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They either need to make this cost something or remove it from the game. Its akin to getting absolutely free off map v1. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you fire off a 25lber, and then do this, does it ignore the cool down as well as all of the range restrictions? or is it the other way around, you can a victor but still fire the 25lber without any the victor giving it a cool down after? It just seems a bit IMBA seeing as the Brits already have easy enough access to artillery.
Honestly, i do agree with you. If you use victor, it doesnt count on the normal cooldown, so after victor is over you can just fire the 25 pounder again with normal barrage. I always thought it was funny how you could basically double barrage a point for free.
Of the two things you suggested, i would rather have it be a cost as opposed to removing it from the game. Or if anything, make it so when you use victor it is essentially like using barrage with all your 25 pounders and start the cooldown timer for each one.
And another funny thing about it is the captain doesnt even have to be nearby. You just have to have line of sight on it and then you can call it in.
"The story's still the same, I've just personalized the name"
^^agreed it doubles an already bad arty game
Yes, im back
#4
I don't think I've ever used Victor Target because I rarely have more than one heavy artillery unit. Short of this double barrage that is mentioned above (learned something new today), why would you ever use Victor Target if you had only one 25lbr/priest?
Victor Target ignores range restrictions and fires all 25 pounders at the target.
so on a massive map like N13 a player could basically build a bunch of 25 pounders in his base and with the use of just some recon units you can basically have a 5-6 gun barrage on his base from your base.
#6
Does the CAPT have to be within visual range of the target?
no
Its behaviour is a little erratic sometimes.
For me it isn't imba, why? If you haven't rca at 2 vs 2 map or bigger the range of it is small and when you need support your ally it's very good, but it has 5 min. cooldown.(yes, you good see, 5 min. for free barrage) So if you really thinks it's imbalanced, increase cooldown for it for 2 min.
Are you guys sure you just need LOS and the cpt does not have to be nearby? I have used it quite a bit, and have noticed that:
a) the cpt freezes for a period of time while the smoke is dropping, and can only move again after the arty starts
b) it does ignore cooldown (but has a cooldown all its own)
c) require you to bring the cpt within his LOS of the target, similar to the munitions-costing off map abilities.
Besides, victor target REQUIRES on map artilery in order for it to work. It is doctrine-specific, and with a doctrine that is sadly lacking in abilities. It is an ability on a very fragile unit (occasional terminator bugs aside), that, in my experience, is required to be nearby for the ability to work.
I think is it balanced, though I will look into whether my cpt needs to be nearby or not for it to work.
TeaSeeOh (regarding lackluster Wehr T3): I can live with a StuG getting better armour/turret movement time. Fair enough, it really did need some changes so it wasn't deployable green cover.
Im positive the capt. doesnt have to be anywhere close to where you call it to. You could be half way across the map if you want to and still call it, as long as you have some sort of visual of the target (with another unit most likely).
Victor target should used like officer arty. Captain has to be there!
If you could balance brits in 2v2 you can start balance the pe in 1v1!Originally Posted by DrChengele
Ye he can be anywhere. He does sometimes want to get up close.
From my experience if you use the Victor Target ability while the cooldowns on your guns are reset (they are able to be fired) they will depress as soon as the V-Target is called.
All I had to do was tech to a captain and build multiple artillery positions to do this.
Let me see here...
185mp 30fu field support truck
250mp 15fu lieutenant
280mp sappers
1350mp 225fu 3x 25lb emplacements
300mp 35fu captain
so for the BARGAIN BASEMENT price of 2365 mp and 305 fuel you can use the Captain of your artillery and emplacement themed army in the very endgame to call down massive destroying artillery barrages on an opponent's base, providing he has walked up to it and it is within his sight range and any of the billion other units you could have built in the... oh... say... 10-15 minutes it took him to save up for all that doesn't grease the captain on the way.
Are you going to tell me for what is essentially a quarter of a very long game's entire resourcing you shouldn't get something devastating out of it? For the same price you could do a double Panther call in and a Tiger call in at the same time, and have the lebensraum left to blow a Resource Blitz and be ready on the next Tiger if yours goes down.
If the Axis had a unit that cost that much it would have to be a Maus.
This is the captain's end-game ability, this is an artillery themed army, this man can call down every gun on the map, regardless of range, every 3 minutes, this is how the brits break out of their long game turtle with a savage display of shock and awe. That means in four minutes, you get five artillery strikes.
I feel that the captain's power is meant to be outside the realm of the 25lbs, they're just there to facilitate his awesomeness as a unit.
Though I think it would be very interesting to see the Captains get different abilities depending on which doctrine tree you chose... say the Royal Artillery tree would give him victor target and Commandos would allow him to deploy with the next Commando unit that arrived on map. Something like that.
I don't mean for this to sound ranty, but the price on doing this sort of thing is huge, the game is basically over by the point someone can do this and it's just the last nail in the coffin when the Captain can call in a three to four gun Victor Target.
You're are very much at liberty to disagree. :P
Last edited by ZeroTwo; 21st May 08 at 12:27 PM.
i think its pretty balanced in 1v1 but becomes an issue in huge 2v2 and 3v3 maps when you can ignore all range and fire directly into enemy base with all of your artillery pieces all the way across the map and kill their HQ without them being able to do the same.
If I were to describe the British early game it would be a giant bastard wielding a sledgehammer the size of a small child. He moves slowly, but hits very hard and it is difficult to stop him. Continuing this metaphor, the Wehrmacht is a small agile man, equipped with a pair of daggers -Iaguz
The resources say its impossible, mabe but if youve ever played a 2v2 or up as axis you will know its more common than a tiger
I've never seen more then 2 25 pounders in 2 vs 2, simple answer- if you have much of them (3- 30 pop!) you have another problem- defense and stukas whose destroying your 25s
I wont insult you but if youve never seen more than 2 25 pounders in a 2v2 you havent played many 2v2
well it is partly an issue because the captain nor the guns have to be anywhere near his victor point for the ability to be used.
i play 4v4 i can get my US ally to do a Recon run and basically drop death on my enemies from One corner of the map to the Other.
the real issue is that if I go Arty insane, i can basically have a Free v1 strike every 3 minutes...
in 15 minutes your not going to have much of a base that isn't cratered.
and in the mean time, i can use my batteries to blast anything and everything that is trying to blast it, because the V target doesn't effect the guns cool down.
#19
Just tested this out and WOW! is all I can say. 2x 25lb'r and 2x Priest. Hit Victor, then did a Creeping with each unit directly after. It was absolutely laughable. The cloud of dirt was so thick it never even had a chance to settle before the "I WIN" screen popped up. LOL
Victor has to turn on the arty timers or it is way OP'd. Now I am staying outta Brit based Team games for sure.
Victor Target does not require a doctrine.
11 US / 11 Brit / 11 Wehr / 11 PE
#21
Victor target is easily fixable:
Find where the fucking Captain is and fill him full of lead. He makes it easier for you by being small and squishy and by revealing which map sector he is in.
In 1v1's Victor target is not a problem at all. Yes, it makes 25pdr's a bit more annoying but that's the general idea.
Oh sorry I forgot about green flare before artillery attack incoming- you see it and you can escape from artillery.And brits haven't green flare from any doctrine so I think it isn't problem
Splitmonkey: about 200 games isn't much? (I'm saying about all armies, at brits it's about 170)
This statement i totally useless. You build these thing always, So the victor target attack is a free extra.185mp 30fu field support truck
250mp 15fu lieutenant
280mp sappers
1350mp 225fu 3x 25lb emplacements
300mp 35fu captain
Victor target is easily fixable:
Find where the fucking Captain is and fill him full of lead. He makes it easier for you by being small and squishy and by revealing which map sector he is in.
If the captain is in in his base well protected far away from your troops there is not much you can do about it. @ Hydro: So how can i retrat my base when green flares pop up next to my HQ? I must have missed the emergency HQ fly out button.Oh sorry I forgot about green flare before artillery attack incoming- you see it and you can escape from artillery.And brits haven't green flare from any doctrine so I think it isn't problem
If the captain would have been forced to provide LOS, and if this would affect the cool down, it would be fine. Otherwise it´s OP in my opinion. Maybe not a issue in 1vs1, but in teamgames.
I will use Google before I ask dumb questions!
Like red flares in another case, but only one case I see to it. Air recon (pe cannons should be shoot down first 8 planes) and then target victor, but it isn't specific of victor target but usa/brits. And at this moment maybe we will think about axis v1 without flares but with sniper as observator you can drop it at hq. (Yes I know it's late game, but works same) About restrictions to it I agree in someone case it would be have price, but it's player decision how to use it. If game is double brits it's hard to get close and have drop it under hq at this one moment, but as I said brits/usa have much options from sniper to air recon.@ Hydro: So how can i retrat my base when green flares pop up next to my HQ? I must have missed the emergency HQ fly out button.
#25
Well, if you REALLY wanted to nerf it, give it a vet 1 requirement like Heroic Charge. This forces the Captain to actually get off his arse and take a look around the map and learn all the good firing positions before Victor Target-ing it. It also means you have a chance of knocking him off before Victor Target becomes a problem and therefore makes it a fair bit easier to counter because if you see the Cpt walking around and you don't kill him despite the fact he's right bloody there, then it's entirely your fault.
Some correct information about 25lbers and victory target.
Victory Target's cool down in 3 minutes.
Victory Target can only used on any area that isn't in the fog of war. It does not have to been his site range. It can be off a strategic point, it can be off an allied unit, it can be off another one of your units.
Victory can be used by the captain anywhere on the map. The captain doesn't have to be in the same sector as the 25 lbs or priest. He can be in enemy territory.
To activate the ability he can't be in a building or a trench. Which is kinda weird.
A 25lbr barrage cool down is 1.5 minutes. The barrage last about 10 seconds. This means that a 25lber with a captain can shoot about once every 1 minute or so.
You can view the captain as giving a single 25lber a 33% cool down reduction. Or the ability to shoot back to back shots every second time. This is at its best, you generally aren't shooting the 25lber the second its cool down has finished.
#27
It isn't a time based issue. Even 1 25lb'r and 1 Priest in tandem can devastate an enemy base, with 1 Victor attack and a pair of creeping barrages following immediately.
Even in a tight 1v1 that combo is more than achievable, heck take out the Priest for a second 25lb'r, and packing this new knowledge, the next enemy I face when Brits will feel the wrath of Victor and I will feel dirty as his base disappears, but will also be victorious. Which may have been the case anyways but one can't always be certain...
If the US can have SR, then the Brits can have Victor, until the timer Nerf that is sure to come.
I'm still sticking with imbalanced. There's nothing else in the game that can do so much devastation for absolutely free. If called in on your base, there's no way you can escape it, unless you're insanely fast with your micro and can move all your troops out of the blast zone. Its an ability that can be used anywhere on the map like normal arty, but is absolutely free (sure you have to have a least one 25lber, but its not even doc. specific).
Ive heard of an ability like that. Its called boobytraps. Booby traps can easily take out full squads.There's nothing else in the game that can do so much devastation for absolutely free. If called in on your base, there's no way you can escape it, unless you're insanely fast with your micro and can move all your troops out of the blast zone.
Also, you do get green smoke to show you that the victor is coming, plus about the same time you would normally have on a OMA to get out of the smoke.
The Captain isn't free.I'm still sticking with imbalanced. There's nothing else in the game that can do so much devastation for absolutely free
I think that it should only work within the line of sight of the captain. I always assumed it worked that way until I saw this thread and it would be way more balanced that way.
#32
The Green smoke might save his foot sloggers but it will not prevent what could amount to the lose of an HQ and 2 or 3 other structures. A well placed creeping barrage, let alone 2, can be utterly devastating.
As for continued LOS, run a BC through the defenses after the Victor has chased of all the foot sloggers.
No, I don't think so.
I think I'm highlighting that it's an end-game ability that takes a lot of time, effort, and co-ordinated defending to build up to.
If you're sitting on 2500mp+ 300fu+ of base emplacements and buildings in a long multiplayer game and you've been actively fighting and defending yourself the whole time as well. Your opponents have let you sit on these things the entire game to build up a massive battery of death that when combined with a Captain can be brought down anywhere on the map.
Added to that is the fact that that Brit player may now participate fully in combats outside his gun's normal range, he spent a lot of time and effort getting those guns together and combined with a Captain he can now bring them to bear anywhere on the map to support his undersized force.
Because really if you've got 90 pop cap and you've used about 36 of it on three artillery emplacements, you army is going to be 60% the size of any one of your opponent's.
I dunno, I don't see the problem still.
Like red flares in another case, but only one case I see to it. Air recon (pe cannons should be shoot down first 8 planes) and then target victor, but it isn't specific of victor target but usa/brits. And at this moment maybe we will think about axis v1 without flares but with sniper as observator you can drop it at hq. (Yes I know it's late game, but works same) About restrictions to it I agree in someone case it would be have price, but it's player decision how to use it. If game is double brits it's hard to get close and have drop it under hq at this one moment, but as I said brits/usa have much options from sniper to air recon.
I dont go terror so often, but V1 never killed a building when I used it. Its only good vs retreated inf massesx, but that needs excellent timing due to the ridiciolus delay time.
Further it cost 150 mun, Victor is free. Make it cost 200-250mun(cause off the enorm potential and high brit income i dont think would be too much, but that can be discussed)and you could it leave as it is cause it would be jsut like any other off mapp arty. I just cand tell much about 25lber spam in team games, i dont play more than 2vs2 very often, maybe it would be still too powerfull if you have too much arty pieces.
Or leave it for free but the cpt has to see the target like wehr officer.
You build the cpt not for victor target, you need him anyway.The Captain isn't free.
#35
Why is it an end game ability? It is not Doctrine specific. It only requires a FST, for the Captain, whom you will build anyways and 1 or 2 450/75 arty pieces.
Thus, if I was going to use my 25 lb'r (s) for a Creeping Barrage anyways, now I get LOS via whatever method I choose, send in a FREE Victor Target, and then follow-up with my creeping as planned. BOOM!
And for shits and giggles, follow that up with a Stuart to do clean up and or Canister whatever is still alive and squirming around like fish out of water.
Its funny how one person makes a thread about this and everyone is like "OMG" unbalanced. If it was so unbalanced wouldnt you think it would have been brought up before.
Anyways, victor target should in NO WAY have a 200-250 munitions cost. I never float more than 100 muntions hardly ever. In close contested games, brits never float munitions. Against lesser opponents maybe.
The fact is, to get the full effect of the victor, you need multiple 25 pounders which greatly takes away from your main force. So there is a drawback, it isnt free as so many have said. So the more you spend on 25 pounders, the better victor is, and the worse your army is. Take your pick on what you want.
Also creeping barrage pretty much blows for its price. The only time i ever use it is against noobs in mop up duty.
Because you have to go through almost the entirety of your tech tree and then build 1350 mp and 225 fu worth of emplacements to make it effective and you also have to keep those emplacements alive while fighting actively against the enemy.Why is it an end game ability?
Hell, it's harder to use than a King Tiger, with that you just fight through the game la-dee-da and then when you earn the CP roll the fatty onto the screen for 500 mp over five minutes and a 12 pop cap pricetag.
I'm not considering someone who uses victor target to shoot one 25 pounder once extra every four minutes, you guys seem to be talking about someone bringing down large multi-gun barrages.
Daroach... Nobody lose a full squad to boobytraps. Only Newbies. you hear klick run meters wait, cap!Ive heard of an ability like that. Its called boobytraps. Booby traps can easily take out full squads.
Also, you do get green smoke to show you that the victor is coming, plus about the same time you would normally have on a OMA to get out of the smoke.
Yeah that's it! You answered yourself why your argument isn't true. To v1 you need observator, like in target victor, that's why I don't see any problem. As another said it isn't free completely.I dont go terror so often, but V1 never killed a building when I used it. Its only good vs retreated inf massesx, but that needs excellent timing due to the ridiciolus delay time.
Sometimes I build to support my ally, but when my enemy has a lot of at weaponYou build the cpt not for victor target, you need him anyway.
Creeping barrage (150 ammo) also drops flare (yellow or orange) and that's one less 25 pounders-target victor don't breaks creeping barrage, observation when one of them is activeThus, if I was going to use my 25 lb'r (s) for a Creeping Barrage anyways, now I get LOS via whatever method I choose, send in a FREE Victor Target, and then follow-up with my creeping as planned. BOOM!
Peter brits have this specific, without lt on early game they're too slow to escape
Lol, god forbid in a competitive game you are doing multiple other things and decide to send a squad off to cap a point. Then click, o wait i didnt hear that click cuz i was busy, boom, dead squad. Im sure no one one these forums ever lost a squad to booby traps. Im not to elitest to say i have.Daroach... Nobody lose a full squad to boobytraps. Only Newbies. you hear klick run meters wait, cap!
#41
Ok this is getting silly. One more time and then I will fold my hand."Creeping barrage (150 ammo) also drops flare (yellow or orange) and that's one less 25 pounders-target victor don't breaks creeping barrage, observation when one of them is active"
First, why do you need to go through an entire tech tree? The HQ truck is FREE. The FST (185/30) is a MUST have for both Sappers and the Capt. is required for Stuarts or the ACT(not required for a Victor btw). (205/65) And 1 25 lb'r. (450/75)
You don't need a Doctrine choice and 150 muni for a Brit is not a mind numbing # like it is for say a Wehr player.
So after a DEFAULT build order I have what I need to Victor and then drop a Creep, on his base buildings so smoke doesn't even figure in, all inside of 10-15 seconds. Hotkeys ftw.
P.S. Anyways, I fold. Enoughand I need a
A creeping barrage will do barely anything to buildings. It doesnt pound any one spot to do much damage to the buildings. Ive learned this from experience. Which is why i think it pointless. Its to slow to hit moving targets, and its not powerful enough to hurt buildings much.
Imagine a V1 Hitting your base and it heavily damages/destroys one of your HQ structures...
now, put that on a 3 minute timer.
now imagine the other player gets that v1 strike for Free.
it is an issue which is barely balanced on 1v1 which gets incrediably worse the more players you add. even if you don't think so just take it at face value.
it is a FREE Hit anywhere arty barrage which is becomes more powerful the more on map arty you build. and though it depends on the arty the player has built, its usage does not have any negative effect on anything you have built.
it is an advantage with no negatives.
HA!
It can't hit moving targets unless you know where they're going.
And a creeping barrage always pierces a tank's armor. If you do a creeping down a road and your enemy doesn't notice immediately, you can knock out moving vehicles, anything lighter than a StuH.
Infantry hardly stand a chance, and go in 5's and 6's when hit. Don't retreat into one.
The concern we are discussing is that victor can kill you base and you can do nothing about it. A V1 damages the buildings a bit but kills usuallky nothing but Inf. So i dont see why invalid my own argument.
About 200 mun is not too much in my view, Wehr needs much more mun has usually less income and expensive arty barrages of 150-200 mun which are less effective.
Dramatic much?
Its hardly as good as a V1, unless as i said earlier you have like 4+ 25 pounders, which also btw makes your mobile army shit.
edit:
Also, there is a cost. You MUST buy at least one 25 pounder to use it. Otherwise the ability is useless.
Saying that it has a cost because it Requires a 25 pounder is like saying the Panzerfaust and panzershreck has a research cost because it requires tier 2 before it is usable.
and because you used that statment, all input you have on this subject is null and void. as you have demonstarted that you are willing ignoring the very subject at hand to put up a false aurgument causing the discussion to stall in order to mislead every one.
The ability is free of independent cost on a unit required to progress in tech which effects a structure which a player will probably use. And because the ability does not effect the structure(s) it requires, the cost of said structures are not in any way included in the over all cost of the ability. This is because the ability does not inhibit nor detract from the over all effectiveness of unit through the usage of said ability.
@ Pyro.
can you use the ability without said structure? no.
Yes agreed, in order to say something is unbalanced or balanced you have to weigh both sides, and to say something like brits never float in muni in a competitive game is only half the argument, neither do axis teams float in muni in competitive situations. As it is, things are unbalanced in some respects regarding free arty, but hey the beta is coming out soon so that will be interesting to see how things are debated then.
ASAG
Yes. Yes i can.
call in an M7 Preist.
are you going to say that it now has a 650 mp cost?
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