[SS 1.0] The Vindicare Assassin

[Makenshi]

Time to discuss this little bastard, even thought nothing will probably be done in any patch after the coldfix - if more than one patch comes out. Maybe it will at least inspire modders if we reach something here...

Anyway, the 1st problem with the Vindicare (and main one) is, as widely know, the abusive price IG player has to pay for it's infiltration, considering he's the one single unit that benefits from the upgrade.

Cost reduction for his infiltration is in demand, no excuses I believe. But imo, the ideal for him would be to come infiltrated out-of-the-box, and now that SoB's Death Cult Assassin are in the field, infiltrated OOTB and being spammable, the "Relic doesn't want against infiltration without research" argument.

The 2nd problem is that he misses more shots than he should. I can already see post almost flaming me for wanting him to have 100% accuracy, even thought it would come, of course, with a damage reduction to keep dps. Hell, maybe with a small dps reduction itself, and 1 or 2 seconds more of reloading time if it's the price to pay for not missing shots with a man whose life IS to use that goddamn rifle - either to do his job or training for it.

As I said, most people will over react to this suggestion so here is a less drastic: 100% accuracy at least for when the scope is activated; it's a pain is the ass to use an ability that stays active for only 2 shots at maximum, and lose both - I always scream "Why?! Why you @#$%?! Why did you miss right now?! Arrrrgh"... ¬¬

And no, I didn't come from a game where I lost and blamed the Vindicare. I just finally had the time and will to start a balance thread again...

Other than the above, I think he's ok; if there's anything else to add, I leave for Jaimas

[Armadaeus]

1st Problem: Ok, first off, the price is fairly reasonable. By the time you're in tier 3 you would probably have amassed enough resources that 100/100 isn't going to make much of a dent in your per second paycheck and your resources overall. Not to mention that him coming prepackaged will mean his cost is going to go up, when alot people think he's overpriced already. Keep the research as it is, I think.

2nd Problem: I see the point you're trying to make here, but remember that even though he may miss some shots he is devastating when he does hit. He kills tier 3 infantry in one shot, and I've even seen him kill both a Daemon Prince and a Krootox. Maybe boost his accuracy to 90% with the scope and also give back the sight increase, but other than that leave it be.

EDIT: Had a nice idea. Maybe leave everything as it is and have a research called "Vindicare Training and Equipment". Boosts accuracy (90% without scope, 100% with), gives sight increase when scope is used and gives infiltration. 200/200 and we're laughing. Maybe 150/150, something like that. Obviously, get rid of Assassin Infiltration since this fufills the same purpose.

[fs_xyz]

I support that 100% accuracy either with special ability activated or not.
He is the only sniper at IG army and he gets long reload time.

[Arcinatus]

i'm gonna have to agree with having 100% accuracy with the scope activated, and i also would LOVE having a sight range / weapon range increase back as well, but i feel he might be a lil overpowered with both those option back : /

so one or the other of those would be fine and dandy, and what is his accuracy w/o the scope activated now? it seems really low....

anyway, regarding infiltration, it's not really the cost of the upgrade, it's the total price of his temple, the unit himself, AND the infiltration, that is absurd. hell most of us ig players end up making more units, or going tier 4, then to get him out and upgraded. IMO it would be VERY nice to just have him come of the hq infiltrated already, or have the unit price reduced.

just my 2 cents there

[Makenshi]

Exactly, 400/225 is a lot of resources. Infiltration ootb would mean a total cost of 250/200 for him.

[Armadaeus]

i'm gonna have to agree with having 100% accuracy with the scope activated, and i also would LOVE having a sight range / weapon range increase back as well, but i feel he might be a lil overpowered with both those option back : /

Just the sight range, my friend.

so one or the other of those would be fine and dandy, and what is his accuracy w/o the scope activated now? it seems really low....

It's actually 80%. Decently high.

anyway, regarding infiltration, it's not really the cost of the upgrade, it's the total price of his temple, the unit himself, AND the infiltration, that is absurd. hell most of us ig players end up making more units, or going tier 4, then to get him out and upgraded. IMO it would be VERY nice to just have him come of the hq infiltrated already, or have the unit price reduced.

I see the point there. I suppose infiltration once he's trained would be good...

[Zergling56]

I agree with the accuracy increase while scope is active. It is very annoying when I activate it and he misses all those shots. It would be nice too if he just came with native stealth, and then we had some small increase in the temple cost to compensate. Like Arcinatus said I often find myself prefering to get out more elites or starting t4 before I even consider the assassin.

Also, I'm quite sure the assassin never lost the double rifle range with scope activation. He simply lost the LOS boost, so he cant see far enough to utlize the max range without a spotter. The scope can also be active for 3 shots of the rifle, not 2, assuming you time the activation right.

[Jaimas]

Concur with the accuracy buff whilst scope is active, whilst keeping the same DPS as now.

[Slow_Runner]

Broadsides are 240/120 and the Vindicare will one-shot them with the scope activated. Obliterators are 100/35 and the Vindicare will one-shot them faster than they can reinforce even without the scope.

What I mean by this is that it'll take 2-5 shots at the right targets for the Vindicare to pay itself back at the costs he has now. Having said that, a bump to 90% accuracy sounds good to me.

[Jaimas]

You know, if the whole of the goddamn Vindicare weren't centered around scope, this unit could actually be balanced a hell of a lot better than it is right now.

[MaddoxX]

I would prefer having his temple 2 or 3 times its original price and 100% accuracy even without scope and same sight as his range with scope because a sniper is not suppose to miss his shots and as he use to say one chance is all he need.

[Chris]

His accuracy seems low because with a long reload time, you pay more attention to each shot and notice more when he misses. It's what I call "tankbusta syndrome" back from vanilla DoW. I would be quite happy to lose some damage per shot if his accuracy was increased. Wouldn't be as broken as the hellhound because he has a long reload time and no FoTM.

[Chaingun]

Beware that a 100% accuracy buff and corresponding damage nerf to make DPS same will result in a slightly better assassin. This is because he'll on average overkill infantry units slightly less.

[The_nuketrooper]

Ranged overkill doesn't matter - wether you are going to deal 2k dmg on a guardsmen or "only" 400 -the poor guy is dead and you need to reload. They talk about accuracy buff (which I support-at least make him 100% accurate while using the scope) ,not RoF buff.
Would it be too much to request reduction of the infiltration cost too? The assasin is a dead meat without the invisibility ,so practically he costs 350/200 without mentioning the temple ..

[Chaingun]

^Very wrong - it clearly does matter. In the current model assassin overkills a guardsman by a huge margin, but sometimes misses and doesn't kill GM at all because accuracy is less than 100%. By buffing the accuracy to 100% assassin will kill a GM in every shot, thus buffing effective DPS.

RoF has nothing to do with it, although the mechanism for the broadside buff is similar.

[Chris]

If an IG player wants to shoot at low HP targets with the assassin then that's his business but it's a massive waste of resources and potential.

[mlai]

This is a noobcall for Assassin buff. His high costs and high overkill clearly calls for a discerning use of this unit, not to just post him behind your skirmish line and laugh as he randomly snipes enemy targets with 100% acc and no overkill. If you don't feel like doing the micro, don't buy him.

I agree he can use a small decrease in costs. But definitely no infiltrate OOTB. Chaos OOTB-ness is a POS game change holdover from WA. It's not a good feature. Don't emulate it, don't condone it.

Now that Bassies are nerfed to shit (in normal 1v1), I also agree that he can have his WA scope back. But if he gets this, he probably should not have any cost decrease.

[Chaingun]

If an IG player wants to shoot at low HP targets with the assassin then that's his business but it's a massive waste of resources and potential.

Of course, but the general principle still holds for any infantry he is able to one-shot kill.

[Chris]

This is a noobcall for Assassin buff. His high costs and high overkill clearly calls for a discerning use of this unit, not to just post him behind your skirmish line and laugh as he randomly snipes enemy targets with 100% acc and no overkill. If you don't feel like doing the micro, don't buy him.

It's got nothing to do with the micro AFAIK. It's a simple case of his usefulness fluctuating heavily depending on whether or not he hits or misses a critical shot. Micro doesn't even factor into it.

[mlai]

The 80% acc, as said, factors into why he should not be used against massed low-hp units, and should only be used against elite capped units. Unless there is absolutely nothing else for him to do. Considering that he reloads every 7 secs and is fragile, you could even consider leaving him on cease-fire until you've located a suitable target.

[Chris]

Finding a suitable target isn't the problem, it's whether or not he'll bullseye said target for great justice or completely miss.

[The_nuketrooper]

Nobody wants to make him able to effectively kill massed low hp units - the idea is the bastard is damn expensive and more importanly - you feel when he misses shots.When he misses 2 hits in a row (yes -he DOES that) with scope actived I want stuff that rifle of his in his a.. . Hell once my assasin missed 3 times in a row . Given his brutal reload time it practiacally meant I didn't have an assasin and donated all that req and power to the IG charity fund.

[mlai]

LOL him and Ranger should switch accuracies.
Come to think of it, exactly why does a tier 1 large squad need an acc of 100%???

[Jaimas]

You can spout how his accuracy isn't a big deal all you want, the fact of the matter is that when his scope's engaged he still currently misses one in 5 shots.

And yes, Rangers are still goddamn broken.

[warforger]

Acctually, all units seem to auto-hit, Dosen't seem to be any accuracy cared about, at least for normal weapons, besides I think that units hit by sniper weapons should make no sound at all, so the snipers aren't given away.

[ViS]

Are you all forgetting about his sick melee damage or something? I can EASILY get him to kill massed low HP units if there aren't any detectors around just by putting him into CC. Hell, scope even affects his CC damage, for some reason. You get lower DPS, but it's great to do between shots if you can pull off the micro.

EDIT: Shoot, melee for 5 seconds, 2 second setup, shoot, repeat.

[mlai]

Nobody is going to throw VAss into cc. As soon as an enemy detector shows up, he's dead. And don't tell me he's going to be able to escape from a tier 3/4 army which suddenly sees him in their middle.

[The_nuketrooper]

He seems to love sync kills alot so for most of the time he is having phun with the poor dude he murders. This is a compensation for his high melee dmg .
Getting him in and out of melee is quite difficult since
a) not even one sane players will stand the assasin punching his troops for more than 5-10 seconds
b) the rifle has minimum range - so he can't spank DP point-blank and then go bash him with the pistol (not to mention that he is supposed to stay away from general battle as there is high chance any random detector to pick him up .

[ViS]

You'd be surprised as to how often he goes unnoticed. Since it's not a priority to get detectors onto the field against IG, I often fight against enemies who don't realise that there's a little black clad psychopath hacking at their legs.

[ImmortalChaos]

My opinion:

Leave the price as is.
Remove assassins scope asbility as we know it.
Add a new scope ability.
This ability would be similar to the tau commanders target aquired: It would always hit, and it would happen instantly. This ability would have the same range as the current scope ability, deal the same damage (condensed into 1 shot however) and have the same recharge rate.

[mlai]

@ Imm:
Then why not just make the ass scope ability 100% acc, like some ppl suggested?

[ImmortalChaos]

Because it'd be a hell of a lot easier to pick what you want to hit.

[steel_tomatoes]

So it would apply to one shot only, and players would most likely use it on commanders.

For other engagements, vs heavy infantry or whatever, the assassin would shoot with the same damage and accuracy as he has now, which seems balanced.

I like it.

[mlai]

I'd rather not have yet another variation of Mind War/ Soul Strip.

Ass Scope doesn't need changing, it just needs tweaking.

[ImmortalChaos]

That argument works both ways; I'd rather not keep yet another berzerk fury, execute, or warshout.

[mlai]

Ass Scope also double his rifle range.
In WA, it also used to double his sight range.
The other important thing is, it's supposed to complement his rifle (if it's tweaked right, cuz it shouldn't work with his pistol too), so if he's tied-up/disrupted during his ability, he's been righteously countered.
All this means that it's a unique ability that requires strategy to use and to counter.
Edit:
My prelim tweaks on Ass Scope...
1. Rifle range x 2
2. Sight range x 2
3. Rifle damage x 1.4
4. Acc boost to 100%
5. Cannot move during ability (can fight back in cc)
6. Duration 15 secs
5. Cooldown 40 secs

[The_nuketrooper]

Sounds good except the "can't move" part - what happens if target moves away or he gets detected?

After some thought - 2xsight is great but IIRC that was one of the main arguments to nerf the basilisk so bad.. so giving it back will nail any hopes for usefull artillery :/

[mlai]

If target moves away, he retargets. Ass Scope is a self-targetting ability; its duration isn't affected by marks/targets.
If he gets detected? He dies. But if you're smart, it should never happen considering you're getting x2 weapon and sight range.

As for Bassies... Do you honestly think you're ever getting it back? Besides, you can always use the HQ radar.

[TheMiracul]

U shouldn't pimp him that much.... all ideas are good, but double sight is imba....

I would just put the stealth upgrade away....

[-Str!ker-]

This is just an idea so take it for what it's worth. How about a heightened accuracy for the first shot, then it lowers after successive shots. Then he has to move a certain range to set back up, and get full accuracy again. That would kind be similar to how a real sniper would have to operate, giving him the chance to hit his intended target, but not mass kill units.

[mlai]

@ Miracul:
Double sight existed in WA. It was removed because WA Bassies were uber. DC/SS Bassies suck. If you give VA the double sight, it indirectly buffs Bassies. Cuz don't expect IG to ever get direct Bassy buffs, ever.

[Jaimas]

Cuz don't expect IG to ever get direct Bassy buffs, ever.

This is because every time the Eldar players bitch about something, it gets changed, but if a legitimate Eldar problem is discussed, it's outright ignored.

Seriously, it's depressing how much love the space elves get.

[Slow_Runner]

And now back to the Vindicare, please.

[Jaimas]

Right. Does anyone else have any trouble with the 100% acc (but current DPS) whilst scope is active?

[fs_xyz]

No.
But his non scope mode also need accuracy buff. That is 80% for 7 seconds reload and one person.

[Rotlung]

I'm all for 100% accuracy with scope. Without scope, it's fine as it is. After, as had been mentioned before, "one chance is all I need." He ought to prove it.

For 100% to be valid for 2 shots, it's not a lot to ask for in my opinion.

[MaddoxX]

Without 100% Accuracy with scope and 2 times sight he will nearly never kill a fully upgraded force commander with a chaplaine+apocryte. About the infiltration why is it so expensive because at tier 3 or higher it is nearly impossible to not be detected. But to compensate it maybe the assasine could be change to a squad even a little more expensive to make more use of the inflation high cost and also because he is the only IG inflation unit remember and for other race that pay the same amount to be able to build an army of infiltrated unit and about Tau they don't have to pay inflation to mass effective AV unit + he is ineffective against vehicle spam which is an often used strategie by most player and will prevent him from dying instantly when is being detected.

[Arcinatus]

maddoxx, tip for the future. use more periods / proper grammar, i could just BARELY read that...

anyway, i think decreasing the cost of the infiltration research, plus giving him 100% accuracy whilst using his scope, would make the vindicare a better choice.

and i know whate i wrote isn't COMPLETLY proper grammar....ha

[SpArTy]

Leave the assassin alone unless the rest of IG is getting toned down. Cheers.

[Arcinatus]

ig hater eh sparty? :0