Wehrmacht Veterancy - the silent cancer of CoH

[Murton]

There are other interesting possibilities, for example, what if all kills made by all Wehr troops were transferred to - get this - KKC. Then, you can purchase global vet using these XPs, not using fuel and manpower.

This is it. Wehrmacht get to keep their global veterancy but have to earn it in combat. As already explained by the Doctor the Wehrmacht faction already has a very high teching cost so removing the need to spend fuel on veterancy will make them a lot more competitive, but not necessarily overpowered. How easy would this be to create as a mod as proof of concept? Then it would be possible to test the idea not only to dial in a reasonable veterancy gain rate, but also to determine if removing the need to spend fuel on vet will result making the Wehrmacht tech too quickly or have enough fuel to spam their vehicles.

[rifleman]

totally disagree with the idea of this thread, such suggestions/complaints usually come from people that never play Wehr

CoH has reached a very very good point in balance terms and it wont go much further, making changes like this would send CoH back to the stone age balance-wise plus Wehr veterancy system adds to the game diversity, mirror armies/abilities are lame

PS : shouldn't this be in the balance section?

[drChengele]

totally disagree with the idea of this thread, such suggestions/complaints usually come from people that never play Wehr

Eh. Heheh. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Sir, you are pure gold .

[Compel]

There are other interesting possibilities, for example, what if all kills made by all Wehr troops were transferred to - get this - KKC. Then, you can purchase global vet using these XPs, not using fuel and manpower

Speaking entirely from a newbies point of view, this seems like great fun.

[Wargrim]

Interesting thoughts, though as many other allready said, i can not see how it would be possiblke to change it without redesigning Wehrmacht gameplay on a scale seen by no ballance patch before.

[German Steel!]

I have an idea - what about buying Veterancy for individual things? you simply click on for example Infantry Veterancy and then click on your Grenadiers for Vet 1 and do it twice/thrice for Vet 2/3. The cost for vetting up would be like 50, 75 or 100 (something like that) per level. However, you can only gain up to the veterancy level as the tech tier you're at.

But there's a twist. This will enable them to get veterancy from fighting, but faster than the Americans or PE, so you're basically paying for them to be able to get Veterancy through fighting.

So to summarise: veterancy effects would be better than the Americans but you have to pay on individual squads for it so that they can go out and earn it, but earn it faster than the Americans, however you can only gain as much Veterancy as the tech tier you're on.


Then you could incorporate unique vet benefits that you can choose from like Murton said. I'd think ''packages'' of Vet bonuses, like the PE have but different from eachother would be a good thing. You can pick offensive, defensive or make your own within certain restrictions. For your ''own'' veterancy design, you'd be able to choose from all the options by clicking on something in the KampfKraft Center which takes you to something similar to the Doctrine screen, as to allow you to pick from everything (ie. the number of veterancy effects wouldn't get space in the KKC, so when you click on ''make-your-own'', it takes you to a doctrine-size window).

[Tod]

Totally agree with the OP, I've already thought several times about systems where Wehr can keep buyable upgrades from the KKC and get some kind of gainable vet.

The upgrades from the KKC could do so many things - a little stat increase and faster vet gaining, additional boni when the vet is gained in battle, making it possible to reach a certain vet level, etc...

[bottenbreker]

i like the idea of buying vet for each unit seperatly, but if the selected unit has killed many enemies, the cost to vet the squad will be lower. for example:

1 squad grens: 0 kills, 100mp + 10 fuel
1 squad grens: 5 kills, 50 mp + 5 fuel

[chandlerr_360]

This post is made of 100% win. Now the challenge is getting Relic to see it. Quick, make posters!

[Murton]

This post is made of 100% win. Now the challenge is getting Relic to see it. Quick, make posters!

It's a well known fact that threads which are locked are the most viewed threads on the internet, therefore we should aim to kill all discussion value from the concept and resort to petty name calling as soon as possible


On a serious note, the best we can hope for is some sort of Veterancy mod like the OP started work on but never finished. Anything official would be somewhere near expansion or even sequel on the "amount of work required" scale. It would definitely cost way too much for Relic to implement it as a patch.

[Wolfwood]

This has always been an issue and its great that its been recognized for the monster it is. In a perfect world Relic would see this and begin to work on it, but thats probably never going to happen, as this would require a massive amount of testing to eliminate imbalances and make the system fit naturally into the game.

The best we can hope for is a mod like the one drChengele suggested. The think tank for ideas should start immediately, and I support the xp routed to the KKC idea. The different abilities gained through vet sounds interesting too, especially if you can pick what abilities you get. But they would have to be packaged with some sort of stat bonus at the same time to make them competitive.

[wehrwolfzug]

There are some great ideas comming out of this thread. Another idea that could work is this.

Have your units only gain xp only after building the kkc. Once the kkc is built your army will gain vet at a default level. You could purchase upgrades that would help certain types of units such as troops, support, tanks and vehicles gain xp quicker. This would allow you decided where you would like to focus your training for your army.

This model could allow for you to field a much different army to fight as every game. Maybe one game you would like to have elite infantry much quicker than last game where you chose to have elite armor first. Or both if you have enough resources for the upgrades.

[kasrkinsquad]

It's not so much as Relic seeing this thread as much as it is Relic needing to agree with it.

This is basically admitting you were wrong so I highly doubt they would do it.

[Melonplant]

It's a well known fact that threads which are locked are the most viewed threads on the internet, therefore we should aim to kill all discussion value from the concept and resort to petty name calling as soon as possible

First person to post bunny pictures gets a star in my book.

It's easy to come up with unique veterancy. I have way to make wehr veterancy perfect!

Hear it now ye mortals!

So wehr veterancy is a buy once perma upgrade. Buy it too early, you're going to take a hurting. But if the game lasts x amount of seconds and you have y amount of squads on the field, its imbalanced. You're paying 100 mp and 30 fuel to have regeneration rates for the entire game. Vet gives you awesome grenadiers for the entire game, and they are easily replaceable.

So, here it goes. You can variate the idea to make it require killing, give it time restrictions, whatever. It's just a plaster idea and I could not possibly take all considerations in to effect. You'd still have to completely redesign the wehr faction, but hopefully this will make it a little easier.

Make wehrmacht veterancy free, or at least, mostly free. Give the KKC back it's fuel cost. Make all researched vet take a little bit more time, but essentially free.

However, with each vet it will increase your base upkeep. Maybe not by just a percentage, but by a set amount and a percentage.

This means that if you research vet way to hella early, your manpower will take quite a hit and you won't be able to field units as fast. Sure, you'll have 2 vet 3 volks squads, but your manpower will be down to 250 or something.

Next, make teching remove the set manpower upkeeps and only keep the percentages. Now vet 3 grenadiers will have higher upkeep, so you won't be able to make thousands of them. You'll still pay for your vet, only in an overtime manner.

This removes the implicit weakness of early vet, since it's free. You still can't get it TOO early. Obviously vet 1 will have only small upkeep penalties, and t2 will completely remove the flat, set upkeep penalty.

And it removes the imbalance in long games and in team games. Fine, do a T2 strat with thousands of vet 3 grenadiers. You still need to tech if you plan on outmassing any decent player and the percentage upkeep will prevent it from being imba in long games + team games.

It fits the faction, a starving dying defensive faction that is deploying it's best troops at the cost of the fatherland to stop the evil americans. It should cost a lot to upkeep those brave squads.

I actually believe this is what relic wanted at first, but they just couldn't find a balanced way to implement it. And in this case, obviously, the veterancy bonuses would have to be changed, as would all of wehrmachts unit costs and teching structure.

[Ano2]

Dr, I completely agree with you on this issue, and I have made balance threads on wehr vets before, but alas I had run into the same kind of nonsense spewed by some of the people in this thread.

Changing the veterency model would not be that hard, and there is also a very, very easy way to balance it which i'm suprised no one has bought up. The tier costs. These are an absolute Godsend when altering wehr, as unlike all the other factions, these costs can be used to dictate the teching speed of wehr. For example if we canged the wehr vet system and realised that wehr were suddenly not paying enough since the vet costs are gone, then we could whack additional cost onto the teching tiers.

Anyhow hopefully Relic will swallow their pride and realise the wehr vet system was a mistake, and replace it with a vet by killing system.

[MirrorImage]

I don't know if this has been suggested in the thread. What if Wehr had two veterncy systems, the current renamed Battle Training or something and toned down to be totally defense vet and they also had the capacity to earn stronger offensive veterancy in battle? It would keep the wehr veterancy icon just overlap the PE bullets over it below it.

Oh god, or instead of squads earning vet in the field the KKC collects it all up and at your base when your squads retreat it vets up squads in its radius that have the XP. LOL I doubt this.

[drChengele]

Well, as long as we are tossing ideas out there, there was one I toyed with for a while, but decided to drop it. It is basically a combined model. Wehr vet bonuses are made stronger. KKC still exists. Only two levels of veterancy can be researched, however, and at a very high cost.
So if you research no vet, your experienced troops (the ones that did some killing) will be at vet1, and freshly spawned troops will be vet0. This way elite, vet3 troops will be very rare because you would need to research expensive level 2 veterancy at KKC and kill a lot of evil Allies.

[Ano2]

So the KKC allows the unlocks for veterency level 2+3 but they can still be earned? Nice idea. Heres mine:

The KKC is a weapon unlock centre. Shrecks, mp40s and lmgs would be unlocked from here via fuel and manpower before they can be individually purchased. For tanks the top mg and armour skirts could be unlocked in the same manner. This is similar to the PE model of weapon unlocks, yet having it all in one building would provide a significance difference and the building would still have a use. Thus if you want to rely on a gren force then you could go for the weapon unlocks, which would slow teching. Or you could skip it, rely on paks for at support and rush for tanks and go for mg and armour skirts.

There are so many options we could use, but one thing is certain: Wehr getting vet from killing would solve a hell of a lot of problems.

[TNT]

do not change wehr vet.

if you do, make sherman tanks the american builder unit and give brits a free nebelwerfer every time they capture territory.

[ViiKumi]

there are no problems with the veterancy. Good as it is.

It adds a certain kind of variety to the game.

[Border Patrol]

ano2 had an amazing idea, rebuff schrecks but make em cost a buttload to unlock might just make panzerfausts your mainstay AT weapon of choice

[drChengele]

TNT: You make no sense.
ViiKumi: yes, but what about THE ENTIRETY OF MY POST?

[German Steel!]

ViiKumi: yes, but what about THE ENTIRETY OF MY POST?

2 cents says he's one of those guys that doesn't read anything (including the OP) when he posts.

[La Head]

is it possible that we merge the current system (with a bit of modding) with one that resembles the PE one?

for example: let's say u purchased vet 2. Instead of applying magically to all your troops already stationed in the field, this vet 2 applies to all the troops you would be purchasing from now on. THis kind of vet i think can kinda reflect that as a whole, german units were better qualitatively when compared with their enemy, but they qualitative superiority can only be brought to bear when they are given the chance to bring in more experienced troops. As for the PE aspect. simply give that system to all the troops as well. troops with higher vet levels would be given a higher bonus. for let's say, offensive vet and the result would be something like "OMG, we are facing some German Crack Assault troops!" This should change from the current "oh here comes the same squad of germans who killed out entire squad last time and hitler still refused to decorate them."

[MirrorImage]

How about make the veterncy system similar to PE and Americans and just make it KKC reduce the XP per level to gain veterncy. Say maybe it takes 20 vet to reach vet one it would lower it to 10.

[Tseng_Fox]

The KKC is a weapon unlock centre. Shrecks, mp40s and lmgs would be unlocked from here via fuel and manpower before they can be individually purchased. For tanks the top mg and armour skirts could be unlocked in the same manner. This is similar to the PE model of weapon unlocks, yet having it all in one building would provide a significance difference and the building would still have a use. Thus if you want to rely on a gren force then you could go for the weapon unlocks, which would slow teching. Or you could skip it, rely on paks for at support and rush for tanks and go for mg and armour skirts.

What? manpower and fuel just to be able to begin to research unit upgrades? What would they do against Brits early game if they need to get those upgrades to survive against tommies?

[Ghostly_Gecko]

Wehr vet is quite broken. Reduced penetration on a Motorcycle; yeah, I'm sure Klaus is really happy that a Stuart's shell might bounce off of him, but how about something USEFUL?

The best idea (IMO, of course) is to have all of the exp points from combat get transferred to the KKC and then purchase global vet using the exp.

But any sort of major change like this would take an eternity to balance (year-long balance beta =/= good), and would irrevocably change the meta-game. Right now, a Wehr player wants to avoid unnecessary early-game fights so that the Allies don't get veterancy from them. However, with a change like the aforementioned exp-bought vet, a Wehr player would benefit from fighting just as much.

This would lead to a drastic change in Wehr strategy (not necessarily for the worse), and would turn CoH into a different game. The time needed to balance out strategies like pio-spam with an Early KKC and double medic bunkers to churn out vet Grens within 10 minutes would be insane. And who wants to see a return to Piospam-T3 + vet Storms; you could transfer all of your Pio combat experience into Stormtrooper Vet and have cloaked, vetted StG44/Shreck infantry running around in no time, getting exp-vet for your StUHs and Tigers.


It needs to happen, but it's going to be a long, painful road for Klaus and his motorcycle...

[ViiKumi]

2 cents says he's one of those guys that doesn't read anything (including the OP) when he posts.

I did read the whole post. I just didn't find any reason to comment on each section of that post, because most of it just blabbers about nothing, it doesn't raise the real problems. Thanks for your concern though.

[Ordovician]

OK, I see some of hte points you guys are making. I agree that Wehr veterency is a little odd, but changing it to american or PE-style would be way too drastic a change.

My idea:
You research vet 1 at the Kampfkraft Center, and build a gren squad. When built, the gren squad will randomly come out with one of several roughly equivalent "vet 1 bonuses," such as reduced penetration, more hp, better accuracy, etc.

If you research vet 2, then another bonus, out of several possible (but better than the vet1 class of upgrades) for that given level of veterency, is applied to the gren squad.

Maybe there could also be a combat experience factor... Like for instance if your gren squad has killed lot of infantry, but no tanks, it'll recieve anti-small arms bonuses. If your PzIV has killed a greyhound, it's more likely to get increased accuracy or penetration vs. armor/vehicles.

In the end, buying vet3 for your infantry would still apply three separate tiers of veterency globally across all infantry units, but each separate vet bonus for any given unit maybe different given that units role in the fighting.

I hope that makes sense.

[drChengele]

I just didn't find any reason to comment on each section of that post, because most of it just blabbers about nothing

Either you didn't read it or you didn't understand it, because the post provides a detailed list of all the reasons why global "veterancy" Wehr gets is illogical and has been detrimental to many game aspects over the years and made it difficult to balance.

Well, you can always dismiss other peoples' arguments out of hand, but then the question raises itself: why post in this topic at all if it's just blabber?

If you want to discuss, you discuss. If you don't want to discuss, then don't. No middle ground.

[Wolfwood]

Maybe there could also be a combat experience factor... Like for instance if your gren squad has killed lot of infantry, but no tanks, it'll recieve anti-small arms bonuses. If your PzIV has killed a greyhound, it's more likely to get increased accuracy or penetration vs. armor/vehicles.

I like that idea a lot. It would be a great anti blob tool.

[Ordovician]

I think it would add a bit of diversity to the veterency for Wehr. Something to allow the player to distinguish between squads.

It would also make wehr players want to babysit "cutom" created squads, because a new squad build after veterency was bought would have random bonuses, rather than specific ones.

[Ghostly_Gecko]

Generic bonuses against Infantry/Light Vehicles/Tanks/Buildings (lol) would be interesting. Your Gren squad kills 8 riflemen, they get +15% accuracy or something. However, the bonuses would have to have a symbol above the squad and be capped at a certain number, or things would get very confusing and imbalanced.

As for this:

I did read the whole post. I just didn't find any reason to comment on each section of that post, because most of it just blabbers about nothing, it doesn't raise the real problems. Thanks for your concern though.

Would you be so kind as to explain to all of us what the real problems are. I'm seeing a huge majority that agrees with DrC's ideas, and a few people who disagree, but you claim that his post doesn't even state the issues.

Instead of being condescending towards other members and contributing nothing, how about you tell us what the problems are or aren't, and improve the quality of this topic?


Someone said earlier that resorting to petty flaming would lead to a lock, which would get this topic a lot more attention. He didn't really mean it.

[wehrwolfzug]

As I read more suggestions and think about it some of the ideas are really cool. Let's say if the KKC is built. Combat experience collected by certain units is deposited there. Lets say if your pak takes out tanks or small armor it will deposit xp for you to choose upgrades such as increased fire rate, more stealth or moving speed. The same could happen for the other units. You could have different upgrades for other units. You could essentially design a very specific army for your playing style.

[AsI-IGear]

The only problem i have with the current werh vet system is that they all ready have the best tanks in the game an with vet no alliede tank has a chance .. thus ranger spam / Airborne / arty spam / brits simcity of 17 pounders spam.....

I like the idea of your units to gain exp in battle just like the us but i doubt that will ever happen like alot of people said it would simply take too long to balance it out ect ect ect.. And if it was to happen then what?? your grenadiers would have to come in 6 men an global lmg for your grens? or mp40 for wolks.... just thinking about it makes my head hurt ... an worse thought is copy faction i like Coh because no faction is the same

[draje175]

I vote to do what ordovician did, with the specialized buffs to the type of units that they did, or the one where they all earn vet, but the KKC reduces the xp required, kinda like the american supply depot, yard, thing... (forgot the name....... . ........ .... )

[Melonplant]

to be fair, american jeep vet is just as stupid.

[someboy]

actually wolverine spam + artillery spam can still kill axis tanks very fast.

[Eojinlim]

I am not sure if this was mentioned before but having the KKC be a structure where you can resurrect dead vet squads would be pretty cool.

Granted, to overcome it's obvious imbaness, you'd have to first research abilities to unlock that sort of ability.

Having to buy global veterancy from the KKC isn't very rewarding. Having vet 3 rifleman last for the entire game is VERY satisfying.

I don't know about the rest of you but whenever I see that one of my squads have gained veterancy, I am pretty happy.

As for the proponents arguing AGAINST changing the Wehr Vet system because it will somehow suddenly make the factions similar to each other, in all the RTS games I've played you need to have SOME similiarities for the sake of the enjoyment of the game.

The more I think about this idea of changing the veterancy system, the more I feel changes are absolutely necessary.

[someboy]

i don't think there are A lot of problems in late game except artillery spam. axis are way too weak at early game and need to keep up the harressment before getting tanks which is way too hard.

[GeneralGonzo]

i think the veterancy system for wher shouldn´t changed.

Imagine a squad of KCHs, which come very late into game facing ranger and upgraded (bars) rifle squads for sure (in worse case even veteran units). It´s the strongest Wehr anti-inf unit but without veterancy (and for its costs) stands no chance against uppefd rifles and/or rangers.
So the wehr player won´t earn much veterancy with his units simply because they are too weak. Volks against rifles ? No chance....even grens have a hard time without vet so I don´t see the point of changing the system without changing all wher infantry unit stats.

[slim]

Ok let me start by saying what an epic post coming in at 2110 words = 5 pages long in word (ok 4 and a bit)… I have no plan what so ever of writing any where near that much so I will only point out a few things and give the best possible solution at the end that I think will work.

After reading the OP all that I have come out thinking is you don’t want a buff or a nurf to wehrmacht vet system but rather a complete overhaul of how it’s applied.

A:

- US can purchase universal upgrades which bestow upon Riflemen increased combat effectiveness and new abilities (BARs, Grenades). In addition to this, Riflemen can gain increased combat effectiveness by killing stuff.

So true they do get both but

- Wehrmacht, on the other hand, can purchase universal upgrades which bestow upon their infantry increased combat effectiveness (veterancy). And that's it.

Not true granted they don’t get there combat effectiveness by killing stuff but rather buying it over time (this alone is what really gives wehrmacht its end game strength) but on an indivual level like Us vet they buy weapons that again increase there combat effectiveness

Therefore Wehrmacht gets increased combat effectiveness through buying shit where US get it through both free (I use the term lightly) methods vet and buying it Bars, nades, and stickies to sit there and say one should be changed with out looking at the other side would is just not right if Wehrmacht have to start earning there vet through killing then I would want global upgrades through buying stuff or the other way around get rid of the global upgrades like bars and make rife men need to pay for them

B, C and D: I’m going to combine these to as B is talking about well lets just say it useless vet or vet that can really be a disadvantage (Elite Armor). Where C is about ho the vets don’t match up and D is covering the 2 types coming back out of medic stations. Why is this so well lets look at the main difference in the 2 and this is going back to the global and buy upgrades/vet/what ever you want to call it. Now with US there main power comes from there vet as you pointed out comparing Vet 3 riflemen with KCH. As vet 3 get massive bonuses that they can not take with them when they get rased/ they lose it when they die but what they do get is there smaller inprovments such as bars and nades etc once you get them back. Now lets look at Wehrmacht there massive offencive bonus comes from there weapons shreacks/LMG/mp44 all of these you don’t get back but to make up for this you get there global upgrades of vet.

So I would like to say this if you want to give Wehrmacht the ability to earn vet then I would want to see massive buffs to there vet coz if I earn a 4 squad gren squad I would want it to last a lot longer then being one shotted by a nade or artily shell because that would make me cry. Now looking back at the buff’s/nurfs aka Elite armor could you not say yes incoming damage is reduced but they can be sniped easer to me this means that there counter has changed and to me this is what some vet should do make you better in some areas but worse in others cause lets face it it makes it better for game play by spreading the love and unit usage. As for why the sniper can not run well that was always so the snipers where at least different in some respects cause the Wehrmacht sniper had its double shot why that was taken away I will never know.

E: 4V4 need I really say more yes well you say this is where Wehrmacht vet realy becomes OP because each team mate can specialize and get vet on the other hand cant the allied players do the same now you refer to the days before OF as much as we all miss those days they are gorn and will probably never be back so in to days game you have arty spam and lots or it with at least 6-7/10 people saying that 3 brits and 1 US are OP because of not only the resources but the shear amount of artillery around as I said above a 4 man squad can get one shoted like no other so why can I get my veted gren or KCH back? they will only be shelled again.

F: well I’m not even going to comment on this

In conclusion congrats again on the massive post some of you points are very good how ever I really cant see any of it being implanted because it would require a Compleat overhaul of Wehrmacht not just the vet not just how its gained but everything granted they could just do this in the next exp and call it some thing different but still catchy like USA-2.0-WWS (USA 2.0 with Wehrmacht skins)

Granted this does not mean I don’t think its fine as it is what I have never gotten is why the units out on the field get vet so my mid way point that I was talking about is get rid of the units already out get vet but rather give them the chance to gain it. As for veted squads coming out I say perhaps they should start thinking about giving those squads that come out vet one on all sides coz lets face it they have seen combat( granted they where not good at it that’s why they where shot but never the less they have seen it so why not make it regardless of the current vet levels they some out with only 1 vet this goes for both US, Wehrmacht and PE.

this just my opinion and
I’m sorry if any of this has been coved b4 and for the shit spelling

[Kratos]

Wehrs squads are always smaller, 4 to 3, I don`t count volks in here because they are the tier 1 hold on till tier 2 unit.
The vetrency basically always only adds the toughness.

KCH with tripple offensive vet or defensive vet from the pe vet system would own tha shit.

/signed

[bonemachine]

What a wonderful dream.

I can think of a number of interesting ways to change it slightly that would require only a fair amount of balancing... ah well.

to be fair, american jeep vet is just as stupid.

I kinda like jeep vet, but increased site for the scout vehicles seemed like it would have made more sense than combat bonuses.

[Papinak]

Chuck Norris would never be a Grenadier

Well everyone knows, he is the R A N G E R :PP

srr got no time to read comments

[drChengele]

slim, thank you for a very coherent and constructive post. Of course that if Wehr vet is changed to any model involving combat experience, then veterancy effects themselves would need to be changed.

I am perfectly aware that changing Wehr vet at this point is simply impossible, Relic would never do such a crazy amount of rebalancing of existing factions. This is more of an idealistic dream, a "what if" thread. We are stuch with Wehr vet, such as it is, but it WOULD HAVE BEEN a lot better if Wehr got different sorts of veterancy.

I am not advocating the need for Wehr to have the exact same veterancy as US do, although, to be honest, the question poses itself: why the hell not? US and PE style veterancy are quite the same. But I am sure Relic could find many ways to make a kill-based veterancy that doesn't mirror that of the US, if only they tried really hard.

I am still naively keeping my fingers crossed that a Wehr campaign will fix this eventually...

[Skyline Pete]

I believe it's fine as is.

Everyone seems to say that the US vs Wher match up has almost always been even, yet you're now complaining that suddenly the Wher system is stronger?

And what are Vet 0 Volks going to do against Tommies, heck even Vet 0 Grens don't put up much of a fight. Going for exp through the KKC slows down Wher teching and it's a risk the Wher player has to take if he wants to stand a chance against the allies infantry.

[drChengele]

Yes, Pete, that is how it currently works. However, I don't recall ever complaining about a certain system being inherently stronger or weaker. It is just different, with a lot of advantages and disadvantages for Wehr. My point wasn't if Wehr vet is balanced. It was that Wehr vet is bad for the game overall, because it makes some issues that would otherwise be non-existent (perfectly outlined by the example of Medic bunkers).

And you ask what are vet0 Volks going to do against Tommies? Why, the same thing Vet2 Volks will do against Tommies. All that Volks get at Vet2 (that effects their fight vs Tommies) is 5% reduced damage.

Since you raise the point of vet0 Grenadiers, let me just say that you are looking at this the wrong way. You are acting as if I am suggesting "change veterancy and leave everything else intact". This would be idiotic. The change of veterancy would imply massive rebalancing. I am aware of this. That's why I am being realistic. This thread has a purely theoretical value.

If you are SO worried about Grenadiers needing their elite armor, I could see them being able to purchase elite armor as an upgrade in the KKC. This would be considered a universal upgrade, not "veterancy". Why not? PE get universal upgrades, squad weapon upgrades, AND veterancy.

[Adonnay]

What a great read... and I do agree. I never liked the veterancy system of the Wehrmacht, nor do I like the ones the Brits have now. Maybe I'm too old but I really like the experience based system the US and PE have, that's why I prefer the PE actually... not really because of the units.

[Leobardis]

I always thought the best way to balance it would be to keep the global upgrades (perhaps tweaked in the downward direction) and then introduce earned vet. the global upgrades remain worthwhile and a resource sink in order to SPECIALIZE your army, but the earned vet is the real gravy.