[SS 1.0] Reaver Jetbikes

[White_Pointer]

I think I recall a thread that was started about jetbikes some time ago, but it's moved off the balance forum pages now and I can't seem to find it.

If just one balance issue needs to be fixed in Soulstorm, it's Jetbikes. To put it bluntly, they are ridiculous and far too effective for what they are.

Pros:

- Dirt cheap at 80/30
- 1 pop cost
- Fast move speed (42 - fastest vehicle in the game)
- Can decap points
- High damage (over 26 DPS to most infantry types, 55DPS after splinter cannon upgrade)
- Fast build time (18 seconds)
- Available in tier 1
- Upgrades in tier 2 to nearly double HP and DPS and increase FOTM accuracy to 55%
- Vehicle armour (granted it's vehicle_low, but it's still vehicle armour in tier 1)

Cons:

- Low HP (400HP to start, 700HP with Night Shields, 1000HP with Shadow Fields)

The main problem with jetbikes is that they are simply available far too early and are far too easily massable. In fact, it's not uncommon to see DE players make multiple foundries to pump them out even faster. The DE doesn't even need to have a particularly solid economy to keep pumping them out either.

Races like IG and Tau are generally completed boned against massed jetbikes and can do nothing about them. Chaos, SM and SoB can handle them but require large masses of firepower or heavy weapons to do so and can only really do it if they know it's coming (and not always easy when there's usually hellions flying around). Orks are 50/50, seemingly be able to handle them in tier 1 but then get overrun once they hit tier 2. The only two races that usually don't have much of a problem with them are Necrons and Eldar - Necrons due to their race mechanics of not needing early map control and tough warriors, and Eldar with reapers doing pretty impressive damage to bikes and FoF. Necrons however have their own issues dealing with other DE units.

It's a touchy area though...because jetbikes HP is so low in tier 1, nerfing them too much will make them useless. But something needs to be done about them!

My proposed fixes:

- REMOVE ability to decap points. Seriously, this aspect about them is absolutely stupid when every other DE infantry unit can also decap. Sentinals can decap because IG don't get anything else in tier 2 that can. Wraiths can decap because Necrons don't have anything else besides scarabs. There is NO valid reason why jetbikes can decap points. None! Make DE use their infantry for this job like the other races do.

- Increase cost. Not by too much, as their low HP will make them worthless in tier 1 if they are priced too high - but 80/30 make them just about the cheapest tier 1 general combat units in the game! With just 2 generators a DE can just keep a constant production line going and it doesn't matter how many of them you kill off, they just keep coming. Think of what wartraks were like in vanilla DoW except about twice as bad. I'm thinking increase cost to 100/50 - which still makes them the cheapest vehicle in the game by a mile, but should solve the problem of their spammability nicely.

Discuss

White_Pointer

[ImmortalChaos]

I agree 100%, both of your fixes are near exactly what I was thinking. Only difference is that I woulda made them cost 80/50 and removed the ability to decap.

[santiago4ever]

I don't see how removing decap would make them less imba, the cost increase should certainly do it and might even be a tad too much imo. 90/40 and an increase in buildtime would be better I think, and even that might be a bit too much. We want to still have viable RJBs don't we? Also a nerf to their upgraded FoTM wouldn't hurt either imo.

The decap ability of the RJB is a design decision because DE is supposed to be all piratelike and harrassing and whatnot :P

[corncobman]

I think they should keep their decap ability, but decap at a slower rate.

[ImmortalChaos]

Well pirates are cool So I don't think the decap ability is that big an issue.

But srsly ~80/50 mabey 90/40 and 25 seconds build time sounds good to me.

[White_Pointer]

I think the build time increase is an overnerf. They only have 400HP in tier 1 - in comparison 1 pop landspeeders have 1050 HP and have a 30 second build time, but that's in tier 2.

I don't see how removing decap would make them less imba,

Simply because it'll force DE to bring infantry along to decap points, which will also help to reduce the amount of jetbike spam. The decap ability is simply overkill. There's a reason why units like Vespids can't decap.

White_Pointer

[mlai]

Leave RJB as is, except make them 2 pop each in tier 1. When DE reach tier 2, they automatically become 1 pop each.

This forces DE to have max 3 rather than max 6, with 1 slave pit built. In addition to the increased cost involved, it also helps delay mass RJBs a tad.

[DeadlyFred]

How about adding a stone/depot thing for them? Make it cost a little more and take a bit of time to "build", might at least delay the onset of spamming somewhat. Without having too much effect on the unit itself.

[White_Pointer]

Again, I think the pop increase is an overnerf. I'd thought long and hard about that one and decided against it.

On that thought however...how about making the DE start with zero vehicle pop, which then forces them to build a slave chamber before producing vehicles? Could be possibly another solution.

White_Pointer

[DeadlyFred]

As long as that doesn't mean they need to build more slave chambers to get their max.

[White_Pointer]

If they did need to build more slave chambers, it would only be one more than they currently need to build. That's not an altogether bad thing if the aim is to cut-down on jetbike spam.

White_Pointer

[Geno]

Forcing DE to build more Slave Chambers can cause problems later on since the things explode so easily. It would be too easy for other players to limit the amount of units they make by destroying them. Personally, I think they could use a cost and build time increase, but maybe balance it out by giving them slightly more hp.

If nothing works, there's always the option of hard-capping them.

[ImmortalChaos]

I'd like to see the build limit taken away from slave chambers. It's old leftovers from when slave chambers sped up your build times, and generally serves no putpose. Waagh banenrs and webgates are not capped either.

[Varsis]

If Jetbikes were somehow limited to 3 in T1 then I think they would still be effective enough when used smartly but not too much for races to handle. I like the idea of reducing DE veh pop, you could compensate by having Planetary Raid increase veh pop to normal levels in T2.

[fs_xyz]

Less vehicle pop gain from that building which used to give more pops. ( whatever its name )
Give no pop bonus if that building become a corpse generator.
Give more pop bonus if that building become an anti morale building.
For example : 1 unupgraded pop building give 2 vehicle pop, once upgraded to anti morale building, the bonus become 4.

[dtitov]

There was a topic on this already where it was beaten to death.
pop cap to 2 is the only viable nerf. Anything else will make jetbikes useless. The reason people get them is cuz they are cheap and spammable and you suggest nerfing that. Moreover there's little reason to nerf them as RJB spam can be countered with any poosing spam of any other variety, and in general easy to deal with for any competent player.


And this is not and arugment point (as it is really a problem of Eldar rather then DE) but without bikes you might as well quit DE v E game. Even now it's a very hard game for DE slightly favouring elf.


i direct you here for the lulz
http://dowsanctuary.com/index.php?sh...2&#entry367075

to show just how much of a threat are bikes against a player wtih at least half a brain.

[White_Pointer]

dtitov, you really are forgetting the fact that it's race dependent. Eldar probably have the easiest time dealing with bikes. CSM can do it too if they are fast enough massing HB's. That doesn't change the fact that jetbike spam completely hoses races like IG and Tau (unless your name is Santiago and you're about 10x better than your opponent) and to some extent, Orks, SoB and SM.

You can try to justify it all you want...the fact remains, massed jetbikes are broken. We're not talking 3 or 4 jetbikes as shown in that replay you linked to. We're talking at least double that, in tier 1.

If you want replay evidence of how stupid jetbikes are, then use this: http://dowsanctuary.com/index.php?showtopic=38829 - Servant builds almost nothing but jetbikes the entire game, getting pumped out of three foundries. From memory he doesn't build any infantry besides mandrakes the entire game until it was pretty much over.

White_Pointer

[MoschBoy]

seriously, you still have problems with JB?

[dtitov]

...what he said ^
@ servy replay. Yes. there are also replays of him totally hosing rjb spams, your point ?

Almost every race short of Tau and IG have mines and IG has the easiest time vs DE(and once again this not just me saying that but some decent players). Tau can beat bikes too - Anezti even posted anti DE builds on GR.org for tau whiners. Replays with him beating bikes easy. Should i really provide you with links or you just choose to close your eyes to the replays contrary to your opinions ?

To sum this up YOU might have a problem with RJB, they might be unbalanced to YOU, however i've seen replays of players of every race defeat RJB spam. Sorry that you can not beat bike spam but this is by no means a balance issue, but rather a player issue. May i suggest strategy forums on sanct, gr and here(most likely you will get the best+quickest replies and help @gr.org dowsanct has been quite trolly lately)

[ImmortalChaos]

Servie posts reps of him winning and losing with/vs bikes.

However AFAIK, his stance on the matter is something he obviously states in the games. Just watch the games and his comments about them It's obvious that he finds them quite imbalanced.

Mines a counter? What kind of DE players do you play? Bikes are the fastest ground units in the game. They can pretty much dodge all but the first explosion, and you've watsed 50 power.

[dtitov]

kek...sure let them dodge all they want.
You got your eco now and as soon as T2 rolls about any race can deal with bike spam, not to say that they can not T1.

Oh bikes do not dodge mines. Mines 1 hit kill bikes. And can even take few at a time if they run packed. Even hitting mines ONE time can ruin half or more of your army once that happened you are not massing anymore.

Anyway did you actually see the replay i posted ?

@Servy mention again.
To me it sounds more like he finds them cheesy and i agree. But spamming rjb -> cheesy = player's choice. It's not spamming rjb = imba = win game. Spamming DR = cheesy as well, so ?


basically it's like this DE spam bikes -> you spam counter -> you win(if de continues to spam bikes).

[White_Pointer]

IG has the easiest time vs DE

Oh really? Care to link to some replays that shows IG beating jetbike spam? IG has nothing that can stand up to jetbikes in tier 1, guardsmen melt like cheese. I'm not talking about 3-4 bikes here. I'm talking about 6-8 bikes. You know, actually a bike mass.

Tau can beat bikes too

I've seen a replay or two of Tau beating bikes, including one by santi. Does that mean they are balanced? I don't think so. The DE players getting beaten are generally not the skill level of their Tau opponents.

There were plenty of replays in DC of every race beating Necrons (in fact, arguably more replays of Necrons getting beaten than Necrons actually winning). According to your logic that means Necrons were balanced in DC too. Would you agree?

You got your eco now and as soon as T2 rolls about any race can deal with bike spam easy, not to say that they can not T1.

It's true most races can deal with bikes in tier 2. That's not the problem here, the problem is early game in tier 1.

White_Pointer

[generallchaos]

whitepointer, tau is the best anti DE race imo, people just dont know how to play anti de. I play both the races, so i know what works and what doesnt.

Bikes are imba, but in some mus they are the only thing that works. nerf bikes, but make hob builds better. give warriors some kind of scaling to tier 2, cause right now, they are almost useless as soon as tier 2 hits. Bikes scale from tier 1 to tier 3.

[dtitov]

They guy above ^^. First Pro player that i've seen outright saying Bikes are imba. You are still way off your mark though pointer, or so both me and him tend to think. Tau beat bikes they really do and so do IG. I'd find the replays but judging by your logic nothing can be proven by replays. Why bother then, nothing will sway your opinion will it now ?
Anyway early T1 the most you will have is 6 bikes and you just said when we are talking mass we are not talking about 4 bikes etc. So which is it then ?


That said i would love to see bikes being nerfed if they boost HOB builds and warriors scaling in particular. But not thourhg price. Your problem with bike is spamminess and i agree it's cheese. Well make them 2 pop cap problem solved. 3 bikes early tier 1 by your own definition hardly a mass.

Yeah that Eldar matchup...:S. Bikes are the only thing that will keep you alive.

[4Servant]

I want 20 bikes in t2 bitches! How else am I supposed to win EAS then?

Stick effort in playing? no waaaaaaaaay

Bikes are more lol in 2n2 actualy cause no way to harras DE till they got 2 fac and 10k of bike.

[CyberFish]

The balance fixes suggested in the first couple of posts look perfectly sane, but they should be coupled with a small buff to HoB builds (warrior scalability pls), or DE get utterly hosed in some matchups.

The sensible change is to either increase the cost, increase the build time (I favour this one), or twiddle the pop cost somehow (DE start with 0 vpop, OR rjbs cost 2 vpop in tier 1). I'd prefer not to remove the decapping ability. That way, even if they end up overnerfed, they're still useful as decapping units.

[ImmortalChaos]

I'd suggest the following changes to warriors and their scaling:

-Wraithbone armor to T1.5
-Soulseeker ammo increases range to 25
-Raider pop cost to 2

Raiders are pretty much THE way warriors scale, they get mobility, durability, a nice ability, and some AV damage. Problem is they are soo expensive to use due to the fact thay you need an extra slave chamber for each one, and its rare that warriors have enough HP to last to T2 anyways,

[DeadlyFred]

I still don't really accept that as an excuse to have Warriors be utterly eaten alive when on foot by, pretty much anything post T1 :-/

[dtitov]

25 should be default range imho. That's the standard 'short' range for most infantry, i see no reason for warriors to be different and i do not think 3 range increase will break them. Soulseeker should add 5 more range to 30(still less then Heavy weapons ranges so no imba there imo). Agree with other DE changes and your proposed fix to DE powers is also nice.

BUT nerfing bikes through cost imo is not right 2 pop cap is the solution that deals directly with aforementioned spamminess while still leaving bikes good. I strongly beleive that is the best nerf for bikes.

lol @ serv troll.

[ImmortalChaos]

25 is the standard range for infantry in general. 20-22 is the "short" range.

[mlai]

Agree with dtitove on RJB. Change only the RJB spamminess, and only in tier 1. The alternative of DE starting off with 0 veh pop is essentially the same thing.

Disagree with giving Warriors 25 range in tier 1, and 30 range in tier 2. This will make them OP in tier 1. They are not normal troops; they are troops with perma-semi-FoF and no movement penalty in cover. Giving them 30 range in tier 2 makes AI Scourges redundant.

This is the sensible way to scale them.
-Wraithbone armor to T1.5
-Soulseeker ammo increases range to 25
-Raider pop cost to 2

[Golden Dragoon]

Why not change their Armour type to Heavy High so they don't just screw over some troops? Once the Dark Eld hit tier2 their armour changes to Vehicle Low?

[DeadlyFred]

There really is no "standard" short range for infantry. Necron Warriors have 17, Seraphim have 19, etc. 25 is pretty much the norm, even for melee specialists.

[War-Reborn]

90/40 and a small build time increase seems the right way to go as posted by someone at the start of this thread, a small nerf but nothing thats going to take RJB out of the game, the whole point of the RJB is as an alternative to the standard infantry/commander opening builds of everyother race, it's nice to have differant options so while a small nerf may be in order don't get carried away

[Makenshi]

Stick effort in playing? no waaaaaaaaay

lol @ serv troll

He's saying the truth, not trolling. I vote nerf bike (choose a way) + improve warriors (the way Immortal proposed).

[DeadlyFred]

No one likes the RJB stone idea? Seems like it would make them more costly to get going as well as making it take longer, even if you opted to build another DF.

[ViS]

Pfft. Adding a stone will either make the RJB unviable or have no impact at all. Honest. The price of the stone technically decreases with each bike you build and considering how easy it already is to get RJBs off the ground...

[Makenshi]

I hate stones for IG and have no love for them in Eldar... no stones for DE, imo.

[mlai]

Using stones is a gameplay mechanism which encourages spamming. It's equivalent to saying "You just plunked down x req/ x pow for this stone. It's not worth it to make simply 1-2 of these units for tactical support. You must spam at least 6 to make buying the stone worth your while."

It was instituted for Eldar because DOW Eldar was a hard counter race, i.e. Eldar Aspect X Spam to counter Enemy Y Spam. It also made some sense for IG because IG is supposed to be about vehicular spam.

With DE, we're trying to cure the spam.

[TheMiracul]

I would
a) move them to t2, increase cost and give them those upgrades from the start on (making something like land speeders out of them)
b) give them a hard cap of 2 in t1 and maybe 6 in t2 and increase build speed by 10 seconds
c) a combination of both a) and b)

But surely, no stones... agree with mlai on this

[steel_tomatoes]

Well jetbikes are the only real alternative to Warriors in T1 so if you moved them to T2 then DE is stuffed on matchups where Warriors are sure to get hosed in t1 (eldar, tau). Hellions are ok but have a niche role of early harass, I would hate to have to rely on them until wyches/vehicles are available.

If you wanted to use hardcaps then 2 in T1 is huge overnerf. Maybe hardcap at 6 like chimeras I believe.

I also don't like putting their squad cap up to 2. Its gotta be the smallest vehicle in the game it has a 1 man crew it would seem ridiculous to make them cap at 2. We should be able to achieve balance without making things so illogical.

Making DE start with 0 vehicle pop seems better thus forcing them to get an extra pit for bikes, I reckon either do that or hardcap at 6.

If nothing else is done, at least remove the decap ability.

[ViS]

Don't hardcap them at 6. You will not believe the a mount of epic lulz I got from 20/20 bikes today.

[generallchaos]

maybe give the warriors nade knockback, so i can actually prevent a ranged mass from shooting for a few seconds. Decrease raider pop cap, and give warriors a bit more range. Scourges are alot cheaper then getting warriors + foundry + slave chambers + raiders.

[SpArTy]

Power cost up by 10 or pop cap up by one would work for me.

Not both though.

Greater warrior scaling, not buffs straight off the bat would be great, as well as an overhaul for the rest of DE vehicles.

[Kam!kazee]

Just played a few test games, and bike spam really is too viable.
Building_low damage felt much too high. Once you have 6+ raiding gens becomes far too easy.
LPs die fast too and they can decap. I guess one problem might be the way DE vehicles and especially bikes scale.
Most races have one vehicle hp upgrade, DE have two.
Plus, what makes bikes really strong for such a cheap unit, the targeting module raises FotM, accuracy and doubles damage.

Once they reach critical mass (around 6+) and the economy supports a 2 foundry spam AV infantry has no effect on them.

[DeadlyFred]

If RJB don't scale well enough singularly to be viable units unless spammed, no one would use them unless its for that purpose. Honestly that's pretty much the case already once there is some AV power on the field. A few RJB floating around can be mildly useful but in small quantities they pretty much drop like flies.

[killer-ra]

85/40 + start pop at zero. They hit three minutes in. More expensive is the way to go.

All DE is doing other than spamming RJB is reinforcing Hellions, building gens, and pushing the T2 button; the price increase isn't crippling.

[steel_tomatoes]

Well even 6 of them is not to be sneezed at in T1. Thats usually all I have at one time if I do a DF build (ok so I haven't refined my RJB spam strategy). If I still have them in T2 I get the upgrade sure, but either way I start to focus on T2 units.

If you hardcapped them at 6 I believe they would still be a viable force in T1 but by T2 the DE will be forced to use more variety of units. Upgraded, 6 bikes could still be good support to the main army, they just won't be the *entire* army.

I'm not married to the idea, in fact I'm not even certain 6 is the right number, though you wouldn't want many more or its a spam big enough to reach critical mass.

[mlai]

6 is most often the number ppl get that constitutes the tier-1-spam-win strategy. It's the number allowed with 1 slave pit. So capping it at 6 does nothing to address the tier 1 problem (where it's most important).

[_McGr3g_]

my changes would be sth alike:
starting veh pop - 2 (doesnt change amount of sc required to get max and allows to build up to 5 after 1st research)
bike buildtime +2 sec (tad harder to spam)
bike cost + 10/10 (tad hader to spam)
targeting module require wytch cult arena (played as them and against them for a while, imo this t2 up makes them so strong when t2 hits, its cheap and almost no brainer, delaying it may be worth a try)
both shields increase rjb hp by 250 instead of 300 (tad worse scaling)
hellion buildtime reduced to 35 (to compensate)
slave chamber with gruesome add-on can detect in small radius(small buff to detection and to structer as well)
HoB cost reduced to 220(make hob builds more viable)
drake infiltration require homo lab(2 fast and 2 cheap, esp if HoB builds would be more viable)
warrior starting cost reduced to 140(make HoB more viable)
raider vehpop reduced to 2(better scaling for warriors, and with reduced starting veh pop this is needed)
raven moved to t2.5 (t2 but require wytch cult arena)
warp beast av dmg reduced by at least 30% (would stop builds consisting of spamming bikes til tier 3 and the anti-all beasts)
malediction research require t3 (thats just by the way:P )

of course that all requires balance testing since its theorycraftin atm withous s.o. playin it for real. also other races are gonna be adjusted/nerfed as well if there will be a patch.

i dont like some of the changes here, like de veh pop startin from 0 - it affects HoB builds as well, u will need 2 slave chambers to "scale" your warriors by raiders, so imo this one is bad.