does anyone else have the same feeling - that a part of the insanely fast PE teching is the fact that there is no real need to spend fuel on other stuff, apart from an HT here and there? If PE was more in need to get its upgrades for PGs, might we see less straight tech-ups to the most advanced units they got?

[Znuff]

You got a point in that most of the upgrades arent quite worth it. But the problem lies mostly in that they cost more then they are worth. The two grenades arent nearly as good as the pineapples or stickies either.

But there are some things that can be worth it still. The squad upgrade is pretty good and the fuel costs for the HTs are far from insignificant. So there are some fuel sinks to pick from even for PE.

[PeterPeterson1]

I nearly never build PIV or Panther BG, but usually i never get my troups to run cause only 2 or 3 upgrades neccessary for running are usefull. the others are crap. A lot of Fuel and MP is required to tech up the troups and it is too expensive to get the running bonus.

If you tech for shrecks it is another techtree (PBG).

No other faction needs so much fuel for nearly no effect. Thats why the fuel is taken for marder, PIV, schrecks and PBG. Inf only gets group zeal, the leutenant, one kind of nades and at least, this is only required very seldom, the better repair which is part of the tank hunters and luftwaffe doctrine.

[Panzer Jager]

Inf only gets group zeal, the leutenant, one kind of nades and at least, this is only required very seldom, the better repair which is part of the tank hunters and luftwaffe doctrine.

You forgot Squad Sizes, which is extrememly valuable for an MP44 lover.
Tank Hunters do not get better repair, the ketten just gains the ability to perform the same repairs as Panzergrenadiers; with the advanced repair researched the ketten also gains it.

[Murton]

You make an interesting point, no other faction can make a clear run on tech without making an equally clear sacrifice to their early game offense.

This issue raises a lot of questions including "is this really a balance issue?" Unfortunately it's completely situational and therefore difficult to call either way.

Let's take possibility number 1. A teched PE vs teched Allies is a draw, PE has the strong units, Allies have access to the counter.

Number 2: Teched PE vs upgraded Allies. PE are bringing the stronger unit, but the superior base units on the Allies side will defeat the non-upgraded PG squads supporting that unit. I'd say it's a PE win, but at great cost.

Number 3: Upgraded PE vs teched Allies. PE fail, without something to take on the heavier Allied units, they're just meat to the grinder. Allied win, PE retreat and regroup.

Number 4: Upgraded PE vs upgraded Allies. Another draw, both sides infantry have comparable bonuses, battlefield situation and individual tactics will decide the victor.


A very simplistic view of the battlefield I agree, but I think this is one of those possible issues that has to be looked at from the ground up, and looking at it I'm not seeing a huge problem with balance to be honest. It just means being that little bit extra careful when playing vs PE, a lot of things about the PE inspire caution in Allied Commanders, it looks like their tech system is just another thing to be cautious about.

[Dryden]

PGs have good upgrades. But super-fast tech lets them skip good things for the sake of getting best things. Why bother with incendiary grenades when you can tech to MP44\AC? Why bother with AT grenades when you can get shrecks\ATHT?
If PE tech was as slow as US\WM are, then upgrades would be those small valuable things that make difference together - like they do for US\WM.

[hashinshin]

The difference is our upgrades suck.

We can spend a significant amount of fuel on getting faster repair... or just stack squads onto repairing a HT.

We can spend a significant amount of fuel to cap faster... or just never cap with PGs (unless its a strategic point)

We can spend a significant amount of fuel doing a lot of things, but our return is minimul at best.

Even LAAAAAAAAAATE game, is it better to get advanced repair or to just micro luftwaffe ground forces to repair... and get another MarderIII

And other people are right, the super americans or British can get their stuart/greyhound faster than we can get a panzershrek most of the time, we CAN'T waste time getting advanced repairs or defensive or whatever. If PE had a light AT option available early on without a significant investment (a whole new building) we would probably be more able to upgrade... even if they are overcosted.

Compare: Is it better to get another MarderIII or to cap faster with only PGens ? Keep your kittens alive and you can completely ignore this upgrade. Its NOT WORTH the effort, manpower, or fuel. In other words PE upgrades.