British, Post 2.3 patch

[AdmV0rl0n]

Hi,

Firstly, to Relic, thank you for an awesome game/engine, and all your work.

I've been playing through the patches. And my overriding observation is that the British player is getting nerfed. When that player actually gets a weapon working, it soon seems to get nerfed.

The British now seem to have the following:-
The Slowest Build capability.
The slowest infantry.
After the early part in game, the most useless Infantry.
The most in-effective infantry post tier 1.
The Tanks, Machine Gun nests, Artillery, and AT now fire chocolate bullets. At least you used to be able to build Fireflys, and they could tangle, but not now. The 17 Pdr there and AT has been watered down.

Removing the ability to land Gliders in enemy base areas was not enough, you nerfed the commando soldiers more as well. Not enough, you nerfed the demolitions as well.

The latest weeze in game seems to be to build many walking Stuka's. These are easy to reach, and you get there faster than the British can get into Arty, nullifying one of their supposed 'advantages'. Now the Brit can, if playing against any valid player find walking stuka artillery raining down on him, and he is still trying to build his first 25Pdr.

Other fun? British Tanks now die on single hits from the Walking Stuka's.

Other areas? How about trenched troops being useless? I had two units in trenches, and one unit of Germans walks up and just tosses Grenades in there. No suppression, no price. Was the Lee Enfield really this bad, no I don't think so.

I can live with some of the nerfing. But seriously, if you are going to nerf the things to the point where you *can't* use them, they may as well not be in the game. I don't mind the British Inf being the slowest. I don't mind them being killable in a trench, but at least let them have rifles that do some damn damage.

In trench also, British 'Abilities' are unusable. You can't select Sniper or other options when in trench. Officers in Trench or House can't use their abilities. What an Officer is incapable of calling artillery down because he is trenched?

The command points required for Royal Artillery and Royal Engineers are now too high given other factors in game. (Artillery is behind the walking Stuka's now..)

I'd also like the game to have a bit of a modification brought in.
Units that have Rifles should be slow firing, but accurate, and effective at range. The game right now can have two bolt action rifled units shooting at each other, and everyone is missing. (and I mean in the general sense, not merely from the British Player angle).

Units with SMG weapons should get deadlier as the range closes in.

And all Inf units should be suppressed more, and suffer more when facing machine guns.

But, in ending, Relic, if you do nothing else, Please don't Nerf the Brit any further. I can live with it as it stands, but further nerfing is not required!!

[PeterPeterson1]

LOL, could someone close this thread. This is ranting. Join date April 2008 with one post. Someone must make a joke.

LOL Nice try!

Edit. Now I read it twice. I have tears in my eyes.

[Ano2]

Half the stuff he says doesn't even make sense.BTW whoever this is, if your an alt account, the admin will trace you and ban your main account. Therefore I strongly advise you delete this ranting nonsense now.

[Reverie]

Try playing the other factions if you feel Brits have it hard.

[Ano2]

My favourite bit:

Units with SMG weapons should get deadlier as the range closes in.

[PeterPeterson1]

NO, the best:

The latest weeze in game seems to be to build many walking Stuka's. These are easy to reach, and you get there faster than the British can get into Arty,

EASY to reach!

[AdmV0rl0n]

I post a comment. Yes, I am new. Are you so fearful of someone commenting that you have to start shouting for a ban?
I have no other account, so you can knock of that bleating.

As for this comment :-
NO, the best:
Snipped.

If you want to talk about the points, fair enough.

[PeterPeterson1]

Before you post something, read some other threads. Brits aren't UP. They have many abilitys and units which could provide an OPness against wehrmacht and they are not up against PE.

There are a lot of players which are angry about USvPE in 1v1 which i could understand but even there i have to say it isn't as bad as they want us to tell. But everything you describe isn't true.

Brits in teamgames are a hell of OP by sharing the ress. In 1v1 they could deal very vell with PE and Wehr.

I don't understand you.

[Supernaut]

If you think Brits are UP, you've just been outplayed.

[Decker]

There are only 2 things that bother me when playing the Brits. First their lack of mobile AT until they reach Fireflys and second that you're forced to play them the same way everytime. A little more options in gameplay would be cool.

[AdmV0rl0n]

"Before you post something, read some other threads. Brits aren't UP. They have many abilitys and units which could provide an OPness against wehrmacht and they are not up against PE.

There are a lot of players which are angry about USvPE in 1v1 which i could understand but even there i have to say it isn't as bad as they want us to tell. But everything you describe isn't true.

Brits in teamgames are a hell of OP by sharing the ress. In 1v1 they could deal very vell with PE and Wehr.

I don't understand you."

I probably did not make myself entirely clear then. I was adding an observation, rather than a rant.

What specific things I said don't you understand? If you cite them, I'll try my best to explain a bit more.

[DrCloud]

Going to try to reply to this without quoting every paragraph, since that will just be ugly.

Commandos have been nerfed a bit but are still pretty amazing, so to complain about them isn't a very good start.

Walking Stukas are not easy to get, since they require T4 and cost 150 munitions each.

I've never seen a British tank die to a single hit from a stuka, not even a Stuart. They shouldn't really be sitting there and taking it anyway.

Trenched troops are effectively indestructible except against a few things. Sadly for you, a grenade is one of those things. As for the "no suppression, no price" comment - well, sorry, but the grenade actually cost more than your trench did. If you want suppression, build an MG nest.

Abilities being unusable when garrisoned isn't unique to the brits. I'm pretty sure the Wehr officer (god bless him in all his uselessness) can't use his abilities when bunkered up either. Important abilities such as AP rounds, medkits and button up work fine though, so live with it.

I don't see what command points have to do with walking stukas. If you can't afford to get supercharged rounds or whatever before stukas are appearing, then perhaps you need to get out and kill more stuff instead of playing Sim City with emplacements.

Rifles generally DO act the way you say you wish they did, although the Rifleman M1 is pretty horrible at range. SMGs also DO get deadlier when you close in.

Suppression is fine. I feel that infantry already "suffer" plenty versus machineguns, except when Rangers with their uber armour and fire up come into play.

Edit: I forgot the final paragraph, where I do actually agree with you to an extent. I would much rather see the PE get some much needed attention (read: a thorough beating with the nerf stick) than the Brits getting yet another load of cut-backs.

[PeterPeterson1]

Firstly, to Relic, thank you for an awesome game/engine, and all your work.

Okay

I've been playing through the patches. And my overriding observation is that the British player is getting nerfed. When that player actually gets a weapon working, it soon seems to get nerfed.

Few of your nerfs were fixes to decrease the ImbaNess.
New BC is buffed a lot. It is hard to counter with Wehr.

The British now seem to have the following:-
The Slowest Build capability.

Don't think so!

The slowest infantry.

Reconsquad, lieutenants (all inf in the near), and all types of commandos aren't slow. Heroic charge let them ignore MGs. An ability no axis side has.

After the early part in game, the most useless Infantry.

Still usefull in lockdown some sectors. Piats in trenches are a nogo for every tank!

The most in-effective infantry post tier 1.

Brens serve vell in late game too

The Tanks, Machine Gun nests, Artillery, and AT now fire chocolate bullets.

This isn't in my game!

At least you used to be able to build Fireflys, and they could tangle, but not now.

You need a bit more micro and you have to use the command tank which is needed to build for the FF

The 17 Pdr there and AT has been watered down.

17pounder is a very efficient emplacement!

Removing the ability to land Gliders in enemy base areas was not enough, you nerfed the commando soldiers more as well. Not enough, you nerfed the demolitions as well.

Commandos are still very very good as AI. demos aren't nerfed!

The latest weeze in game seems to be to build many walking Stuka's. These are easy to reach, and you get there faster than the British can get into Arty, nullifying one of their supposed 'advantages'. Now the Brit can, if playing against any valid player find walking stuka artillery raining down on him, and he is still trying to build his first 25Pdr.

They are never easy to reach! They are tier 4 wich needs a lot of fuel! You could build Arty with the first sapper squad!

Other fun? British Tanks now die on single hits from the Walking Stuka's.

WHAT?

Other areas? How about trenched troops being useless? I had two units in trenches, and one unit of Germans walks up and just tosses Grenades in there. No suppression, no price. Was the Lee Enfield really this bad, no I don't think so.

Nades kill guys in trenches! With a vickers behind they might be supressed?

I can live with some of the nerfing. But seriously, if you are going to nerf the things to the point where you *can't* use them, they may as well not be in the game. I don't mind the British Inf being the slowest. I don't mind them being killable in a trench, but at least let them have rifles that do some damn damage.

Well you could throw your own arty at this trench killing all arround but do near no damage to the trench: this is imba!

In trench also, British 'Abilities' are unusable. You can't select Sniper or other options when in trench. Officers in Trench or House can't use their abilities. What an Officer is incapable of calling artillery down because he is trenched?

Every ability which needs manuel selection didn't work garisoned! in any faction

The command points required for Royal Artillery and Royal Engineers are now too high given other factors in game. (Artillery is behind the walking Stuka's now..)

2CP and you have high range for mortar and arty. CPs too high?
there are doctrines which need 4 to 5 more CP!

And all Inf units should be suppressed more, and suffer more when facing machine guns.

Vickers suppresses with a range of 45!

But, in ending, Relic, if you do nothing else, Please don't Nerf the Brit any further. I can live with it as it stands, but further nerfing is not required!!

I hope they nerf some abilitys. like sharing ress.

[AdmV0rl0n]

In reply:-

"Commandos have been nerfed a bit but are still pretty amazing, so to complain about them isn't a very good start."
Yes, they are pretty amazingly expensive.

"Walking Stukas are not easy to get, since they require T4 and cost 150 munitions each."
You missed some info there. Their build time is 30 secs, recharge is what 60 secs? and their manpower is 220.
The British Build time for Art is what? 2 Mins? The cost is 450 man, and 75 munitions, and they are immobile. And they die very rapidly under walking stuka rain.
The requiring T4 is valid, except for one thing, The artillery on the brit side can't live with walking stuka's until Royal Artillery is selected *AND* at least what, 9 Command points is used.

Even then, as an online friend said as he laughed his ass off, the British arty 25 Pdr makes a great noise as it fires, and the shells travel slowly across the screen as the Stuka's simply run away laughing, with plenty of time to spare. The only ARTY that actually works in this regard is actually RA, because the other doctrines have Arty that is out ranged by the damn Stuka's.

"I've never seen a British tank die to a single hit from a stuka, not even a Stuart. They shouldn't really be sitting there and taking it anyway."
That is something I will look into more.

"Trenched troops are effectively indestructible except against a few things. Sadly for you, a grenade is one of those things. As for the "no suppression, no price" comment - well, sorry, but the grenade actually cost more than your trench did. If you want suppression, build an MG nest."

I don't mind people talking about this - but you can't be serious. Any British unit in a trench is burned out or grenaded. I now play with people who panic at ever stage - they are so fearful now the primary concern about trenches is hitting delete. The upgraded Pioneers fry a trench, that's before we talk about grenades. And I said that troops in the trench lose all special ability, the officer can't even use Artillery from there. As for your fear of the trench, I have no idea why, you can walk 3 pioneers upto a fully loaded trench, stand there for 5 minutes making a BBQ, and walk away without even a scratch. Its a new meaning to 'Tommy Cooker'.

"Abilities being unusable when garrisoned isn't unique to the brits. I'm pretty sure the Wehr officer (god bless him in all his uselessness) can't use his abilities when bunkered up either. Important abilities such as AP rounds, medkits and button up work fine though, so live with it."
In that case, then fair enough. As I said, it was observational. All units should retains their abilities IMHO, but its open to discussion, and people will all have their own view.

"I don't see what command points have to do with walking stukas. If you can't afford to get supercharged rounds or whatever before stukas are appearing, then perhaps you need to get out and kill more stuff instead of playing Sim City with emplacements."

Yes, I might like to do that. But as I said, my cheapest INF unit, officer aside costs 320 Manpower. And that's not available till the second truck. The initial cost of 450 limits this anyway, and *as* I said, they are the slowest unit in INF terms. They walk around with their feet in treacle. Its not just that. The build time is long as well.

Compare that to German Grenadiers - 30 sec build time and a cost of 300. Or even Pioneers, who while weak are churned out at 120 Man, and 14 sec build time.

As for the rifles, SMG and suppression, that was a general comment, rather than British - and I am sure everyone has a view..

[Rascal1974]

Just a heads up AdmV0rl0n, Saying Brit is UP is not OK in here...be prepared for your views to get taken apart......... bit by bit, analysed by the experts then thrown right back in your face.

Saying wehr is UP..now that is OK you'll make lots and lots of freinds and fit straight in

anyway

I feel the same way mate.

I play mostly Brits but have tried quite a few games as Wehr and PE to get a better feel and some ideas etc. I find both wehr and PE much more forgiven and have a wider scope for alternative strategies and counters. Early game,mid game and late game.

I cant help getting slightly frustrated when i see numerous posts "Trenches OP", "Resource sharing OP","Cromwell OP", "Bren OP" and the list goes on.

Some of the above there might be a valid argument for, others clearly not, if some very weak areas where addressed, survivability of LTN and almost impossible vet, late armour no match up especially against high Vet. Id be more inclined to see some of the other areas changed.

I find the Brits the hardest to play, the slightest thing done wrong or you make the wrong call early on your seriously on the back foot from a few minutes in.

Lose a LTN
Park the HQ in the wrong area (get caught out by an MG in a building or rushed early on)
You have to anticipate what the opposition will do, spam Pio's, spam grens, bike spam, spam scout cars,Stugs and you have to try and pre-empt some of this. If you get it wrong and build the incorrect units your on the back foot even more all this combined with the inferior capping power of tommy's.

The only match up i find close to being balanced is 2 vs 2 Yank/Brit combo. 1 vs 1 is very tough.

These forums don't give a fair spread of views either, just for the simple fact there's more people playing certain factions and perhaps some more vocal than others, so the forum gets hit by the majority. If there's 10 posts saying the Bren is OP and only 1 saying the LTN needs to be able to soak up more damage..who's got more of a case to answer in the quest for fair balance? You'd hope neither, Relic should use its own internal testing before hand to prove out the claims and back this up with statistical game data, if all the factions where equally represented in the forums it would be easier and fairer, Its far from that.

Relic did nerf the Brits last time and buffed other areas, i just hope the nerfs were justified and not just because of the continually whining here. As i say you cant take data/feedback from this forum as it doesn't represent the factions fairly or evenly.

Best keep our fingers crossed for next time round and hope the majority doesn't get its own way through over zealous and knee jerk balance complaints.

Must be an easier way to balance up the factions fairly? all the forum proposed nerfs are subjective and 80% are quite frankly unfounded and complete bollocks............. be good to have some black white statistical results. That wont happen.................................. these forums would be like a morgue and you'd find a massive influx of people changing to the best faction.

[iaguz]

So if we were to nerf the grenades and flame's effectiveness against trenches then what should we use to counter them? These are the ONLY counters to them.

Also note that if pioneers come a-running in then you can select your infantry inside the trenches (select the trench and select the Infantry Section icon at the bottom of your screen and right click the pioneers). Pioneers are very brittle little squads, and cannot take much punishment before having to retreat or die.

Your infantry sections cost so stinkin' much because it is to balance their effectiveness in the early game. Later on it is a lot harder to find that 450mp for the infantry sections, so you should get as many Tommy's as you want early on (3 or 4 squads) and try to never lose them. Considering that they are tough as nails, and that they have nigh invulnerability imbued upon them when they retreat, this is fairly easy. Also invest in CCS's to maybe get a few more squads later in the game.

But remember, the Key to British infantry and their successes all revolve around the LT, his veterency and whether he is still alive.

Commando Gliders still have that fucking ridiculous unit crushing bug (as I recall, haven't been seeing much Brits as of 2.300 what with all the USA I've been playing). That's almost worse then the bastards inside!

[AdmV0rl0n]

So if we were to nerf the grenades and flame's effectiveness against trenches then what should we use to counter them? These are the ONLY counters to them.

Also note that if pioneers come a-running in then you can select your infantry inside the trenches (select the trench and select the Infantry Section icon at the bottom of your screen and right click the pioneers). Pioneers are very brittle little squads, and cannot take much punishment before having to retreat or die.

Your infantry sections cost so stinkin' much because it is to balance their effectiveness in the early game. Later on it is a lot harder to find that 450mp for the infantry sections, so you should get as many Tommy's as you want early on (3 or 4 squads) and try to never lose them. Considering that they are tough as nails, and that they have nigh invulnerability imbued upon them when they retreat, this is fairly easy. Also invest in CCS's to maybe get a few more squads later in the game.

But remember, the Key to British infantry and their successes all revolve around the LT, his veterency and whether he is still alive.

Commando Gliders still have that fucking ridiculous unit crushing bug (as I recall, haven't been seeing much Brits as of 2.300 what with all the USA I've been playing). That's almost worse then the bastards inside!

You say the solution is to get 3-4 squads early in game. To put this in context, what you are talking about, because there is no choice here, is 1800 Manpower if you have 4 squads.

But YOU know, as well as I do, the Brit is forced to send out LTs alone to do Capping, its the only 'cheap' (Hahaha, I use the word sparingly) unit they can pick. The slow build time means that Invariably you'll have 2-3 LTs and one squad trying to get enough map to survive.

Somewhere in that built time, if you build squads instead, you need to find the res to buy your LT. Now while you are spamming squads at this build time, and cost, you have no AT ability at all. The Truck is required for this, and its the only place you can build anything. S L O W L Y.

And god forbid you decide to use the one real advantage, and move the truck. Its a useful - no, it can be devastating, but for every second your truck is not 'set up', you are losing already heavy build time penalties.

The ORIGINAL costs applied to the British make sense. But they don't make sense if you nerf them. They already had these limitations.

[Clawg]

2-3 LT???
Invest 35 munition and you have a fast recon squad.
In addition you have the med center.

The only thing you have to watch closely is your LT. If you loose him you loose your experience. That can be devastating.

On the other hand, if you have a lvl 2 or lvl 3 lt your force is nearly unstoppable

[AdmV0rl0n]

"2-3 LT???
Invest 35 munition and you have a fast recon squad.
In addition you have the med center."

If you don't make LTs - your capping ability is very low (due to build time and cost, and the only way to increase the speed to reasonable is recon? Upgrading to the Recon Element also reduces the fighting ability of the Tommy squad below that of an unupgraded one.

"The only thing you have to watch closely is your LT. If you loose him you loose your experience. That can be devastating."

And how do you not use him apart from running him back to base? Ahh, you want me to walk him round with the slow unit, right, thus crippling the cap totally. Awesome.

"On the other hand, if you have a lvl 2 or lvl 3 lt your force is nearly unstoppable"

Given the incredible costs, I should bloody hope so.

[Rascal1974]

I'd like to see the Ltn being used as easily as its made out sometimes "just keep an eye on your ltn".

Also like to see some replays of ltn's remaining alive long enough to match vetted axis troops, late to mid game. I dare say it does happen but its ridiculously hard.

The pathing is shite he tends to do his own thing and subsequently gets whacked allot of the time, gets focused fire on, he drops way to easy and most of the time is about as useful as a chocolate fire guard, unless you have your eye on him 24/7 and dont bother with anything else.

[baionetto]

Go home plz, u are crazy...

[Rascal1974]

Go home plz, u are crazy...

Good idea, as for crazy..........maybe

Still not as crazy as that fat leather clad mincer you got on your profile

[Leobardis]

I'd like to see the Ltn being used as easily as its made out sometimes "just keep an eye on your ltn".

Also like to see some replays of ltn's remaining alive long enough to match vetted axis troops, late to mid game. I dare say it does happen but its ridiculously hard.

don't use him to shoot. keep him behind buildings and other large objects so he can provide his nice aura without exposing himself to enemy fire. putting him in a building and having the other units go out front of the building also helps.

also, DON'T use that 'attach' button.

[baionetto]

dont like wermacht officer ?

[Misterwight]

Vorlorn, I think your original post is pretty funny, and I disagree with almost everything you have to say. Here are a few tips though, that being said:

Brits don't need to cap much. Due to the way they gather resources, you don't have to control half the map to stay competitive with your opponent. Stake out a couple of medium/high resource points and defend them, and don't worry so much about the rest. For that, you don't need more than one Lt. or your original recon squad.

Also, the recon squad upgrade may lower the unit's anti-infantry power, but the sniper shot more than makes up for it. If you're fighting grenadiers of any kind, be they Wehr or PE, one shot is all you need to guarantee that you'll win that engagement. A bargain at its price.

[daroach1414]

Brits don't need to cap much. Due to the way they gather resources, you don't have to control half the map to stay competitive with your opponent. Stake out a couple of medium/high resource points and defend them, and don't worry so much about the rest. For that, you don't need more than one Lt. or your original recon squad.

Ya...you do that as a brit and the wehr or PE opponent will like you very much for allowing them to tech up ultra fast. Every faction is forced to cap as much as possible. One, to help your teching, and two, to slow down your opponents teching. A fact of the game.

[Ano2]

Yes daroach, but you really only to decap and go for cutoffs. 2 muns and 2 fuel is enough to keep your teching competetive.

[Leobardis]

Agreed with Ano2: decapping is important as brits, capping is not once you have the high points.

[troglodytejb]

I just want to jump in to address the "Useless endgame infantry" point.

Let me introduce you to "Button Up." Keeping Tommies useful since 1942.

Seriously, Button Up + 17 Pounder = Dead KT or Jagd.

[Rascal1974]

Brits don't need to cap much. Due to the way they gather resources, you don't have to control half the map to stay competitive with your opponent. Stake out a couple of medium/high resource points and defend them, and don't worry so much about the rest. For that, you don't need more than one Lt. or your original recon squad.

If you're fighting grenadiers of any kind, be they Wehr or PE, one shot is all you need to guarantee that you'll win that engagement. A bargain at its price.

I just want to jump in to address the "Useless endgame infantry" point.

Let me introduce you to "Button Up." Keeping Tommies useful since 1942.

Seriously, Button Up + 17 Pounder = Dead KT or Jagd.

What game are you playing lol, certainly not the Brits

Thats it race to the high fuel of ammo, get rushed early on or get pinned by an MG in a building. Easy. Let axis control the rest and tech up very quickly with shreked grens/flamers/panthers/stugs, you'll have no problem just sat there like a sitting duck building a few emplacements.

And then when that lot of combined vetted arms rushes maybe with a Jag or KT dont worry help is at hand, a squad of Bren Tommys and a single 17 pnd'er walk all over a KT or Jag. Focus fire on the squads of grens ripping through emplacements and Hq's like a knife through butter, snipe a few flamer pio's. Shrug off the vetted Mp44's they barely scratch the surface against tommys and Ignore the rocket artillery raining down......... it couldnt hit a barn door.

if your not wiped out by the first wave fear not your LTN would of miraculously survived, cowering behind a brick wall or sitting in a shed knocking one out. Whats all the fuss about? surely we need to concentrate on the real issues like shared resourcing or that OP bren

Tut Tut!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bonnet]

Closed because of a ton of trolling and flaming and because the original poster needs to read the balance issues guidelines.