Infiltration/Stealth in DoW2

[Chaingun]

If this has already been discussed, feel free to link to another thread and close this down.

Infiltration as it worked in Winter Assault was perhaps realistic, but it was too poor. For those who don't know, as stealth unit was invisible until it A) was detected by a detector, or B) fired a weapon at which point IIRC it became visible for some time.

Infiltration in Dark Crusade and Soulstorm is IMO too powerful and highly unrealistic. It's possible to get completely raped by stuff like stealthsuits or cloaked monolith without any chance of retaliation, because certain races have inadequate detection. It's unrealistic because how the hell wouldn't you fire back if you saw shots coming from a certain place? You would perhaps miss a lot but at least you'd not just stand idle while fired at.

For realism and a lesser "omgwtfpwned"-factor I'd like to see something different in DoW2.

My initial idea is a mix of WA and DC infilitration: A stealth unit can have 3 different visibility states: 1) Completely invisible: The unit cannot be seen at all by opposing player or his units. This is the default state as long as stealth unit isn't seen by detector or is firing. 2) Partially visible: This state is activated whenever the stealth unit fires. It makes it transparent to player, and his units may fire at it. However, there's a -50 to -75% accuracy penalty when trying to hit it. (Potentially variable depending on unit, monolith should be easier to hit than a stealthsuit squad.) 3) Visible: Stealth unit can be fired at without accuracy penalty. This state is activated when stealth unit is seen by a detector.

The aim of the system described above is to avoid the completely absurd situations where 2 or 3 stealthsuit squads can totally level a base filled with defenders.

Note: I don't hate Tau, I just took stealthsuits as an example because they're the most obvious.

[stefanw_nl]

Great idea! I wonder how stealth is used in TT?

But i quess it's perfect the way it is in DC and SS... You see the stealthsuits firing lightly but you cannot fire onit... But the only way to hit them is with bombardements.

What if you can shoot where ever you want to shoot.. like in CnC >> when you can press ctrl + rightclick to fire somewhere... Then you can hit an stealth unit... I would like to see this implemented!

[nicoca]

@ stefanw_nl

There isn't nay "stealth" in tabletop in the way DOW has implemented it. INfiltration allows units to set up further onto the battlefield at the start of the game instead of being limited to deployment zones.

[Fightingfirst]

There should be some exceptions for what chaingun mentioned, for instance, SM scout snipers, if i remember correctly there rifle has a built in silencers, this would mean even if they did fire the weapon no one unless they were really super human should be able to pinpoint the exact location especially if the scouts are hiding in a building. Perhaps if they kept firing then overtime, yes they might eventually reach stage 2 of what chaingun mention.

[Anthonace]

However, units like stealth suits and grey knights benifited from rules that required enemies to roll dice to see if they were in 'spotting range'. This could be reflected by having stealth units become visible if too close to the enemy, expecially if they are not in cover or they are moving.

I'd like to see stealth used in various ways in the game. Chaos marines may use stealth as an ambushing system, completely useless once the units have been spotted. Some units may have it as an escape tactic, as well as an ambush ability, while units like Tau Stealth suits would use their infiltration/stealth in a traditional way, or in the way suggested by the OP.

[stefanw_nl]

@nicoca
Thanks, that's clear now!

@Anthonace
I agree for the TT this would be a ambushing system because you can't realy cloak something... but on the PC you can... So why not implement this...

How is this in Fluf backstory.. i havn't read many books of WH4k

Like by the Inquisition.. they have Infiltrated right?

[Mind Strike]

Sorry guys but I have to throw a spanner in the works here.

You can attack invisible units without any detectors being involved whatsoever . I have killed many an enemy stealthsuit with a couple of frags. Ok, not strickly using bolters as such but still can work well and get you out of a sticky situation.

Totally agree with lots of comments, such as the current situtaion with invisible units, must change sooner rather than later

[darkpriest99]

well i would like to seperate cloaking and infiltration. Infiltration should work as it is in CoH, cloak should work as infiltration in DoW

[Mirage Knight]

Infiltration - as in being able to deploy a unit anywhere on the field...kinda like how Fallschirmjäger deploy in COH. Click the call in icon, click a building, and presto - a squad!

Me likes that idea

[Eisenhorn538]

I agree entirely with the OP.

It strikes a perfect balance between imba and useless.

However what I don't want is for infiltrated units to be automatically detected if they move too close to units like some people have suggested. It makes it far too easy for people to just charge the infiltrators with cheep units rather than using proper detectors.

[Versian]

So, ok. Cloaking and Infiltration are different things. Infiltration is deploying anywhere on the battlefield... isn't this... "Deep Strike"?

[Mirage Knight]

In TT, Infiltration is when units are deployed anywhere on the table before any others.

Deep Striking units are deployed during normal gameplay.

[the_almighty_moo]

i allways thought that certain units should be allowed to shoot whilst stealthed only, like necrons with viel, stealthsuits and the vindicare assassin, however i think the WA stealth system is the better of the two

[Versian]

Ah, thanks for the clearing up, Mirage.

Well, back to the topic. I'll have to say that a combination of both is indeed correct. There are exceptions where the DC infiltration makes more sense, like with SM scouts and Vindicare Assassins. I just hate looking at my Space Marines taking hacks and slashes from Cultists and Mandrakes without responding somehow.

So what is my proposition? Well, DC infiltration is sort of reasonable for ranged units, but Melee units could simply get a speed bost and ambush the enemy. Imagine Kroot Carnivores and Hounds being infiltrated, doing a feral leap and becoming visible in mid-air. I think it´s quite reasonable.

[Malavon]

I don't care how infiltration is done as much as how balanced detection is.

[Thuraash]

I like OP's suggestion. It's just odd to see your troops getting sprayed with rapid-fire laser or buried under a hail of bolter bullets and doing nothing about it. I do like the idea of the accuracy modifier varying with who's shooting. Scouts and rangers should be harder to find than CSMs or mandrakes, simply because it's easy to see where the former are shooting from, and the latter are in sustained melee. This also forces an assassin to make a single kill, then run away really fast.
Also, troops could keep shooting for a little while in the general direction of where stealth units were shooting from, even after they've moved.

[Fightingfirst]

Relic could make it where every unit can see cloaked or infiltrated units but only at a very reduced LOS only seeing the cloaked or infiltrated unit once they are really close. For example if SM scouts are a few feet away hiding, even an ork could probably spot them. However if they are in a tower hiding and shooting at the orks from quite a way away then they should stay hidden. This would stop cloaked units fighting units in CC without being attacked but still give cloaked troops an advantage at range, i.e. snipers.

[Vrugar Gutslice]

What kind of advantage could you give more me lee orientated infiltrated troops then? Ie. Cultists, Kommandos, etc.

[Noble]

You could make it so that they do high damage when striking while infiltrated, and then offset that with extremely low durability.

[Vrugar Gutslice]

Well the units I mentioned don't exactly have what you'd call superior armour. Both Kommandos and Cultists wear the equivalent of standard orkish armour. The real problem also boils down to the level of stealth detection that units have.

Too much stealth detction from units and the more melee inclinced become useless, too little and the ranged inclinced become too powerful.

[_vertinox_]

I think its just silly to have stealthed or infiltrated units to attack without recourse.

If something unseen starts shooting at you, your first reaction is to start shooting back in its general direction. Sure your accuracy is not going to be that great but if you and a whole bunch of persons with you with full auto-weapons you might get lucky.

Also with stealthed units with melee... If someone invisible start wailing on you, I'm sure it behooves you do swing back and you might get lucky.

[Versian]

The proof is in the movie Predator, when the damn thing surprises them in one scene, all the Commandos spray the Jungle with firepower, the dude, despite being invisible got hit.

I want to see THAT

[Flagg]

Versian, I kinda like that idea. Would the idea of having no friendly fire appeal to anyone? As in, anything running in the middle of a firefight, whether friend or foe, slealthed or unstealthed, taking hits, be a good idea?

[Verruna]

not sure what your saying, friendly fire in a RTS is a bad idea, besides for things like bombs, and artillery

[Versian]

I've always thought that the reason we don't have friendly fire in DoW was because your own troops could be potentially more destructive than the enemy. Imagine being the unfortunate guy that stands in front of the whole squad as they open fire to the horde of enemies coming at you.

[Grim McMillan]

Dark Angel N00b's idea is a very good one. Having CoH's infiltration system is much more realistic and since Relic are supposedly utilising many elements from CoH, this would be another step in the right direction.

[Exsequien]

I just hate looking at my Space Marines taking hacks and slashes from Cultists and Mandrakes without responding somehow.

That would be solved with the 3 state system that Chaingun mentioned - you could aim and shoot at the infiltrated cultists/mandrakes when they attack you in melee, but because they are still hard to see your soldiers have a hard time hitting them.

About the scouts/Vindicare: there could be a 4th state for them. If they are far away from any enemy, they are completely invisible (can't be targeted) but if a unit gets too close to them, they will be get "state 2 visible" - you can shoot at them with an accuracy penalty.

[Blackheart]

I think it'd be better to use the three ways that are done in CoH.

1: Basic stealth, a toggle (or permanent for some units). always deactivated at short range (think melee). Depending on the unit, it could reduce speed or break when they attack as well (for infiltrators that aren't using some advanced magic or technology to infiltrate, such as ratlings or scouts), but if it does break, they get a damage and accuracy bonus to their first fiew shots from out of hiding.

2: Hiding in cover. Stay in cover for several seconds without attacking, and they'll turn invisible. Any order to make them move, use abilities, or attack would deactivate it. Attacks that break the stealth gain a damage bonus.

3: Click powers. Activate, and gain temporary invisibility, during which the unit can attack but not be attacked, although it is still effected by area of effect attacks and mines. Depending on the unit, attacking may break it, or attacking in melee would break it. No bonus damage for breaking it.

This way we have more variety in how stealth could work. Either way, generally speaking entering in melee with a unit would break invisibility, but they'd gain a bonus to their attacks for breaking it, sort of an "ambush bonus".

[Darac]

Regarding infiltration and stealth, the CoH method of stealth is very good and would be alright to replace DoW's infiltration system.

[Exsequien]

Only problem: They get visible in melee range, that would make Mandrakes quite vulnerable =/

[Blackheart]

That's fine, they'd get an offensive bonus from revealing themselves for the first few attacks. So it would just be encouraging taking risks.

[Wrapper]

I still don't get the very idea of invisible meleeing troops (except maybe Lyctor and Mantis. And even these guys would only be invisible before they attack. After they attacked they are indeed visible but hard to hit back due to incredible speed.).

Down with the Invisible Meleeing Grots of Doom! ;-)

And yes, CoH infiltration/stealth system makes perfect sense here as long as it's not applied to vehicles of any kind.

[jon_the_d]

still think we need just the following states of visibility:
-visible
-hidden (units actually in hiding, NOT moving anywhere. not all troops should be able to. Ideally this would be a combination of cover, unit stance, and line of sight. once found, you are visible again.)
-invisible (for units who have some sort of real, genuine invisibilty capability, e.g tecnologically, psychically or genetically induced invisibility)

units like scouts and rangers, should possibly be able to hide easier, and in more places, but once located, they should be pretty much as easy to hit as any other troop you're looking at, chameleoline cloak or not. slight accuracy modifier, but nothing more.

[omgitsduane]

The idea that there are "balancers" that effect how or when and even IF an infiltrated unit will be spotted really make me excited.

although I do like having cultists and csm infiltrated later in game for that split second advantage against an unweary foe sending the detecting squad last, having certain units easier to spot than others, walking, cover and negative cover all should effect how they are perceived.

The CSM ambush makes a very good point, place them in a choke on cease fire, wait for the enemy to engage your base and WHAM!

Any enemies not killed will have to walk either through your base to escape or through your actual marines, and those guys are always pissed.

Just a few ideas.

[Sturmtruppen]

invi-melee is stupid, invis-shooting is fine, as long as its not OP, maybe a speed penalty while moving, but everything has to decloak when something gets too close, dectors units can get better radius

[ErichTheGraham]

This is another topic on which I feel that copying off of CoH is pretty much the best course. Have a couple of detection units that can see camo'd units farther, but maybe melee ambush is a little harder to detect. I also agree that there should be some true invisibilty that does not reveal unless they are in detection range. In CoH, snipers decloak after each shot, maybe this would be a mechanic for hiding units but not invisible ones.

EDIT: Or alternately, I could have read sturms post better before posting mine. Oh well.

[Demonhorde]

The infiltration or invisibillity that is in CoH with the snipers is good enuff. dont change a good concept.

[Outlaw]

I agree, that the coh stealth modes would work fine.

They said in the previews that melee combat is rather rare and extremly effective against ranged troops. You have to carefully flank and outrun the enemy in cover and so on.

This is why I think the ability (i.e. for mandraks) to get to the enemy and perhaps a first strike surprise damage buff are very usable.

[Lasserith]

Melee stealth troops would be fine if they stayed invisible except during the last part of a strike IE: Invisible > Leap in > strike an enemy > turn vis > flip backwards > invisible > flip around to another side > leap in > strike repeat... Using animations that reflect a leap then cloak fighting style would allow melee infiltration to work and still be fair. Time for countering is given in this setup. Agree/Disagree anyone?

[Blackheart]

Then you might as well just make them ranged.

[widowson]

I think CoH stealth would work well.

Stealth units should *not* be able to attack you in mele' and open up with full auto yet remain hidden. Yes, the game's not "realistic" but it just seems off.

Stealth units should be scouts/snipers with long-range views and weapons that do what stealth units do. Scout, be a forward observer, or snipe high-ranking officers, but have to bail if an enemy unit gets too close when they're shooting.

That, I like. Like a real sniper, if he's not firing you won't see him unless you practically step on him, but once he opens up, he's still hard to find from a distance, but if close, you'll zoom in on him quickly.

[Sachiel]

Detection should work along the lines of when the unit is approaching the enemy's base or other important structure, or even certain HQ or Elite units, they should be found and have to retreat only a small distance.

I have found the infiltation good so far, I hope Relic doesn't mess with it too much.