HAHAHA Expert AI is so annoying

[dark frontier]

http://screenshot.xfire.com/screensh...86171fcbd5.png

Was playing a game with some mates the other day, I was playing a human (who was panzer elite) and an Expert AI (who was wer)

The human was facing me, the AI my ally

The Ai proceeded to fight both myself and my ally at the same time, and sent that blob of MG42s at me

I almost fell off my chair

[Melonplant]

Awesome.

Bet you couldn't recover from the sheer anti infantry power of a mg42 blob huh?

[CrimsonFury]

I have noticed since the last patch or 2 werh seem to spam MGs alot.

[PeterPeterson1]

Oh my god. What a well organized team with combined armes! ^^

[Skyline Pete]

I just played an hour long skirm game as US vs PE that resulted in nothing but Hetzer spam =(

Hard to take them out on the particular custom map I was playing, kill one and 2 more showed up. Got to the point the AI had 0 infantry on the map. I was relying on 1 squad of AB, one Vet 3 Riflemen with a panzershrek and a vet 3 M10.

Shat my pants when the Jagdpanther showed up but a lucky sticky resulted in immobilsation just as he was driving off for repairs.

[Kublai101]

Hiya Cartho


That was insanely annoying and ridiculous (though i managed to obliterate that MG blob with a single mortar about 2 seconds after that screenshot was took). There was also a few more MGs nearish to my base

[Susurrus]

Maybe he was worried about Rifleman spam? MG spam does seem to be getting common for AI.. As does tank spam.. Was playing with a wehr comp ally the other day, who ended up with about 8-10 armoured vehicles (mostly tanks/panthers...)

[thesaddestday]

I felt so robbed in a recent skirmish... I saw a bunch of mg42's and thought to myself oh boy ... well I went to counter the ridiculous number of mg's and next thing I know there are P4's, a Panther, and Puma's charging me like there was no tomorrow. Quite unexpected.

[karvajalka]

AI isnt working too well. Was playing Hill 331 as US, annihilation, had 2 expert brits on my side, against 2 expert PE and 1 wehr.

Basically, i destroyed about 90 of axis armored units alone with 3 squads of vet 3 paras and couple AT guns here and there + whole lot of inf. My british friends killed about 60 units all together during that game.

It looked like bug. At some locations, AI would send their armor, and when they get there, they stay there, not doing anything usefull unless i went there my self. Coinsidently, my paras caused axis to send their armor behind their HQs because thats where from i was raising hell into their base. I moved my paras behind other HQ, leaving tanks behind. Later most of axis bases were destroyed and pop cap looooong time ago spent since they had massive amounts of tanks behind their HQs and no pios/PGs to repair HQs.

This hapened to my brit buddies too. Basically both brits stacked all of their armor on forrest area, in southeastern corner, hugging strategic point where fighting was strong at 1 point, doing nothing.

[Monty86]

What I didn't know until recently is that the friendly AI responds to the three commands you can give in multiplayer; i.e. 'attack here', 'defend here' and 'capture here'. This helps late in games when there tend to be loads of units sat doing nothing. When you click 'attack here', I think it tells all firendly AI units to 'attack move' to that point or something, since massed blobs of friendly units will converge there. A downside is that once it's there and it's destroyed whatever was there, it will sit there and do nothing unless you tell it to do something else.

[armen]

any AI is weaksauce...

[Ambient]

no the AI in THIS game is TERRAFUCKINGBAD!

[PaLLeRo]

Thats nothing, I was playing Against Expert AI. And i was about to launch a Assault against the Enemy. And then he attacked me whit a Blob of MORTARS!!! I almost laughed my ass off.

[bottenbreker]

now there's a force that can deal with ranger -, AB -, PG - spam

[Flip_Lx]

does the expert us still spam 57mm?

[Melonplant]

Yes! I had an ostwind and I tried to drive behind a 57mm, only to be shot by a 57mm behind that. I desperately tried to flank THAT 57 mm and got behind it just as I got a destroyed engine.

Then got shot by a third AT gun covering that one.

AI is a bit paranoid with it's support weapons. It'd be nice to see some volks some time.

[ebevan91]

that's nothing.......... Wait until they start spamming StuHs. Or Hetzers if they are PE.

[(Undecided)]

I also notice that when the Wher and PE AI gets call-ins they stop building all other units. Period.

There is only so much five StuHs can do. Especially since the AI won't build pioneers anymore.

[Supernaut]

Pity the AI doesn't get harder, just more resources. *sigh*

Had a couple of games against expert AI yesterday, good fun annihilating all its spam , of the most useless kind. =/

Can't just be me looking for vaguely intelligent computer opponents can it?
Had an idea about making AI smarter in games generally but I'll use CoH as an example.

Say every human vs human match is recorded in the same way that replays are saved - such that the different clicks / build orders / troop movements etc are recorded in a text file. When the AI is being developed it uses many of these different text files to help make its decisions based on what it knows about the current state of affairs.

For example; AI encounters an MG, checks through the files, reads what movements humans made on that map/area/whatever, then tries to emulate it - in this case flanking the MG.

Probably would take a crap load of coding and I have no real idea of how it could be implemented haha, just putting out ideas. ;P

[Yob]

The comp always spams the counter to what you use the most of. Try building about 6 snipers, all you will fight will be riflemen and jeeps. they just wont tech up until you do. The AI is purely reactive. It just sends out the best counter to what you have most of. Build tanks, 57mm will be everywhere. Build inf, pumas and stugs will be around. The only difference seems to be that they prefer callins over normal tanks. Which is why you can have a whole army of hetzers.

[PMD]

Those "attack here", "capture here", "defend here" signals do not appear to work a lot of the time. I've had the AI many times get stuck on the map somewhere and no amount of clicking would get them to move. They also do not appear to want to enter the enemy's base to finish them off. The will just wait outside the border of it.

[Cpt Otto]

lol you could seriously attack a base with just them.

[(Undecided)]

Pic

Sherman: "What does that moron Priest thing it's trying to do?!"

Yeah, I know it was only hard, but the "Experts" kept killing the HQ trucks the idiot AI kept bunching up around the west munitions point as you can see in the mini-map.

Then my "ally" started dropping shells on my forces, and THEN started spamming Priests...

[coreltyc]

So far, i didn't encounter much friendly fire by the AI yet. Most of the time, my AI ally just stuck somewhere, and keep accumulate his force (which was pretty useless, as it is so far from the front line).

A common schene is the US AI always build mortar team and send them headless without any infantry support. It is so mad... haha... like sending them to suicide >_<

[BlackOmne]

Pity the AI doesn't get harder, just more resources. *sigh*

There's more to it than that. Many AI variables are adjusted with each higher difficulty level.

[Ballist1x]

Wait until they start spamming StuHs. Or Hetzers if they are PE.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Truth.

and you think STUHs are rubbish, but if u are on a rifleman / AB type strat i assure you that the stuh will do some damage.

Spammed Hetzer:/ Shermans dont get to last 2 mins in those games, 57mm overload.

[dark frontier]

I have noticed that when the AI us US, they spam INSANE numbers of jeeps
its actually scary
they seem to go through progressive levels of spam as US
They start out with Jeep spam, do seemingly nothing much more until Greyhounds (sometimes send a riflemen blob) then spam those massively, all the while keeping loads of AT guns, then they just kind of stop, sometimes getting M4s, sometimes not

Though I had an equally annoying game the other day where the expert AI KEPT using strafing runs in an attempt to kill my flak 88 crews...

I nearly cried after about the 9th one

[Avatar13]

This is one of my biggest gripes, the AI, seeing I mostly play offline. I truly hope that this will be addressed at some patch in the future as playing can be quite disappointing, more so on some maps than others and when playing certain factions over other ones.

[BlackOmne]

Of those complaining here, have any of you tried Warnstaff's AI Mod for skirmish mode? It's easy to install, doesn't overwrite any game files (so you can still play the original AI or the modded AI), and improves the AI performance greatly. Here is the link to the mod's home of these forums:

http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=137865

Although this AI mod will offer a much greater challenge, don't expect the AI (either by mod or Relic) to reach the intelligence level of a human (eg, feints, coordinated flanking attacks, etc). Some of you have no idea that that level of intelligence is impossible with today's computers with a game occuring in real-time on a 3D map.

I know it's sad to think that is takes a modder to improve the AI, but it would be better to play the mod until Relic gets around to improving it themselves, IF they ever do.

[Avatar13]

Of those complaining here, have any of you tried Warnstaff's AI Mod for skirmish mode?

Actually, I have and just downloaded the latest iteration yesterday. I tried Lyon (2) verses Wehr while playing US. Expert AI. Started off great and had this massive battle going on the left side of the map where the foot bridge is. Finally got the best of them getting them to retreat and then the AI just quit. They stopped building stuff and no longer came after me. I was all psyched for a long drawn out battle based on the beginning experience but then got let down big time. All I did, once I crossed the bridge, was attack at long range and I was able to kill what little was left. Got real boring to be honest. I was playing as AB and never built any vehicles just used infantry and AT. He only built 2 Stuh IVs and one AC. I'll try it some more on another map but was disappointed with this one.

[trebmal_ca]

I have had the same thing playing against brits.

block the two side bridges, and setup a killing zone on the main bridge. after a few troops and tanks, nothing, so I send in a scout, and you will see tanks and troops just sitting around points.

[Avatar13]

I have had the same thing playing against brits.

block the two side bridges, and setup a killing zone on the main bridge. after a few troops and tanks, nothing, so I send in a scout, and you will see tanks and troops just sitting around points.

Yup, that's pretty much what I was seeing, except I had all bridges blocked at that point. Really hope Relic (or anyone else for that matter!) can do something about the weird AI behavior.

[spekkie99]

Relic has an alternative, play humans

[BlackOmne]

trebmal and Avatar,
What difficulty level were you playing? Lower difficulty levels are a lot less aggressive. If you present them with a situation that would be suicidal, they can decide to sit tight and wait for you to make a move. There are AI factors that require the AI to have a certain superiority of force to overcome what you have waiting for it. If it can't reach that superiority because of pop cap limits, the AI won't do anything until you do. Did you think it has an unlimited pop cap? Do you think it can delete units (which human players can't do), so that it can free up pop cap to make better units? You left them with the limits of no more than half a map worth or resources and pop cap.

Avatar,
When you blocked all the bridges, what did you expect the AI to do? Of course, the AI will just give up and wait for you to come to it or at least open up a path to reach your side of the map. Did you expect the AI to find some way to breach your blocked bridges? Both you and trebmal need to get off noob maps like Lyon and Vire River. The AI has never and will never perform well on maps where there are so few paths from one side to the other, especially if the human player blocks those paths with tank traps and wire. One of the major weaknesses of the AI is it's inability to effectively deal with lines of tank traps and wire. You're lucky to see the AI occasionally find a way through wire. The only time it can get through TTs is if it can produce a heavy crush vehicle, use the blitz ability for the wehrmacht, or simply get lucky with artillery when targetting your units (ie, it won't use artillery to specifically attack TTs). If it runs, out of pop cap before producing a heavy crush vehicle, then it can't do anything about the TTs. Unless one of the AIs happen to be wehrmacht and then happen to choose the blitz doctrine and unless the AI happends to activate the blitz ability because a firefight (because it won't activate it just to break through the TTs), again it won't do anything about the TTs. US AIs can only break through TTs if they get a pershing or a lucky shot from artillery. PE AIs can't break through at all with the possible exception of building a bergtiger (and they rarely if ever build those) or if they build a JP, and again possibly with lucky artillery. Brit AIs can break through TTs if they produce churchills, a doctrine specific vehicle, or again get lucky with artillery.

If you really want to see what the AI can do, play on more open maps. Also, try the Hard difficulty since it's sufficiently aggressive. Try the AI Mod on the following maps:
1v1
Angoville
Semois
Langres
Sturzdorf
Wrecked Train
2v2
Linden
Wolfheze
Lorraine
McGechan's War
Point duHoc
Rails & Metal
St Hilaire
3v3
Hedgerow Siege
Hill 331
4v4
Montargis Region
Route N13

[Abort3d]

I've had the comp destroy road blocks with AB satchel charges.

[BlackOmne]

I don't believe it. I have played the AI over 100s of games and never seen it do that. As the say around here, "replay or didn't happen".

[Bfoster80]

I have been in a ranked 2v2 automatch game and saw my teammate send 2 mg's and a mortar team(undeployed also) to attack a M8.. I VERY politely asked, "are you new" he said, "Nope, well just to online playing, I played skirmish and campaign's alot", then I proceeded to cuss alot(to myself of course) and told everyone gg and dropped considering we were playing some higher lvl guys...

[Compel]

I've had the game for 5 months, and a lot of my friends have bought it the last few days. I've been teaching them to play a bit, even though I've never played online in it before!

Came across something really frustrating the other day though, since there was 3 of us, we were playing 2 v 2, with an Easy AI for my ally. The Ai was doing well up until a point, then it just became stormtrooper squad, STuH stormtrooper squad, STuh... Then, it managed to get its base attacked, which I graciously started putting back together again and it never bothered rebuilding a single building. Meanwhile, of course, it's still sending those call ins over until at the end of the game, I had 8 squads of stormtroopers sitting on their butt having a tea party in the forest outside my base (it was the I think it's Linden map). Eventually, of course, the VP counter wound down and I lost...

Course, it didn't help, that my kettenkrad kept on refusing to move forwards to capture the point in the town because there was a few tank traps nearby the point.

I might post a replay so you guys can have a laugh at the 3 noobs who take an hour 20 minutes to play a simple game :P

[BlackOmne]

Compel,
The vanilla Easy AIs will not capture enemy controlled map points, only neutral ones. Easy AIs are not aggressive in attacking. Therefore, that is why those stormtroopers were just standing around.

To everyone,
If you're going to complaing about the AIs, don't do so unless you're using Hard or Expert AIs, modded or un-modded. Vanilla Easy and Normal skirmish AIs are about one step short of brain-dead, especially Easy ones. The Normal AI in Warnstaff's AI Mod are about the equivalent of vanilla Expert AIs.

[Avatar13]

BlackOmne,

I guess my post wasn't clear enough. I stated I was playing against Expert AI, which is all I ever play against. I also mentioned that the AI did rush across the western foot bridge and there was a massive battle there for a little while. I ended up getting the upper hand after loosing some ground initially. Once they retreated the AI just stopped producing stuff and no longer attacked me, like it just gave up. I sent a sniper to its' base to see what was going on and that's how I knew what few troops/vehicles were left were just standing around doing nothing and no more were being produced, despite having plenty of resources to do so. Killed troops weren't even being replaced. Vanilla Ai does better than this on that map.

I didn't realize it was a "noob" map... I just happen to like it.

[(Undecided)]

I've had the comp destroy road blocks with AB satchel charges.

Yup, the American AI also loves trying to destroy barbed wire with grenades.

[BlackOmne]

Avatar,
Did you get a Fatal AI Error? That may also explain why the AI stop doing anything. If you were playing Expert AI in the AI Mod, the AI should not have stopped like that unless either an error occurred or the AI ran out of pop cap and felt it couldn't attack your side of the map. There have been times where the AI has frozen on Lyon, but I thought Relic fixed that.

I call any map where a player, particularly those that can't handle the normal hectic pace of a more open map, chooses it because he quickly and easily divide the map to give him time to think, build up or just plain camp on their side of the map as a "noob" map. I'm not saying you're a noob. I like the layout of Lyon also. I just wish the AI could handle maps like this better, but I seriously doubt we'll ever see the AI handle such a map very well. When I'm testing Warnstaff's AI Mod on that map, it is simply to see if the AI will operate because it never offers a human familar with COH with half a brain much of a challenge.

If you can beat the AI Mod's Expert AI on one of the 1v1 maps I've listed above, I would love to see the replay. I don't think it can be done with the possible exception of choosing a Brit AI to play against. The Brit AI, modded or un-modded, doesn't offer much of a challenge even on Expert because it simply doesn't understand how to use its units and abilities properly - it's like a human player playing the brits the same way he would play the Americans - it's not effective.

Yup, the American AI also loves trying to destroy barbed wire with grenades.

All faction AIs (at least those with grenades) try that. That and use flamethrowers on them, usually in passing in both cases.

[Tod]

I once managed to do that as PE vs. US on Angoville, but it was mostly due to a funny combination of a medic tent and Falls in a building. The building was upgraded to a FHQ and therefore healing them and the medic tent was housing 6 medics (other from other stations came there). Now the AI Rifles would charge that house, the Vet3 Falls with FG cut them down while getting healed so they didn't die and those poor Rifles would then be picked up and send back on the field within mere seconds. This kept the AI constantly over popcap, so he couldn't build better troops and brought me a Falls squad with over 500 kills

[Abort3d]

I don't believe it. I have played the AI over 100s of games and never seen it do that. As the say around here, "replay or didn't happen".

Why would i save a replay of a comp stomp? Anyways it was gilroys harbor i was PE scorched earth and i put road blocks on the main road, needless to say an AB squad ran up tossed a satchel and boom bye bye road blocks. They weren't tank traps. If you jhave played as many comp stomps as you say then you would by now seen the comp try and destroy tank traps and such with grenades and incendiary nades.

[Avatar13]

Avatar,Did you get a Fatal AI Error?

Nope, no errors of any kind.

the AI should not have stopped like that unless either an error occurred or the AI ran out of pop cap and felt it couldn't attack your side of the map.

It may have reached pop cap but then I killed some and they were never replaced.

There have been times where the AI has frozen on Lyon, but I thought Relic fixed that.

I haven't seen this before until this particular time playing so I attributed it to the mod.

I did try another map tonight, Angoville, and got my ass handed to me very quickly. It was pretty absurd how out numbered I was so early in the game. I'd really like to see someone win playing expert with this mod and map as it just didn't seem possible. A little over the top, imho. I like that this mod makes it harder but giving them so many more resources than I'm able to make... Guess I'll have to bump the level down a bit and see how it is.

I call any map where a player, particularly those that can't handle the normal hectic pace of a more open map, chooses it because he quickly and easily divide the map to give him time to think, build up or just plain camp on their side of the map as a "noob" map. I'm not saying you're a noob.

I didn't feel like you were calling me a noob, and I'm sure compared to some around here I am. I now understand your reasoning for calling the map that though. I'll have to try it again and see if I get similar behavior.

[Skyline Pete]

There are AI factors that require the AI to have a certain superiority of force to overcome what you have waiting for it. If it can't reach that superiority because of pop cap limits, the AI won't do anything until you do.

This is the key right here gentlemen. Lock down a sector with enough stuff and the AI will either go around or just 'give up' until the balance is restored.


It's very easy to notice once the AI has gone into this 'give up' mode.

[BlackOmne]

I did try another map tonight, Angoville, and got my ass handed to me very quickly. It was pretty absurd how out numbered I was so early in the game. I'd really like to see someone win playing expert with this mod and map as it just didn't seem possible. A little over the top, imho. I like that this mod makes it harder but giving them so many more resources than I'm able to make... Guess I'll have to bump the level down a bit and see how it is.

Avatar,
Try Hard under the AI Mod. If you're decent player with a good tactical head and are familar with COH, you should be able to routinely beat it but it will make you work for it. I only use Expert AIs from the mod when I'm playing a team game or if facing a Brit AI in 1v1 - that's how weak the Brit AI is, even modded.

Also, keep in mind that High Starting Resouces can help take the early edge off the AI's income bonuses, long enough for you to get established on the map.

[Avatar13]

Try Hard under the AI Mod. If you're decent player with a good tactical head and are familar with COH, you should be able to routinely beat it but it will make you work for it. I only use Expert AIs from the mod when I'm playing a team game or if facing a Brit AI in 1v1 - that's how weak the Brit AI is, even modded.

Will do. I've noticed that the Brit AI is ridiculous most of the time and not hard to beat at all. I'll have to try it under Expert with the mod and see how it does.

Also, keep in mind that High Starting Resouces can help take the early edge off the AI's income bonuses, long enough for you to get established on the map.

I've never done this as I thought it also gave more to the AI. Guess I shouldn't assume, huh? Thanks for the info!

Oh yeah, I tried/am trying Lyon again with the same parameters and am having a completely different experience. Once I started moving into his territory across the foot bridge and captured a few points the crap hit the fan! He's doing a much better job now than before and hasn't given up. Maybe it was the "balance" part mentioned a couple of posts ago? Though I don't think I had that much going for me at that time... I also found that the AI hadn't even captured a couple of the points yet! This really surprised me. But now I've started a fire under his rump and am almost forced back across the bridge... A lot more fun this time around!!

[BlackOmne]

The AI will get High Starting Resources also. But look at this way:

You = 1000+250mp/min
AI = 1000+500mp/min

is better than

You = 250+250mp/min
AI = 250+500mp/min

In other words with High Resources, you hit 2000mp 4min in, the AI 2min in, 2min after the AI.
With Standard Resources, you hit 2000mp @ 7min, the AI @ 3.5min, 3.5min after the AI.

Like I said, it takes the edge off his higher income, giving you a little breathing room. It's like racing a VW bug against a Corvette. If they're both moving at the same speed when they stomp on the gas, the corvette won't leave the bug behind as quick if they started from a standing still position.

[Avatar13]

Ah, good point. I never knew how much more I would get or the AI for that matter so I couldn't have done the math. Will try it next time and see how much longer it takes to get my ass handed to me! Right now I'm still stuck on trying to break this big battle in Lyon. A King Tiger has just shown up and I'm not very prepared for it... (cue ominous music...)