Another US vs. PE Loss. NEED ADVICE!!

[DarkWombat77]

Just played a game on Wrecked Train against a lvl 9 PE player (I'm lvl 8 US). Needless to say, I lost. After he pumped out his 4 minute armored car I rushed to get a motor pool (I had just enough fuel to get a supply depot so I used both engineers to get it up). Eventually took out his armored car chasing it with 2 m8's that lasted most of the game until the final engagement.

After he lost his armored car he just started pumping out assault greandiers and marders like no other. And it's a deadly combination: my M8's were at bay and my AT guns were getting sniped and blown up. Use of suppression fire of my BAR'd riflemen on the Assault Grenadier blob did nothing. It was a steep downhill slope after that.

I controlled the high fuel on the right. I tried to take the fuel points in the middle and the left and they were contested between the two of us. But it didn't seem to matter in the end as he was still able to scrounge up enough fuel to throw more marders at me.

I need tips on what I could have done better. I was hoping to get a strafing run but didn't have enough CP's to get it and then it was too late.

There was an AT gun that was unmanned outside my base that I never got back to capturing. That's something I should have captured and put back into the fight. I don't know what else I could have done effectively because he just had so many units out so quickly. When I'd retreat my squads they'd get slaughtered anyways but he was able to pull back effectively, re-man and get his veterancy.

Generally I'm doing a lot better against the Panzer Elite than I used to. But it means I have to do more cookie-cutter strategies: barracks, jeep, rifle, rifle, rifle, Motor Pool, M8, M8, Airborne, Recoilless... you see where it's going.
Tips?

[AchillesHeel]

I'm only theorizing here, but I've been thinking about a strategy that uses a Weapons Support Center.

Barracks
Rifle
Rifle
WSC
MG
Stickies
MG
Rifle
Sniper/Mortar
Rifle
Mortar/Sniper
BARs

...or something like that.

The Stickies are vital, since you'd be delaying the Motor Pool and you'll need to deal with the AC and/or Mortar HT. The WSC doesn't use a ton of Fuel, so you don't need to secure those cutoff points quite so badly as you do for M8s.

I haven't actually tried this yet. Just thinking out loud, so to speak.

[burninglegionx]

I'm 'learning' americans thsese days and it seems that a good PE player can toy rifles around with AC or their HTs until rangers / airborne+RR come in. (well, i've been toying americans around myself w/ HTs and I've never seen a good counter from them, yet)

Sniper / mortar is a suicide against AC OR HTs (both inf + mortar)

MG gets flanked then enemy gets your gun.

Blob-stiking AC / HTs work only if the PE player don't know how to micro properly / makes a mistake.

I've seen some success with mines (semois, mine the roads&bridge) but it's not too reliable. Engine damage from mines+rifle run up for stickie can bring down a AC but it's only IF they hit my mine.

Any other ideas?

[DarkWombat77]

On a map like Wrecked Train there really aren't any good spots to mine unfortunately. I placed an M8 mine on the little ramp up to the far right fuel point but when his men capped it they went from the bottom ramp so they avoided it. Then their crapass Field Craft probably revealed the mines anyways while they captured the point so it didn't matter.

WSC probably would have been a good idea, but being Airborne I airdropped an MG, took it and set up on the far left side towards the end. If it had finished setting up a couple second earlier it may have actually suppressed someone, but there were fallschirmjagers that came out of the building behind it anyways so it wouldn't have lasted long.

Airborne starves you of manpower pretty well, so you gotta be careful going WSC. One problem I fall into is that I use my two or three rifle squads to their maximum potential but that usually means I'm reinforcing them a lot, and that drains manpower pretty well. Reinforcing airborne is even more expensive. So I'll have a buildup of fuel but no window in which to use it.

I've made stickies work against armored cars when I have my men very spread out. He'll be backing up and retreating and I'll flank it somewhere and sticky it. It's really situational but that's the death sentence for the armored car.

[tedman109]

combined arms. rifles covering mgs covering rifles. Yes if you leave an mg alone to cover an area it will get flanked and munged by ACs. but have them moving up with your forces and your rifles and cover the MGS from ACs while the mgs surpress the PE blob. then get MP for some AT guns and a recoilless/ranger squad to finish off marders. Obviously if you are going so infantry heavy, a triage center is a must to keep squads alive to get veterancy. if he is infantry spamming, 2 or 3 snipers totally destroys PE rushes. you just have to NOT get greedy and keep the snipers with the main body of your forces!

Also note that its well worth it to get the level 1 supply yard upgrade after you have 3-5 rifle squads. when you build the SY you get a 25% reduction in upkeep, so the 14.4/squad goes to 10.8, then another 25% off of that, goes to 8.0, a savings of 6.4mp/min/squad. it pays for itself in manpower in 5-6 minutes depending on the size of your army, then you are getting gravy which you will need to keep up with reinforcing your squads. This is of course if you can spare the fuel, but really lategame US is all about MP once AC's are negated by heavy armor.

[AchillesHeel]

Sniper / mortar is a suicide against AC OR HTs (both inf + mortar)

Yes, but they're great against infantry. Everybody talks about "the fast AC", but after the first 2 or 3 times I saw it, it stopped scaring me. Like the OP, it's the subsequent hordes of Assault Grenadiers and Marders that always cream me. The suppression of .30s and mortars would - I think - help a ton (BAR suppression doesn't work well because PE have many, small squads).

A Sniper on top of all that would help to finish off damaged squads, but that might be too much of a luxury (if you have all that available, you're probably winning anyway).

MG gets flanked then enemy gets your gun.

Not if it's in a building. There are some handy ones on Wrecked Train, particularly on the left, one that covers the cutoff point in the middle of the road, one that covers the fuel point and one further up that covers the road from another angle and another fuel point. My thinking is that 2 .30s in those buildings could keep the hordes at bay.

The Mortar HT and the AC are the bugaboos here, which is why I would not recommend going with a WSC opening. In my experience, I need 3 Rifle Squads working in tandem to handle the PE light armor.

Blob-stiking AC / HTs work only if the PE player don't know how to micro properly / makes a mistake.

From Green cover, 3 Rifle squads can take out or chase away an AC or HT.

The issue regarding the WSC, in my mind, is whether it's better to go for the Motor Pool and then back-tech to the suppression weapons, or go with the WSC first and delay the MP a little.

Oh, one more thought about the suppression weapons. Someone suggested that a Quad .50 Halftrack would be a good choice against the PE. So I tried it. In the first big push by the enemy, the Quad got off a few bursts and then exploded. People say Panzerschreks are inaccurate at long range, but when you have 6 or 8 of the darned things, it's okay if half of them miss. Not to say that the Quad can't be useful, as that was just one game, but still...

[burninglegionx]

so, get M8 out, and backtech?

I find WSC units to die too fast (and generally useless) against mortar HTs whether the MG is in building or not.

Getting a sniper or two after riflespam (so BAR, Stickie upgrades are a must) doesn't really work b/c 2x sniper is 340x2 man power which is just too much: enemy will have a hetzer or PIV or marder+assault grens unless the PE really screwed up on the way.

[AchillesHeel]

so, get M8 out, and backtech?

If the M8 is vital, yes. What I'm wondering is if a well-positioned .30 or two might be better.

I find WSC units to die too fast (and generally useless) against mortar HTs whether the MG is in building or not.

...and an Armored Car will chew up a garrisoned MG even faster than a Mortar will. But a Mortar HT is going to be a killer against whatever units you field, and Rifles can handle an Armored Car if they're working together and using cover.

Getting a sniper or two after riflespam (so BAR, Stickie upgrades are a must) doesn't really work b/c 2x sniper is 340x2 man power which is just too much: enemy will have a hetzer or PIV or marder+assault grens by the time you get M8 this way.

Like I said, the Sniper is a luxury. The .30 and the mortar - and of course the AT weapons - are more important, in my view.

Airborne starves you of manpower pretty well, so you gotta be careful going WSC.

I think Infantry might be a better choice for the strategy I'm working on. Going with Rangers over Paratroopers essentially trades the air-drop ability for more firepower. Rapid Response decreases deployment times for all of your Barracks and WSC units, and Defensive Operations allows your Riflemen to build the Green Cover I've been talking about, to fight the Armored Cars and Infantry Halftracks.

After that, you're giving up Strafing Run and getting artillery. Late game, the Howitzer and (believe it or not) the Off-Map Combat Group can help drive the final nail into Jerry's coffin. OMCG is weird, but I actually get some good stuff from time to time (and it's always cost-effective, so if you're able to adapt to using whatever it gives you, it's gold).

[Bfoster80]

If the M8 is vital, yes. What I'm wondering is if a well-positioned .30 or two might be better.


...and an Armored Car will chew up a garrisoned MG even faster than a Mortar will. But a Mortar HT is going to be a killer against whatever units you field, and Rifles can handle an Armored Car if they're working together and using cover.


Like I said, the Sniper is a luxury. The .30 and the mortar - and of course the AT weapons - are more important, in my view.

From my exp., with PE vs. US, early riflespam is the way to go, 3-PGw/G43 vs 6 Rifleman, rifleman will usually lose, one engi crew to build barracks, and then save the MP to get rifleman out, keep them in pairs(12 rifleman). WSC is useless against the PE in most situations, PG's dont suppress as easy and one unit can flank and the other takes out the MG crew with EASE. If you build a WSC and lose your first fight, your dead early. You shouldn't lose your first fight with a barracks, it will keep you in the game.. M8's are vital against the PE, it will kill all of there early armor scout cars, halftracks, armor cars, Marder 3's(yes I said Marders). Just beware of shrek crews, keep you M8's supported by bar'd rifleman.. I think that is a fair early-mid game strat.

[Shemwell]

WSC is really not so good of a move, mainly because it is entirely countered by a mortar ht. Arguably, the fuel needed for the mortar ht will slow his teching, but he still comes out on top.

Riflespam really is the way to go. BARs are more of a luxury, or at least not needed until after the m8 comes out. So long as he has no mp44s, just get your rifles into the closest cover and pound away. If you do get your rifles in good cover, they can survive against the early PE armor long enough to do significant damage.

If he gets a mortar halftrack supported by pgrens, then you may be in trouble, but IME very few players will do this against barracks.

Jeeps are great for fire support, hunting kettens, and scouting.

Assault grenadiers are helpless against armored cars, so I am not sure what you are talking about; just circle strafe his marders.

[d4md]

Jeep M8 is nice vs the armored cars. Jeep blocks it, M8 shoots it in the rear.

[burninglegionx]

another reason M8 is great is b/c you can sabotage enemy WEH or PE by planting a mine right in front of their unit-making structures. It's funny to see WEH's PAK blowing up right after they're created.

Also when WEH has a bunker out and has mg42s in side, plant a mine with M8 right under the bunker and it seem to blow up everyone inside.

[ZeroTwo]

PG's dont suppress as easy

Funny you should say that, and that this thread exists.

I just played a WSC start Infantry American as standard Scorched Earth PE on Semois. I won in the end, but god damn if he didn't give me more trouble than any American yet.

Is there any way you guys can think of to solve the problem of map control when using a WSC start? The reason he lost is that I used my HT and Mortar HT to fight his mgs (backing out of the .30 cal super-kill-bullets-spray) and didn't bother to build more than six or seven PZGR squads in the entire 22 minute game. After I lost the first four squads to learning what a .30 cal could really do, I built three more and relegated them to capture duty. That's all they did, trap buildings, trap points and capture objectives. Without soft PZGR to kill with his sniper and MGs, there was little he could do against the light armour.

Battle was swinging in the back third, but my P4 finally rolled out and supported by a damaged HT bolted straight into the enemy controlled town. He still didn't have any AT at 17+ minutes so the P4/HT combo rocked his mans, finally some rangers sprinted up and dealt with it both of them, but I'd basically levelled his force.

I hate that church. I called in a Sector Artillery on it out of rage, it did nothing but damage the church, I think zero damage to the units inside.

Anyway, back on topic. The PZGR were almost immediately pinned by the .30, even though it took a while for the MG to actually kill a man they were on the ground faster than you can say "HALT, HAMMERZEIT!", and the WSC start was quite effective against me. I admit I'm still getting a grip on Multiplayer, but the WSC start was much more effective than Riflespam at killing my men and keeping me back.

Opinions, thoughts, comments?

[Bfoster80]

The reason I say that is because I have seen my mg team shoot at a PG 3 man squad in green cover and them never get into yellow suppression. They actually shot untill my MG squad was down to one man and no health, I was shocked. I have never seen that before even in green cover, volts get suppressed quickly, I dunno.
Snipers are really handy against the PE, but not worth the long build time and the trouble of the WSC. The scout car cannot decloak them(don't think the armor either?) only the ketten, and the small PG squad size is easy killing's for 2 snipers!

[ZeroTwo]

I think the patch changed that Bfoster.

I had a G43 squad in my example in green cover behind a wall in Semois, firing at a .30 cal in the church.

Pinned them in 5-7 seconds.

[Bfoster80]

Advice to a counter a WSC is easy, use one squad to flank the mg, while the other squad comes on the other side to kill. PG's will kill a US mg team real quick, even in a building(most buildings). Find weak points on the buildings, IE: no windows, shoot them thru the walls cause they cant shoot you and will get out and become vulnerable. Dont run anything but a tank(not a Marder 3) into the AP rounds of that mg, it will cut all of the PE light vehicles down. If you see a MG team, dont waist your time building anything but mortar halftracks and PG squads early.

[burninglegionx]

If your PG squad get pinned by .3 behind a green cover, it's b/c one of the squad member was NOT in the green cover.

If all 3 or 4 PG squad is in the green cover, they never get suppressed from a MG. One of the reason why i rush to the middle vic point with my 1st and 2nd PG squad in St Mere Dumont. PG+G43+green cover rape MGs even if the MGs are in the building.

[DarkWombat77]

You could also just flank the building from the other side and toss in an incendiary grenade. The PE just have too many early, effective counters early game that can destroy WSC. They also have nice counters early game that kill rifles but not as easily as WSC in my opinion. Snipers are the only useful thing that comes out of the WSC vs. the PE, mortars do poor damage against PE infantry and there are too many fast vehicles about to make it effective.

The reason I go airborne is not just because of strafing run (although when I have the munitions to make it work and he blobs JUUUUST right it's great to see lots of green exp points jump out while he cries about how lame it is). The air dropped AT guns and supplies are extremely useful in a tight situation and it allows you to quickly flank the enemy. Supply drops give you MG's and mortars which almost negates the weapons support center, aside from snipers which I think are only useful in a 2v2+ game, not a 1v1 against PE. They're just too expensive.

Now a 2v2 with 2 US vs. 2 PE, with one US player going barracks and one going WSC seems like an effective strategy to me, so long as they work together. Keeping the MG back and firing up AP round when those infantry halftracks run by is very effective.

But still, it's those goddamned #(*&ing armored cars that come out when there are no effective counters anywhere near available that bugs me. People say "run into cover" but any PE player worth a damn can hit overdrive, flank the squad and they're gone. Or run in his assault grenadiers and they're gone. Or use incendiary grenades and push them out of cover and they're gone. The armored car seriously needs to be more expensive, in line with the wehrmacht armored car. It's also too accurate against retreating infantry, that's where I really lose my squads. I've had times where 5 men in my rifle squad retreat and they just get gunned down on the way back to base, and that really bites hard.

[Ballist1x]

building a WSC after a barracks will add 2~ minutes to your motor pool. Sometimes it can work, mostly it will not. Unless you have an incredible ability to spam 0.30's its just not going to work. The manpower to build the WSC styops you from building a rifle team, the cost of an MG/Mortar will stop you building 3 quarters of another rifle squad.

id rather build 2 x rifles than a wsc and a single 0.30, get a M8 or 2x, get HT Quad and sme 57mm, otherwise you just die quickly.

[MrFinsch]

As US you have one early game advantage, you can cap much faster than he can and you can hunt down his ketten with a jeep. So try to deny him that fuel as long as possible and get as much fuel as you can yourself.
Avoid any encounter you know beforehand you will lose.
Get out a first M8 as fast as you can. He will have his armored car as early as possible (or he will drive infantry HTs in your base).

When he drives in your base with a inf HT with schrecked grenadiers you will have your M8 out approximately at the same time. Be careful not to lose that M8 and get down his HT.
If he drives in your base without schrecks and you are not able to fight him off, send one of your units to found a forward HQ so you can reinforce and attack from there.
If he goes for the fast armored car your M8 will arrive one or two minutes later and then it will turn the battle.

After one or two M8s you can backtech to WSC, but do not consider a WSC before that. WSC is powerful against PE in combination with M8s and some rifleman.

[Catastrofizum]

DarkWombat77, the problem is dead obvious to me. Your opening build order was not good. You only made 2 rifles initially and that is not nearly enough legs on the ground!
And the second squad just sat outside the barracks after being built which further worsened the situation. By the time you saw the AC and freaked out, you had 700mp+ in the bank and began to build motor pool. Bad.....

Ok, here's what you could have done to improve things dramatically. Build more rifles! 4 or 5 squads should be the choice you have. Given the jeep first, I would say 4 is in order. After that you should be scrambling for a motor pool. PE can get an AC at 75fuel! M8 requires 145fuel. That means there will be a window where you have to weather the storm - don't be tempted into the WSC or stickies cause it will slow everything down. Heavy cover is your only chance to fight off AC, otherwise retreat and avoid heavy losses until your M8 is up.

[ZeroTwo]

@ burninglegionx

Now that is something I did not know. There was one member of the squad definitely standing outside the wall, upright, in the middle of the damn street. I blame him!

Would be an interesting graphical change to have the little yellow or green "cover" shield split in half when part of the squad is not in cover and part is....

[DarkWombat77]

Catastrofizum: thanks for watching the replay. I forgot all about that rifle squad (I swear it's because I never heard them finish!). I normally get 3 rifle squads before going motorpool but I'll aim for more next time around. When I get more than 3 I usually find that I start blobbing instead of microing my units better so that's something else to work on.

[Teleon]

Just to theory-crafting here, perhaps a little bit… but, has anyone tried going Armored doctrine with this build:

Engineers
WSC
Sniper
.30
mortar
Engineers

Get forward HQ to get the riffles out if needed.

Then onto fast M8 fighting for CP’s to get a calliope?

[Bfoster80]

I think the patch changed that Bfoster.

I had a G43 squad in my example in green cover behind a wall in Semois, firing at a .30 cal in the church.

Pinned them in 5-7 seconds.

This was post patch, just a few days ago on Point Du Hoc, my mg team was in the middle church and his PG squad was in the middle vp trench. Both of our first squads. To me that was a game changing moment, I was being pushed back from then on. After that I will only do a wsc on certain maps.

I love the armor doc, the capping with jeeps and m8's is awesome for cutting off key sectors!! On a 1v1, most of the time I will go barracks, supply yard, motor pool, and tank depot if needed. I usually only build m10's outta the tank depot. The m8 is so deadly against all of the PE armor except a panther or P4. I usually go armor unless I see a quick scout car out, that means they are fast teching to armor cars more than likely, so rangers are a good idea. More than likely they will get a AC out before you can get a M8 out, depending on map control.

[zzSleeper]

Just to theory-crafting here, perhaps a little bit… but, has anyone tried going Armored doctrine with this build:

Engineers
WSC
Sniper
.30
mortar
Engineers

Get forward HQ to get the riffles out if needed.

Doesn't work, when he runs into your sniper he will instantly click the luftwaffe button and kill your sniper with his PGs, IIRC PE can get almost 3 PG squads before you get a single sniper.

G43 suppression will stop your sniper from running, ketten will decloak him, you just lost your very first and very expensive unit, game over 2 minutes in.

[DarkWombat77]

Kets also detect snipers while they're cloaked too, which is one of the more bullshit things I've noticed with PE. The whole cloaking kettenkrad thing needs to get rethinked, it should only be able to cloak while stationary and in cover like the hetzer. Invisible vehicles DRIVING AROUND is insane and they're faster than snipers at scouting, and they cost half as much, and the ability is free.....I could go on and on.

[Bfoster80]

Kets also detect snipers while they're cloaked too, which is one of the more bullshit things I've noticed with PE. The whole cloaking kettenkrad thing needs to get rethinked, it should only be able to cloak while stationary and in cover like the hetzer. Invisible vehicles DRIVING AROUND is insane and they're faster than snipers at scouting, and they cost half as much, and the ability is free.....I could go on and on.

Kinda like the ablity to "button" a tank, lol... Its a game, gotta add some "unrealistic" things to it.

[Catastrofizum]

Kets also detect snipers while they're cloaked too, which is one of the more bullshit things I've noticed with PE. The whole cloaking kettenkrad thing needs to get rethinked, it should only be able to cloak while stationary and in cover like the hetzer. Invisible vehicles DRIVING AROUND is insane and they're faster than snipers at scouting, and they cost half as much, and the ability is free.....I could go on and on.

Camouflage ketten is doctrine specific...yes, they're faster than snipers and cost half as much, but I guess since the driver lacks a sniper rifle it probably makes it fair.

[JamieLea]

Strafing run? that works against almost every PE unit

[Guardsman Yoshi]

I've found WSC to be ineffective as you play against higher level players. One of the most annoying things I've encountered is Fallschirmjagers with FG42s. These things will out gun a .30 Cal MG and probably kill it making your investment in the MG almost futile. Many times I've had Fallschirmjager squads spawn right out of the building I was going to garrison and they would tend proceed to high jack the building forcing me to retreat the MG team.

Also, that 15 Fuel for WSC can be devastating. In maps where there is a lack of stone buildings, PE infantry squads can typically swarm MG positions and murder them before they have a chance to escape.

The biggest flaw to WSC is the heavy drain your capping power. Unlike the Wehrmacht, US cannot normally build more than 2-3 Engineer squads. This means if you go WSC, you won't have the Riflemen to cap or the Engineers to do so either.

[FrnZ]

the game is really broken actually PE only have to blob over ur combined arms

[BlackOmne]

Unlike the Wehrmacht, US cannot normally build more than 2-3 Engineer squads. This means if you go WSC, you won't have the Riflemen to cap or the Engineers to do so either.

Guardman,
Why do you say that US cannot build more than 2-3 engineer squads? To me, if you're going to go with a WSC, you're almost required to spam engineers. They're cheap, they can cap and they have other uses like building stuff.