[2.301] Ignoring suppression should incur higher casualties

[Penitent]

Blobs of Rangers, Airborne as well as PE and Brit infantry blobs (with group zeal or heroic charge) can basically run right past machine gun fire and MG fire is often completely ineffective. It's particularly bad with PE armed with shrecks and assault rifles, MGs become pretty much pointless.

Now doesn't this negate the entire point of MGs? I don't see any reason why a machine gun should become obsolete mid to late game.

Now I don't think the ability to ignore suppression should be removed because that's the entire point of these abilities, but surely they should incur higher losses? It's the price you pay for charging 15+ soldiers gung ho into MG fire. You shouldn't take one or two casualties.

So does anybody agree? The idea here is that using abilities that let infantry ignore suppression make them more vulnerable to MG fire, because if you want to do a WW1 charge on an MG nest then you should take WW1 casualties. Maybe not that bad actually, but more losses than they suffer now.

That way the anti-suppression abilities are still useful but so are MGs against blobs, heavy machine guns should be THE weapon against blobs.

[Lunar100]

This has actually been discussed quite a bit before. Yes these abilities are detrimental to the strategic element of CoH and yes I agree that they should have a damage modifier against any unit using said abilities. Whether or not Relic will decide to change anything though no one knows.

[OutpostCommand]

I think the answer is easy:
125% accuracy at long range, 150% accuracy at medium range, 200% accuracy at short range (relative to current accuracy).

This wont render the abilities useless, but it will mean that one Ranger/AB squad doesnt nullify every MG on the map.
You would need a squad to distract the MG before closing in with the AB/Rangers.

[ABraun]

I think the problem is not in the suppression ability, but in the fact that the units capable of performing it are supposed to be elite infantry. The weren't made to exist in large blobs, yet they've become a common sight.

The exception to the rule is heroic charge.

[iaguz]

I don't really agree to this idea.

Why? Well, if you get shot up more what is the point of Fire up? Fire Up is designed to break suppression, so nerfing Fire Up unit's ability to fire up and pick off MG's and stuff is making the ability mostly useless, except for maybe running down fleeing vehicles.

If you want to nerf Fire Up nerf the units that use it, not the abilty.

[Penitent]

Well you could say PE are the exception there too as their basic infantry are practically immune to MG fire late game until their ability runs out of steam. And it's not just a nerf to fire up Im proposing here.

Also it doesn't make fire up useless, because once you've run past the MG you can chuck a satchel charge or grenade at the MG. AS for the PE/Brit blobs, they should take losses that make having an MG worthwhile.

[Tod]

Rangers always had FU, it just became a problem when they got so tough that they could survive charging a MG head-on. Without Elite Armor, FU would be no problem.

[PeterPeterson1]

For me FU should be a way to leave suppression and run away a bit without the must of a full retreat to HQ. FU should never work like a "let's ignore this MG" Button. Sprint didn't break suppression. Supressed PE squads have to retreat. Rangers and airborne could walk some yards back to reinforce and could then flank the MG, while the PE squads need time to reach the battlefield again.

[Panzer Jager]

Panzer Elite group zeal doesn't ignore suppression.
Veteran Sergeant reduces it by 25%, and PE sprint (which requires all PG upgrades except Inc. Nade) reduces it further.
PGs will always get suppressed.

Wehrmacht Nade Assault and For the Fatherland are the only Axis abilities that break suppression, and they cost munitions.

[Ano2]

Why? Well, if you get shot up more what is the point of Fire up? Fire Up is designed to break suppression, so nerfing Fire Up unit's ability to fire up and pick off MG's and stuff is making the ability mostly useless, except for maybe running down fleeing vehicles.

I would say its main application is to get out of the mgs arc of fire, not usually by running towards it, and also to chase down enemy vehicles (Hence why no one ever uses pumas versus US). If you wanna nade that mg then fine, but expect to take higher casulties, which I think is a fair tradeoff.

[FLXleGaulois]

I agree with the OP but is it possible to increase the received damages/precision only from MG or does the modification necessarily affect all the small arms ?

[Penitent]

Panzer Elite group zeal doesn't ignore suppression.
Veteran Sergeant reduces it by 25%, and PE sprint (which requires all PG upgrades except Inc. Nade) reduces it further.
PGs will always get suppressed.

Well It must reduce it to the point where they might as well ignore suppression. I've seen large PE blobs run right past MGs.

[zzSleeper]

So we should make assault and ftfl take more damage too? Because they ignore suppression as well.

Before you say it, they have a munitions cost but give other benefits like 30% damage reduction and 50 million grenades thrown, and affect all infantry, not just your doctrine call in.

[PeterPeterson1]

Well It must reduce it to the point where they might as well ignore suppression. I've seen large PE blobs run right past MGs.

At the point PE squads are able to sprint the HMG has a lot to do to supress them. BUT if you suppressed them, because they didn't know you had an hmg there starting sprint gives you no advantage. The only thing they get is the yellow aura and a decreased LOS.

Fireup brings you through HMG fire AND let ignore that your guys were allready pinned.

And Fireup comes with 3 CP. There is no fuel or MP required and usable in early and earlymidgame. While sprint is late midgame to lategame.

[zzSleeper]

Fired up only affects elite infantry call ins, sprint affects everyone.

[Panzer Jager]

Don't even try saying sprint is good compared to Fire-up.

[nude-fox]

50 million grenades thrown, and affect all infantry, not just your doctrine call in.

where can i get this ability again 50 millino grenades i should finally be able to take something out

[Tseng_Fox]

Sprint is the most overpriced, most worthless, crappest ability in the entire game. Seriously. Why does it cost so much? Ive never had it in 1vs1. You need so many abilities to get it (all of which cost fuel and most are junk)

[Penitent]

Well in team games I've seen it put to good effect. It's basically a huge mob of panzer grens with shrecks, running right past your defences or army and blowing all your stuff up on a drive-by style kamikaze attack. PE players normally do it after they've lost a few vehicles to confuse the allies who are building vehicle counters.

It's something that needs to be dealt with in my view because the usual infantry counters dont seem to work. I wouldn't say it's worthless, crappy or overpriced considering the herculean abilities it bestows on panzer grens in larger games.

[Panzer Jager]

I'd say the allied counterparts are better.

[PeterPeterson1]

i only used sprint 2 times and that in 4v4. Hmm lets sumarize how ften i used FU! Everytime. Funny, isn't it?

Fired up only affects elite infantry call ins, sprint affects everyone.

Hmm, this is funny too. Most of the games the only infantry i have to face are those 2 Elite units. Okay, early there are riflemen too. BUT before i can sprint there are several ranger or airbornesquads.

Don't even try saying sprint is good compared to Fire-up.

Yes. absolutely. And let me say another thing. Don't even try to compare both abilitys!

Fireup should help your elite units to break suppression and get out of direct fire to reinforce at the frontline, without the need of a full retreat, and not to negate an HMG. And it should help to flank tanks. Not more.

kamikaze attacks should pay a price.

FU should change elite to infantry class, so the hmg support, perhaps a volks or another squad could kill them.

So you have to think about it. get the MG but lose all the good zooks, RRs or the whole squad to HMG support.

[zzSleeper]

Hmm, this is funny too. Most of the games the only infantry i have to face are those 2 Elite units. Okay, early there are riflemen too. BUT before i can sprint there are several ranger or airbornesquads.

If your opponent is building nothing but rangers or airborne, you can easilly cut him to pieces.

Vet 2 grenadiers backed up with multiple flame pios will roast rangers because they can even blink, airborne is even easier to deal with.

Eventually tech up to an ostwind and laugh at rangers, for airborne, any dedicated anti-infantry infantry units can easilly kill them.

As PE, panzer IV is good vs rangers(but not against airborne, cause you will get satcheled). Best thing to use mid game(3cp is mid game) is mp44 PG horde, with a few armored cars thrown in. Bazookas are crap vs ACs due to their terrible accuracy at long range.

[PeterPeterson1]

Most of the games the only infantry i have to face are those 2 Elite units.

Nothing more to say!

Edit: Oh i have more to say. The post is not about killing Rangers. That isn't my problem. My problem is that any kind of tactical use of hmg is negated.

[Penitent]

PanzerJager
Don't even try saying sprint is good compared to Fire-up.

PanzerJager
I'd say the allied counterparts are better.

This is irrelevant really. The thread is not about whether fire up or sprint are better or how they compare to each other. It's about large blobs of infantry completely ignoring infantry counters and the solution I suggested applies to both sides.

[German Steel!]

I completely agree. I only play Wehr, and MG42s are more of a mobile suppression generator than an infantry counter. You can have it empty a whole clip of ammo into a squad of Riflemen lying in the open, and the range can be medium to short. Will it kill them? no. Why? I don't have a damn clue.

Seriously, you can literally see the bullets pass through the soldiers without doing crap. I once had an MG42 get killed in return for killing a single Tommy on St. Hilaire. No other factors involved - MG42 dies to a single squad of Tommies in open ground, when the MG was in green cover.

There needs to be a damage modifier. They're obsolete as soon as the first armour of any kind hits the field, because they 1) can't do crap against armour, which they shouldn't, but also 2) at this point of the game they don't do crap against infantry either.

[Penitent]

Well that's the point behind machine guns in this game. They are meant to stop blobs of infantry in their tracks and force them to run away and use combined arms. They aren't necessarily meant to kill a lot of infantry as a game mechanic, you use infantry squads for that.

The problem here is that troops which ignore suppression (or practically ignore it) pretty much make the MG obsolete if used in large numbers.

[drChengele]

This is an idea worth considering, at any rate.

Let us consider for a moment: what is suppression in this game, actually? What does it represent? It represents infantry's natural response to a hail of bullets coming their way. So they start crawling so as to avoid taking a bullet. This implies that if they remained standing they'd take a hell of a lot more damage. If this wasn't the case, then what is the point of them crawling on their bellies?

If the fired up infantry doesn't take any more damage than the suppressed infantry, then the logical question is posed: why would infantry hit the deck when an MG starts firing? They aren't getting any less damage, in fact, the crawling hurts them because it lenghtens their stay in the cone of MG's fire.

I realize such arguments have little to do with balance, but I think balance should be constructed upon the foundation of common sense. Within the framework of the game, abilities such as fire-up, while not being overpowered just because of the fact they allow you to take MGs head on, they do however detract from the strategic element of the game.

People are acting as if there is no other way to take out an MG but a headlong rush straight at it using infantry. This is stupid and is against everything CoH used to stand for before Opposing Fronts took a long, fetid, putrid dump all over the concept. In fact, there are hundreds of ways to take out MGs. Flanking is one of them. Snipers, mortars, light vehicles and light tanks, to name a few more. Late game is nothing but a deathtrap for MGs, what with artillery and tanks roaming around in all directions - and let us never forget that tank as a concept was created in late WWI for virtually no other purpose at the time but to enable advance accross a battlefield dominated by - wait for it - machine guns.

I pondered a lot on how to fix the issue myself, because one way or the other, unsuppressed infantry will definitely receive more damage from MGs in my mod. There are several solutions to this, the first being fiddling with modifiers so that MGs have double the damage output, but gets a 0.5 modifier vs suppressed infantry. This has some associated problems (initial bursts would regularly kill 1-2 people before they hit the deck, etc.) which could all be solved by careful tweaking of modifiers regarding damage, suppression, and accuracy of stationary MGs versus infantry armor types.

A simple solution would be giving Fire-Up a +100% received accuracy modifier, which makes sense because these guys are running gung-ho ignoring all cover. This would work just fine, but would do little to fix other similar abilities, such as Heroic Charge, FTFL and the like.

[bottenbreker]

well, i was thinking. what if fire up and a grenade had the same timer? so you couldtn't simply run towards an MG and nade it. that might work to fix the MG in buildings vs fire-up.

[PeterPeterson1]

I really like to read your posts. I could not agree with all of them but mostly i like the way you thought about what you wanna tell us.

But I think even with 100% Accuracy the HMG42 does poor damage to rangers and Airborne. (Since OF the given damage to inf squads is stupid. You can have a 6 men squad with 20 % health but no casulties.)

With Vet 1 it is makeable because the accuracy is increased by another 25%. but lets give it a try. I hope they can do something similar in the beta.

Man, i remember the unpatched vCoH and a long time i was laughing about rangers!

Today they give me a headache.

well, i was thinking. what if fire up and a grenade had the same timer? so you couldtn't simply run towards an MG and nade it. that might work to fix the MG in buildings vs fire-up.

Well but this didn't fix the MG in green cover!

[Penitent]

Actually I think using Fire Up to throw a grenade is perfectly valid and not the issue (but you should lose a few men in the process).

It's when multiple squads just run right past the MG like it wasn't there that's the problem (and this isn't just a problem with Fire Up!). It's the blobbing.

[zzSleeper]

I completely agree. I only play Wehr, and MG42s are more of a mobile suppression generator than an infantry counter. You can have it empty a whole clip of ammo into a squad of Riflemen lying in the open, and the range can be medium to short. Will it kill them? no. Why? I don't have a damn clue.

Seriously, you can literally see the bullets pass through the soldiers without doing crap. I once had an MG42 get killed in return for killing a single Tommy on St. Hilaire. No other factors involved - MG42 dies to a single squad of Tommies in open ground, when the MG was in green cover.

There needs to be a damage modifier. They're obsolete as soon as the first armour of any kind hits the field, because they 1) can't do crap against armour, which they shouldn't, but also 2) at this point of the game they don't do crap against infantry either.

You must be using a different MG42 than I am, cause mine kills riflemen faster than my volksquad.

Also, MG42s are never obsolete, I find myself building one late game in some games when my opponent has a lot of infantry.

Fired up charge and nade against a supported MG42 position is terrible. The MG will kill a couple of guys on the way in, then my supporting mp40 volks and flamer will probably kill the rest of the ranger squad before they can even throw the nade, and should they survive to throw it(lets say multiple squads), they will be down to very little hp and have to run as soon as they finish throwing it.

Then I just recrew the MG with my volksquad and reinforce for like 70 manpower.

[rainkloud]

If reality is Earth then most of you guys are Pluto. Sigh...where to start with this mess....

The problem you seem to have is with a lone mg not being able to suppress a large group of infantry. Well here's how the formula works. If you have a large group you need more mg's to suppress. You can't expect one single machine gun to stop 10 -20 people.

As far as fired up units not taking more damage when charging you are absolutely wrong. Suppression grants defensive bonuses to received damage and accuracy. When units are fired up they don't get those bonuses which means they bear the full brunt of the mg.

The guy above me got it spot on. Charging an MG is usually suicide. IF your guys even make it they are usually down to 2 banged up soldiers and you'd better hope that position was worth it to justify the reinforcement cost. The only time it makes sense is if you're turning a corner and have only a short distance to run.

There are a small handfull of issues left. This isn't one of them. This is a "you need to improve problem."

[someboy]

what about earily game then? i mean american elite units can pertty much just ignore supression. and PE needs to wait until late game and still to do multiple upgrades inorder to do that.

[drChengele]

Well here's how the formula works. If you have a large group you need more mg's to suppress. You can't expect one single machine gun to stop 10 -20 people.

Wait. I am going to go out and buy a soda, just so I can come back and drink it while I reread your post, so I can snort it out of my nose in surprise and shock.

A single MG should be able to suppress a billion people as long as they are packed in a neat blob.

Also, I don't have mod tools with me, but I am pretty sure that MG42 has seriously reduced accuracy/damage versus pinned units only, if there is penalty versus suppressed units it is a slight one. No matter how hard you try to present the modifiers, in-game experience teaches us that a fired-up squad can approach an MG into grenade-throwing range in the open without getting torn to shreds and without being suppressed. The latter I am inclined to swallow - what with suppression breaking being the very purpose of Fire-Up - but the rest is BS.

[sporty]

IIRC the incremental accuracy modifier and nearby suppression make HMGs perform better against larger groups of units.
And unless it gets to spray a group of rifles at close range, an HMG42 never ends up with more kills than a Volks squad early game.

[zzSleeper]

IIRC the incremental accuracy modifier and nearby suppression make HMGs perform better against larger groups of units.
And unless it gets to spray a group of rifles at close range, an HMG42 never ends up with more kills than a Volks squad early game.

MG42 dps(45/22/11) against not moving(because they're suppressed) infantry(riflesquad, 6 man): 7.524 19.1 49.55

Volks dps(35/17/8) against infantry: 6.6 12.43 20.72.



More interestingly is this:


MG42 dps(45/22/11) against infantry elite, moving(fire up): 5.64 14.3 37.16. These numbers are the same vs paratroopers.

Volks dps(35/17/8) against infantry elite: 3.71 6.99 11.67. These numbers are the same vs paratroopers.


The myth of the MG42 doing no damage is just that, a myth. As you can see the MG42 greatly outdamages volks in every aspect at every range, especially considerng it has longer range than volks. Nade throwing range is within the "short" range for the MG42, where it does crazy amounts of damage.

Also note that the MG is even better against rangers/airborne than volks. Both weapons also have the same light/heavy cover modifiers. only against garrisoned/entrenched do rifles have an advantage over MGs(but this is true of all MGs, including smgs).

I invite anyone to lab it with me, frontal charge with rangers against a MG 42 backed by one mp40 volksquad. I guarantee you the rangers will take heavy damage on the way in and lose to the volks, even if they do manage to nade the MG, I can just recrew for far less cost than the heavy reinforcement cost on rangers/airborne.


The only reason volks might have more kills early game is because the MG suppresses the rifles at long range and volks walk up to close range and shoot them.

[sporty]

An... "interesting" correlation to my quoted posting... dps and kill shots? Elite armour and early game? Suppressed infantry can still move (resulting in moving modifers), just like engine damage/destroyed vehicles can still drive (and gain the responding modifiers).

Volks (can) end up with more kills than HMG42s because they
-usually hit the field earlier
-are more mobile
-engage at short ranges more often
-get less penalties against suppressed/pinned targets
-some other things, probably

Obviously I didn't comment on the topic raised by the OP, so why did it prompt a response containing points completely irrelevant to the statements I made? Not to mention the "slightly" misleading figures you presented

[whatsleft]

mg42s definitely have to outdamage volks, but thats NOT the point, it doesnt have to do uber damage to rangers.

FUed squads do not run headon into the mg barrel, they run past it and start spanking mg's crews ass with a whip from behind.

the problem now is that during FU, they run out of the mg's range(thats fine really its wat FU is supposed to be). support troops do too little to them, then rangers get into their optimum range and starts S&M play with axis armies.

giving a slightly higher incoming acc. against rangers would solve that.

[Tseng_Fox]

I find that when Wehrmacht looses 1 or 2 MG42's (depending on how many are fielded) then their early game tends to go pear-shaped.

Its odd how essential these are for Wehrmacht to survive early game against riflemen, but even more essential against Brit infrantry sections. If you do not build one, you will lose.

Considering this, I feel that Fire-Up! is okay, although I wished it punished the players who rush them straight into the MG for grenade throwing range. Fire-Up! should still counter it, but by flanking the MG. Its also difficult for the support to kill the Rangers when fired-up. I tend to need at least twice their manpower cost worth of units to stop them.

[zzSleeper]

Except a head long rush into a MG till you get behind it means your rangers WILL die horribly if there are any infantry support for that MG.

You take massive amounts of damage on the way in. Again, I invite anyone here to lab it with me. Rangers with smg vs mp40 volks+MG42, assuming a head long charge.

If its not a frontal charge, then there is nothing wrong, Fired up is doing what it supposed to do.

An... "interesting" correlation to my quoted posting... dps and kill shots? Elite armour and early game? Suppressed infantry can still move (resulting in moving modifers), just like engine damage/destroyed vehicles can still drive (and gain the responding modifiers).

So what? At worst the MG42 only slightly outdamages volks instead of greatly outdamaging it, and whats suppressed infantry at long range going to do to your units? Nothing.

Elite armor from rangers, not exactly early game, but still pretty early. Paratroopers are pretty early game, and they have the same damage modifiers while moving as rangers.

-get less penalties against suppressed/pinned targets

Volks actually have worse modifiers against suppressed targets than the MG42. The MG does full damage to suppressed targets, and while the K98 does as well, the mp40 does 25% less damage.

So what? Unless the rifles are in negative cover or something it takes a LONG time to pin, more than enough time for a MG to kill them assuming any kind of infantry support.

[natrapsmai]

... Don't pinned units already get penalties for staying pinned?

[zzSleeper]

Yes, very large bonuses as well.

After ten seconds the MG gets like a 300% accuracy boost against pinned targets though, but if you pinned a squad you really need rifles or smg troops to kill them, MGs are terrible against pinned troops generally.

[Compel]

I think we should go back to basics a bit.

We've got 'fire up' and we've got heroic charge. On a conceptual level, why?

Because it's cool. The elite infantry charging into the machine guns heedless of casualties, the officer ordering his men onto victory should give the players doing it a big damn heroes moment. - That's why they're Elite, cause they are so frigging cool that they can run up to a machine gun and not die a horrible horrible death. It's even somewhat true, too. In Band of Brothers (based on the real 101st Airborne actions and probable originator of the 'We're Airborne, We're MEANT to be surrounded' line) in an attack on the town in 'The Breaking Point,' lieutenant Spiers gets up and runs through The Whole Enemy Army! to check up on how the flanking force is doing, then runs all the way BACK again, without being shot.

In summary, I think the issues are, 'when the elite is so common it is no longer the elite' than any specific problems of fire up / charge

[zellyman]

I think we should go back to basics a bit.

We've got 'fire up' and we've got heroic charge. On a conceptual level, why?

Because it's cool.

I guess my Wehr units don't deserve to be cool then? But regardless, it's a cornerstone problem of the game since vanilla, it's yet another ability that gives the allied player an advantage that requires no forethought, skill, planning, or field superiority. Think back to 1.4, between the crocs, uber 57mm sniper rifles, jeeps crushing tank traps, Strafing run, AWM, I want something cool and just absolutely broken for the Wehr at least one patch.. just one patch! lol.

[zzSleeper]

I guess my Wehr units don't deserve to be cool then?

Wehr units have ftfl and assault, both break suppression.

[Compel]

Wehr have plenty, "because it's cool" units and abilities.

Like the aforementioned Assault Grenades. They've got to have come from the thought of, "you know what would be cool, if we not only had people charge at the enemy, but they all threw a whole bunch of grenades at them too!"

Of course, much of wehr does tend to have normal units that implicitly follow the 'rule of cool' while being pretty much German staples.

I am, of course, referring to, big effing tanks and judicious allocation of standard units that result in stuff blowing up ie half tracks (stuka and flammen) as well as nebelwerfers.

The point is, from the conceptual standpoint, in general for games to be popular, the designers need to hand out 'coolness,' and doing this they commonly rely on popular imagery aka tropes.

[slim]

The problem you seem to have is with a lone mg not being able to suppress a large group of infantry. Well here's how the formula works. If you have a large group you need more mg's to suppress. You can't expect one single machine gun to stop 10 -20 people.

then tell me why i have been able to suppress a blob of 7 Riflemen squads or 42 men in one burst from one mg42 it can be done just like i have done it with the 7 squads of grens vet one that’s 28 men with a 30cal.

now suppressing men is nothing what the OP is asking is should men like rangers and airborne using fire up take more damage like grens do when using IA. and to that i say on one side it would be good but on the other they must make sure that the damage is not so great that they are cut down in seconds.

[zzSleeper]

then tell me why i have been able to suppress a blob of 7 Riflemen squads or 42 men in one burst from one mg42 it can be done just like i have done it with the 7 squads of grens vet one that’s 28 men with a 30cal

7 squads of grens would rape a 30 cal, head on.

Hell, two squads of grens can do it.

[slim]

7 squads of grens would rape a 30 cal, head on.

ill look to night for replay and post a vid of it but i can tell u now 7 or so squads charging in the open got suppressed as far as i can remember

[zzSleeper]

You forget suppressed grenadiers can still lob their nade really freaking far, and they can still shoot back.