[SS 1.0] Rangers are still broken

[Jaimas]

Yes, they are. Played IG or SM vs. Eldar lately? No? If so, you'd see how absolutely obscene Rangers are. Even with successive tonings-down, Rangers remain a severe issue and definitely warrant further discussion and analysis.

The reason Rangers are currently overpowered, for the unaware, is quite simple: They have excellent range and reasonably high damage, ridiculously high morale damage, and access to both Fleet of Foot and Infiltrate - and all these on a T-1 unit with 100% accuracy and negligably less HP than a Scout (and with nearly double the squad size).

Individually, this unit wouldn't be quite so bad - but it's complete rape on several maps, and is particularly brutal against SM and IG, due to how effectively Rangers can lock down any attempt to expand your econ. Any detector attempt from either race is easily dealt with, either via FOF or blatant chip-shotting, and if you try sending a commander against them, the Rangers will break it in one volley, since they can manage to suck off several hundred Morale points in a single salvo.

The proposed fix is quite simple: Delay Ranger infiltrate until Tier 2. Your thoughts?

[The_nuketrooper]

Agreed - the rest of eldar untis (most notably the reapers) are more than able to compensate for the loss of invisibility and thanks to FoF they can still be 100% effective in the hands a decent player . Still lack of invisibility will give the other races some chance to fight/tie them.

[Makenshi]

I'm all for bumping their infiltration for T2, but more for consistence - which would reinforce my claims of kicking Mandrake infiltration to T2 as well... I suffer a lot in their hands ¬¬

I say this because I've seen what 4Servant and other good Eldar player's can do with Rangers even without infiltration, and althought they're experts, it's possible to do what they do to some extent - specially in the beginning of the games, where there are less squads to micro.

My vote is: bump infiltration to T2 and nerf accuracy from 100% to 80%. Farseer can still use Guide on them, so it's not an overnerf - I consider it an encouragement to use the witch. Don't flame me, Akranadas

Than switch prices between Bonesinger and Tau Earth Caste Builder and Eldar will be even more balanced. And to seal the "broken infiltration" problem forever, switch Pathfinders and Stealthsuits - not going to happen, I know... just remembering it for modders and DoW 2

Off-topic note: oh, don't throw away the 100% accuracy, give it to the poor Vindicare Assassin

[streak]

Rangers are still good without infil, in fact vs races with strong detection I still build rangers w/no infil.

But vs stuff like SM with weak detection, it'd be really good if you could have a detector that can at least match rangers' range. It's really painful having to eat a volley of ranger fire before seeing them, and not knowing where they are until it is too late. This leads to a lot of pain vs. an eldar that micros his rangers well. Same with eldar mirrors, you're always gonna build your own rangers simply cause even with warlock detection, you'll still be getting good shots off outside of warlock detection range.

I feel that if you've invested into a detector, and you have that detector in the same area as the rangers, you should be able to neutralize the infiltration advantage of rangers.

[steel_tomatoes]

Agree with Jaimas although I don't struggle with this as IG as much as I do as SM. The CS with psycher can chase those rangers around all day and they will get very few shots off (I even use the occasional strip soul on them since he doesn't seem to bother with farseer usually). Waste of the CS I know but consider how much investment the eldar puts into ranger + infiltrate + reinforce. Then you've just gotta match Guardsmen + commie against reapers...good luck.

Bottom line I think stealthsuits, skulls and gretchins should be the only T1 invisible units, as they do no damage in T1. Actually if it was up to me I would put off grot hide until T2 too, it can make the ork early eco a bit untouchable in some match ups.

[SpArTy]

Funny thing is rangers dont even need infiltration.

[White_Pointer]

Actually if it was up to me I would put off grot hide until T2 too, it can make the ork early eco a bit untouchable in some match ups.

I wouldn't. With nerfed banners and big shootas it's a lot harder than it used to be for an ork to take and hold the map and I'm often finding grot infiltration to be a saving grace that allows me to get a foothold on a point. I find in some matchups it's almost essential to research it as soon as you can or you can forget about securing any kind of map control.

Anyway, to the topic of rangers...I don't think they are that much of a problem for IG really...as steel_tomatoes mentioned, the CS with a psyker and priest pretty much keeps pace with them and neutralises them for long enough for you to secure your points and start pushing out. They are also nothing that a turret can't stop too. SM is the only race that really has a hard time with rangers I think...so I'm not sure if moving the infiltration to tier 2 is really an appropriate fix. Having said that, I agree with the others that have said that most good Eldar players won't care about the move of infiltration to tier 2 as they are good enough to maximise the potential of rangers even without being invisible. The early infiltration is probably overkill. But if you look at it from an Eldar player's perspective, you're adding yet another upgrade into an already very upgrade-crowded tier 2.

Here's an idea...how about we just jack up the price of the upgrade? Specifically the power part...pump it up to something like 80/105 - Something that actually makes Eldar build an early generator...and that stops them from doing no-gen invisible ranger builds. It may not delay the infiltration itself by that much considering the majority of Eldar players open with a gen after the aspect portal anyway - but it cuts out that no-gen option if they want invisible rangers, and it stops them building that extra reaper squad...and it's really the combination of invisible rangers and reapers that make your life hell early game.

White_Pointer

[steel_tomatoes]

But if you look at it from an Eldar player's perspective, you're adding yet another upgrade into an already very upgrade-crowded tier 2.

I can just see it now...FD will take an extra minute to come out if he still has his rangers and wants them infiltrated when he hits T2. Oh, the humanity!

Here's an idea...how about we just jack up the price of the upgrade? Specifically the power part...pump it up to something like 80/105
White_Pointer

Why not. What you'd probably see is less eldar players infiltrating the rangers straight away, as of course they are still effective without it. It makes the total price of rangers look somewhat obscene but then again they are a pretty obscene unit.

Another thing I hate about infiltrated rangers is their effectiveness vs gens and LPs. 3.0dps isn't necessarily high for T1 unit but high for an anti morale sniper unit IMO. Without the early infiltrate at least you'll notice your gen or LP getting shot at prior to the big boom.

[Graydoom]

Holy crap Jaimas you really hate eldar don't you? Seriously though, I agree with moving infiltration to T2 but I wouldn't jack up the cost as well. Leaving it in T1 and jacking up the cost probably wouldn't solve the problem. I play eldar pretty fequently and usually don't infiltrate rangers until T2 anyways. I would be fine with a nerf to their morale damage and a reduction to their accuracy to 80% in T1. But then have it scale back up with the first optics upgrade in T2.

[D-coy]

Maybe increasing their reinforce, reload and setup time a bit, instead of upping their cost(s) would remove the imbaness?

And move invis to tier 2.

And nerf their hp as they're Eldar. Make them more fragile, they can have FoF.

That way they'd be easier to catch and harm.

(And yes, I'm against Eldar imba favoritism since DoW day 1 and have been against the whole race design since WA.)

Cheers

[ImmortalChaos]

I'd reduce their HP but nothing more than that. Just make a major micro mistake more punishable.

[Armadaeus]

Give them infiltration at Tier 1, but reduce their HP as well as taking FoF away. That way, people are happy. Hopefully.


Except Jaimas :P

[ViS]

Reduce their HP by ~10%, increase the cost of infiltration to 75/100. How would that play out, in your opinions?

[rqmedes]

rangers need fixing they are plain broken, games are won or lost in tier1

[controls]

I always felt that Rangers were already fragile. Maybe reduce their accuracy and sight radius, and then scale both back with targeting optics.


Even though they're snipers, I think that a sight radius of 40 in Tier 1 seems a little off. Most Tier 1 infantry have a radius of 25 (FW have 15). Maybe reduce to 30, or 35 like their range.

[White_Pointer]

I'd reduce their HP but nothing more than that. Just make a major micro mistake more punishable.

They don't need an HP reduction. They already get minced pretty quickly if you manage to spot them and catch them. It's the "spotting" and "catching" parts that are tricky - namely infiltration and FoF.

Increase the cost of the infiltration research and you'll go a long way to solving the issue I think.

White_Pointer

[fs_xyz]

Controls had a valid point...
Sight range and/or weapon range nerf so their range is under or the same with detection radius and they need spotter to shoot.

[farseer_derek]

decrease health and increase infil cost to 75/100 or 100/75....
keep everything else as is

change reapers a tad (remove FoF, increase dps, increase cost (220/10 start and 75-80 reinforce imo) and put F dragon weight down to a reasonable level so they get knockback from some high disruption weapons

eldar fixed

[Old Painless]

Rangers fixes :

Decrease accuracy to 85% - naturally reduces morale damage.

Increase cost to buy and reinforce to 50/10 each.

Reapers :

Reduce HP to 385 from 450 inline with Banshees.

[farseer_derek]

reapers are meant to be tough although i agree they either need a health nerf or a speed nerf (no fof...) id rather it was more fluffy and they got rid of FoF to be honest... my changes above your post for them are good imo, it also makes them look more like what they are meant to be (in tt they are stronger (better armour save) and do more damage than fw) i think if there are 2 choices to make a unit balanced and one of them makes them fluffier... than that choice should be chosen (imo) but this is getting sidetracked.... my fault back to rangers agree with you on that btw although i'd also make infil a tad costlier... its not like the eldar eco can't afford it

[mlai]

Dark Reapers also used to have a setup time of about the same as SM HBs.

[Deunan]

Yes, but this setup time was countered with obscene damage to heavy infantry.
You give them this set up now, and no one will ever use them.

The problem with the proposed ranger infiltrator cost are two things.
While you have multiple mandrake squads to infiltrate, you only have one ranger squad. Also T2 rangers against many rangers suddenly use a big asset, due to the sudden emergence of blatant morale immune units.
To be honest, I've never met an eldar who won against an SM unless he pushed him back in t1. The moment rangers get strongly hit, this will become quite a feat.

[MoschBoy]

To be honest, I've never met an eldar who won against an SM unless he pushed him back in t1. The moment rangers get strongly hit, this will become quite a feat.

then you have watched the wrong ones. also, "unless he pushed him back in tier 1"... i mean seriously, have you ever seen an eldar NOT doing that?

[mlai]

Yes, but this setup time was countered with obscene damage to heavy infantry.
You give them this set up now, and no one will ever use them.

And now this setup time is necessary to counter the obscene damage to _everything_.
Remember this is a unit which comes out in tier 1.
You can decrease the setup time by 1/2 with 1st optics upgrade, then another 1/2 with 2nd optics upgrade.

[Old Painless]

Is there damage that 'obscene' when coupled with there high cost ?

It's not like they can get HBs or flamers.

[mlai]

Their high cost is because they come standard with "HBs or flamers."
Hey, OP, please show us some reps of DRs losing to other infantry without their HWs. Hell, for cost, even.
Maybe if DRs have setup, then spamming them alone won't work and Eldar will have to -gasp- coordinate mixed unit types.

[SpArTy]

If rangers line of sight and squad size was smaller there wouldn't be so many problems.

Fun trivia; its possible to snipe stationary pathfinders with unupgraded rangers even after kauyon upgrades without being spotted!

[Old Painless]

I have plenty of my early sucky DR micro getting them whupped.

But then i found that everybody likes to stand and trade ranged fire rather than cc them so i started winning.

[controls]

Fun trivia; its possible to snipe stationary pathfinders with unupgraded rangers even after kauyon upgrades without being spotted!

That's pretty good evidence of the point I'm making. >__<

[ImmortalChaos]

They don't need an HP reduction.

Not really. They get cut down fairly quickly when found in a bad situation- yes. This is good gameplay. Fact is, however fast they get cut down, it obviously isnt fast enough. Reduce their HP to make them get torn apart when detected, and micro mistakes will be punishable, rangers will be more reliant on their infiltration and keeping aware of their position (and thus much less compatable with no gen reaper builds), and generally function the same as they do now but actually having a weakness. A HP reduction to somewhere around 220-230 (60-50 HP reduction) will make them about as tough as DE warriors (who have 250 of an inferior armor type), which IMO are at about the toughness rangers should be when they are spotted.

Think about it- if you lose track of a 4-5 man DE warrior squad and fail to correctly micro it away from an army/LP2 on its own, it will die, fast. However, with good reaction time and micro, you'll likely not lose a single warrior. This is very similar to how rangers should work. Problem is they dont. They simply have too much HP of their armor to really be killed effectively in the small scraps of time you have when you outplay the eldar in order to kill the buggers.

Increasing the cost of rangers limits options. If infiltration gets bumped up in cost any more, it will be a completely and totally useless unit due to how much it slows your teching/econ against any race bar perhaps SM/DE if their infiltration remains weak early game. Same goes for reducing their damage/morale damage. Either they won't change at all or they'll become utterly inferior to reapers.

There is a very fine line between overpowering and useless. I personally think rangers sit very close to that line (in terms of damage and cost). Making them fullfill the RTS-manditory role of "counterable unit" rather than pushing them off the metaphorical cliff of balance is just the obviously wiser decision to me.

[Snake1311]

Remember this is a unit which comes out in tier 1.

This would have been a viable argument if fast-teching wasn't present.

[ImmortalChaos]

Fast-teching isn't present...

[mlai]

Rangers should be 250 hps of inf_med, the same as DE Warriors.
And Imm answered Snake for me.

[ImmortalChaos]

250 inf med, 220 inf high, same thing. I just suggested the HP change alone because it'd be easier. 2 mins instead of mabey 3 to change it on notepad.

[mlai]

It's not the same, because there are still dps differences received between Inf_med and _hi.
Also, what could be easier than making a Ranger have the exact same durability as a Warrior? You already had a test subject for the past 3 months.

[ImmortalChaos]

Is like I said, it'd just be quicker to change it in your document editing program

I'd have suggested changing the HP to 250 and armor type to inf_med myself (in fact, I typed it into my post originally and edited it out later) but changed my mind for the extremely lazy friendly suggestion of just reducing the HP more.

[Chaos Von Draco]

So does everyone agree that rangers just need to lose some hp like 50 or so and maybe a armor type change to a lower class right?

[Danustar]

Infantry Medium and 15 sec reinforcement then leave em alone

[White_Pointer]

There is a very fine line between overpowering and useless. I personally think rangers sit very close to that line (in terms of damage and cost). Making them fullfill the RTS-manditory role of "counterable unit" rather than pushing them off the metaphorical cliff of balance is just the obviously wiser decision to me.

Increasing the cost of the infiltration research is not going to suddenly make rangers useless Immortal. Increasing the cost of rangers themselves might, but not the infiltration. And I'm not suggesting increasing ranger cost. Just the cost of infiltration.

I believe reducing their HP will actually tip them over that "metaphorical cliff of balance" that you are trying to avoid happening. An HP reduction is an overnerf. They don't need an HP reduction. You admitted yourself they get torn up pretty darn quickly already. The problems are spotting them and catching them, not necessarily killing them once the other two pre-requisites are filled. If you can see them and catch them, they die fast enough already. Nerfing their HP is not going to solve the problems of "spotting" and "catching" them.

Bumping the cost of infiltration will slow their early game - yes...but that's half the point. Let's be honest here, it's not like Eldar actually need Rangers to dominate tier 1. They are just icing on the cake in most cases. Increase the cost of infiltration, and you not only solve the ranger problem, you solve the problem of Eldar's early game domination and map control too. Increasing the cost of infiltration so Eldar can no longer do "no-gen invisible ranger rush" builds is not going to suddenly make rangers useless. In fact as others have said in this thread, Rangers are actually pretty damn uber even without infiltration.

White_Pointer

[mlai]

How does giving Rangers the same durability as Warriors "push them over the cliff"??

Rangers cost 45 req 5 pow 10 sec.
Warriors cost 50 req 10 sec.

Rangers have FoF, infiltrate, range 35, sight 40.
Warriors are slower, can't infiltrate, range 22, sight 25.

Yet DE players try to use Warriors as their staple tier 1 unit without crying. Srsly Eldar is way too spoilt.

[phoenixzs]

I have always the problem to kill them not to spot them.

I play IG and one CS with Psyker can spot them good but they have freaking legs like the roadrunner.Even if your could be able to finish of some of them:They run back to a safe range and reinforce and all the crap starts again.Commander damage/morale damage of rangers should have a look also.

[White_Pointer]

Rangers cost 45 req 5 pow 10 sec.
Warriors cost 50 req 10 sec.

Rangers have FoF, infiltrate, range 35, sight 40.
Warriors are slower, can't infiltrate, range 22, sight 25.

Well let's see...for a start, Rangers cost power, Warriors don't. Rangers have a setup time. Warriors don't. Rangers cannot fire on the move. Warriors can. Rangers are hardcapped to 1 squad. Warriors aren't.

Plus, Warriors move at almost FoF speed as their base speed, Warriors do more damage than Rangers and get even better DPS after a tier 1 research to improve their accuracy. Warriors also get very good squad leaders in tier 1, rangers get no squad leaders at all.

Yet DE players try to use Warriors as their staple tier 1 unit without crying.

That's because Warriors are fricken good.

I have always the problem to kill them not to spot them.

I play IG and one CS with Psyker can spot them good but they have freaking legs like the roadrunner.

Exactly...but your problem of not being able to kill them is not due to their HP, it's due to FoF. Their HP is not a problem. Their infiltration and FoF are.

Increasing the cost of infiltration has the double-effect of also possibly delaying FoF research, especially if FoF research gets a cost increase as well to something like 80/80. There's some food for thought for you.

White_Pointer

[s1_ONE]

infiltration cost has been increased so now its kinda expensive at the starting, and now getting it heavily depends on the MU considered: against orks/tau/cronz/sob its useless, and often also vs chaos/de..
its only worthy vs sm/ig, but as i sad it has it cost increased so you have to decide if massing or going infiltration..
the fact that all the people here start whining/opening nerf threads once they cant counter with no brain some strat is just embarrassing at all

Seriously guys, the only thing to do is slightly reducing DRs hp -__-

[mlai]

Rangers cost power, Warriors don't.

1. Eldar always build gen.
2. Conventional wisdom 1 pow = 2 req. So Ranger costs 5 req more than Warrior. Whoop.

Rangers have a setup time. Warriors don't. Rangers cannot fire on the move. Warriors can. Rangers are hardcapped to 1 squad. Warriors aren't.

35 range (without need of spotter) vs 22 range >>> set-up time.
FotM - IIRC, Warriors have same shit FotM as everyone else, even after Soulseeker. Except for Crons, FotM doesn't exist as an advantage in DoW, when comparing range unit types. For all intents, it's just graphical candy.
Whirlwind is hardcapped at 1, doesn't make it less stupid.
Move speed - 24 is still visibly faster than 20.
Damage - Nobody hates Rangers b/c of their dps.
Tier 2 - Nobody hates Rangers past tier 1.
Warrior goodness - You're missing my point that their speed/dps/acc upgrades don't negate the fact that they have to run up to your face to do their thing, while Rangers have the range and FoF to hang back. If someone who must run up to you, can live with their durability, then so can Rangers.

Exactly...but your problem of not being able to kill them is not due to their HP, it's due to FoF. Their HP is not a problem. Their infiltration and FoF are.

The problem is you can't change FoF, though I'd love to see it become a Soul Shrine research hehehh...
Ranger Infil being delayed is also good. But my point is that Warrior durability doesn't make them UP. Warriors live with it and they're frontline units.

[Chris]

A good eldar player will never delay his FoF research, they know it's far too valuable. Whether or not rangers are infiltrated is really a moot point in a lot of matchups, it's a nice bonus that just makes an already frustrating unit even more frustrating. I don't understand how nerfing their HP could push them over the edge and make them "useless". You just admitted yourself that a big problem with them is that they can't be caught... so if they can't be caught then their HP is pretty much moot.

I'd suggest toning their accuracy down so that they don't almost insta-break squads single handedly with 1 salvo.

[phoenixzs]

I'd suggest toning their accuracy down so that they don't almost insta-break squads single handedly with 1 salvo.

Although I am in agreement of a nerf I would not support that one probably.it would make rangers useless.They should have a counter rather than a decrease in efficiency.

i would say an heavy setup time increase could be the better way.I mean they cannot run to the edge of the world shoot and then run to the other edge and then again shoot.If the setup time was reasonably long it would be more of a suitable hunter unit that requires to ambush actualy;not just run shoot run cycle

[mlai]

They already take 2 secs to set up. Any longer and they can become impractical.
No other squad has 100% acc. It stands to reason Rangers shouldn't either.
Recommend acc at 80%, with compensation to dps so it's the same. This gives a nerf to morale dps.
Other nerfs would have to be eliminated or toned down, if this takes place.

[phoenixzs]

They already take 2 secs to set up. Any longer and they can become impractical.
No other squad has 100% acc. It stands to reason Rangers shouldn't either.
Recommend acc at 80%, with compensation to dps so it's the same. This gives a nerf to morale dps.
Other nerfs would have to be eliminated or toned down, if this takes place.

I dont think it will bring anything.It would still do an awesome uncoutrable job.

They have too much range to be impratical I think.2.7 minutes or 2.5 could be the thing.They are snipers for godsake they are not shoot and run units.Since they dont have any reduction in rate of fire they would still do great at support role if uncountered or untouched.

[White_Pointer]

1. Eldar always build gen.
2. Conventional wisdom 1 pow = 2 req. So Ranger costs 5 req more than Warrior. Whoop.

No, they don't always build gen. There are several no-gen builds Eldar players use and increasing the cost of infiltration, as well as the cost of FoF, will totally eliminate the "no-gen invisible ranger rush". If they want invisible rangers AND FoF they are going to need to invest heavily in power in tier 1.

And really, tier 1 power is a lot more valuable than req and in general is harder to come by. You can't do a blanket "2 power = 1 req" kind of comparison (to be honest any comparison between the two resources like that is stupid IMO).

35 range (without need of spotter) vs 22 range >>> set-up time.

Disagree. When you move at speed 20 like Warriors do, a 2 second setup time on rangers can mean a big difference.

FotM - IIRC, Warriors have same shit FotM as everyone else, even after Soulseeker. Except for Crons, FotM doesn't exist as an advantage in DoW, when comparing range unit types. For all intents, it's just graphical candy.

You've missed the point. Yes Warriors have the same 15% FoTM as everyone else. The difference here is Rangers can't FoTM AT ALL. 15% > 0%

They already take 2 secs to set up. Any longer and they can become impractical.

Scout Snipers which basically fill the same role have a 2.5 second setup and they are not impractical, and they only have 80% accuracy too. Bumping ranger setup time to 2.5 seconds as well won't suddenly make them useless.

No other squad has 100% acc. It stands to reason Rangers shouldn't either.

Yeah, you're totally right. I mean aside from Scout and SM tac flamers, Ork burnas, SoB flamers, Guardsmen and Kasrkin grenade launchers, Entrenched Broadsides and Crisis suit flamers, no other squad has 100% accuracy.

EDIT: Add Cultist grenades to that list too.

Note that I'm not disagreeing with you that Rangers shouldn't have 100% accuracy (they should indeed probably be toned down to around 80%), I'm just pointing out a flaw in your logic


White_Pointer

[Snake1311]

Yeah, you're totally right. I mean aside from Scout and SM tac flamers, Ork burnas, SoB flamers, Guardsmen and Kasrkin grenade launchers, Entrenched Broadsides and Crisis suit flamers, no other squad has 100% accuracy.

Note that I'm not disagreeing with you that Rangers shouldn't have 100% accuracy (they should indeed probably be toned down to around 80%), I'm just pointing out a flaw in your logic

Flawed
All those are area-of-effect weapons. A grenade thrown roughly at the middle of a squad and missing completely would just be stupid; same with spraying a cone of flame.

Judge not lest ye be judged yourself