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So watching the new video give me an idea, since we can use buildings and terrain to our advantage, the experienced players who understand the aspects of certain maps get indefinite advantages.
Now I was thinking wouldn't it be raw as hell if the building and terrain were to be randomized in maps. Better yet if the player get some decision on where to place their base like in tabletop.
You guys think its possible or am I just 10 years too early.
Its a cool idea southlegion, I like it. You can get randomised map generators, I mean C&C Tiberian sun had one, albeit it was very simplified and often produced bizarre results. (IE putting most of the resources near one player and none for the other). I guess with today's technology you would have thought it possible to build an engine capable of producing something good. But the question remains, does random equal fair for all players?
Err... maybe. Only if they set it up so that it is possible to get to every single point with every single unit in the game (including gigantic units like the baneblade) no matter what the random elements acted like.
Random map generator would be awesome, but ...
"does random equal fair?"
hmmm...I don't like where you're going here. not my cup of tea. I do NOT like symmetrical maps, or even roughly symetrical maps. I'd prefer to have a completely new and unknown map that I had to explore, and then decide how to make the most of the randomly arranged terrain.
ok so my left flank is pretty open. deal with it. this canyon is a complete bottleneck. deal with it.
Even if it put me at a disdvantage, I don't care, if the game is as tactical as they're going for, and not just "out produce and outnumber", then it should still be winnable if you're good. and I'd enjoy the challenge. a battle of wits and cunning, not a battle of build order and eco.
Sure they can include symmetrical maps and heavily tested maps for the competitive people, but they should keep random, potentially unbalanced maps in for the rest of us.
So, by all means include lots of perfectly balanced maps, with the game and in updates/patches/expansions, but also try to include some not so balanced ones, for people who play for fun and fancy a challenge.
and if you CAN include a map generator, please don't restrict it to symmetrical maps. it could easily be player choice:
random
random (symmetric)
and a symmetric map would be just as easy to generate randomly anyway.
[TBG]aJiong
If Random Maps generators were in Tiberian Sun, Redalert 2, and Soldier of Furtune 2 then i think it should feasible for DOW 2 ^_^
The maps in DoW2 are more complex, though that doesn't mean it isn't possible.
even though the maps in DOW 2 look really quite 3 dimensional, and very intricate too,
If their generator can cope with the intricacies and multiple levels and 3 dimensionality of the designed maps, then that'd just be excellent.
however, if they had a map generator that had to stick to flatter, more simple maps, it would still be well worth putting in.
I'd prefer them to implant new maps on a monthly basis from player submitted maps, checked over by the devs.
Unless of course they can make a decent enough map generator which can create balanced and fun maps which make sense, I've seen some pretty whacky maps created from map generators.
J_the_d don't get me wrong I really don't like symmetrical maps, I much prefer varied terrain where each side looks unique. Trouble is I think back to the day when I used the Tib Sun generator it wasnt much fun when you had to go all the way round a huge lake to get to your tiberium field, and your opponent has one next to him. You get the idea
It would be a lot easier in DoW2, then, because (and I am 100% sure of tHIS),there is no resource gathering like in tib sun.
There may be resource generation of some kind, but we aren't sure what yet, and more than likely it'll be sector-based-- which allows the generator to balance it based on travel times from one's home sector.
i think the maps will be alot more mirror than CoH... none of the COH mirrors are exactly mirrors, they play out just fine... i doubt there will be a random map generator... just ask any CoH mapper how long it takes to make a good map... i say at least 60+ hrs... i doubt there can be a map generator for complicated maps...
plus after a few explosions the map will change randomly... so theres really no point
Yeah I know there is no Tiberium fields or something like it for DoW Blackheart, but if theres anything like 'capturing the bunker' gains you extra resources, and that bunker appears right outside your base (or start position - whatever), and your opponent has his resource a lot further away... who gets the advantage? Do you see what I mean?
There's never been anything like that in CoH. The only thing there is is capturing points like in DoW-- andthose points give a small, but steady amount of resource income. Thus, any randomization feature (if it's active) can be programmed to balance what points give what resource in what amount so that they don't give any extra bonus to either side.
No, I was just speculating about the resource system in DoW2
Basically, in my head, resources are rewarded to a player for capturing locations similar to CoH but not restricted to a point but an area (the bunker was just an example). So you have your squad of guys on top the bunker defending for a certain period of time and once 'captured' provides you with more resources, whatever they may be.
But I'm going a little off topic, I agree with you that if there was going to be a randomisation feature it would have to make it so both sides received fair opportunities for resources, even if the terrain made things more interesting.
#15
There is absolutely no comparison between the level of complexity in something like a map for a C&C game and something like CoH or DoW2. Even in C&C3 many people's idea of a perfect map is just a blank, featureless plain. I'm not sure how you think that it should be easy to make a random map generator that produces good results for DoW2 when it doesn't even work well for something as simple as C&C.
Sturmtruppen is right in his assessment of how long it takes to make a map for CoH (and that's just for a small 1v1 map) and even then it's not guaranteed to be perfectly balanced no matter how well planed out it was. Expecting a random generator do be able to do anything like this is simply asking too much. Even if you didn't expect it to produce maps that were at all balanced and just wanted to play them for fun the map generator would require a tonne of work just so that it could produce something that would be pathable and meet the kind of visual standard that Relic pride themselves on delivering.
Anyway, with regard to CoH, the great thing is that battles almost always play out differently every time and the fighting shapes the battlefield. So having a few very good maps is much better in the long run that having lots of poor maps.
With any luck they will also make it easier to incorporate custom maps made by the community into the game.
Cake can change the nature of a man!
there is a cheap way to randomize maps, just let the map itself randomly drop a bunch of bombs on itself when the game starts, and you got a different map in terms of craters and cover placements every time... i just dont see a generator in DoW2, a map can have billions of elements
if DOW2 doesn't have anything like C&C resource gathering, or even DOW1 point capturing resource generation, then the map is purely a battlefield and the whole "balanced resource" aspect of it is moot. so that's one issue out of the way.
then, obviously when you're talking abou tcreating anything quickly or randomly, it's obviously a lot quicker to have some premade component parts, that get put together:
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IDEA 1
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a "random" map could consist of the following:
- terrain (not generated, but selected from one of several premade terrain "templates", texture set could be randomised, but the actual undulations and shape of the terrain is fixed for each terrain "template")
- buildings (there will also be a stock of premade buildings that can be randomly placed on the map by the generator, the amoutn of buildings and the type could be randomised, or made according to a plyer set slider. To prevent the generator placing buildings in a way that somehow breaks the map, the terrain templates can be coded as to which areas of them buildings can be placed. The generator will only place buildings randomly within these areas.
- other objects (trees[single and clumps], pillars, crates, barrels, statues, vehicle wrecks, etc. These can also be placed randomly around the terrain template, but following the underlying templates coding so they never get placed somewhere they shouldn't.
If you had quite a few, varied, terrain templates, then this might be able to generate scores of unique and "new" maps to play on. and shouldn't be too hard to program.
[it's actually like how TT players make their battlefields: underlying terrain, place on buildings walls and objects as they like to make it different from last time.]
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IDEA 2
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This idea is similar to the above in the fact that it is based on having predefined "pieces" that we put together.
If you can imagine a big map cut up into say 16 equal squares (4x4), and we call each of these squares a "map tile". Each map tile is fully made, with trees and buildings etc already made. It is in effect, a tiny map.
The idea is that we put together, rearrange, rotate, and swap out the map tiles to make a completely new map.
If there is a stockpile of say, 100 map tiles, the possibilities are staggering.
The problem is that the map tiles edges will have to be compatible. The easiest way to do this would be to make every edge flatten out, and have no objects actually on the edge. This would look like a thin, flat "margin" around every map tile.
The maptiles could then be placed together to create a new map. however the "tiled" nature of it would be quite apparent probably, unless terrain in general was kept quite flat.
This would still work very well, however, on urban city maps, where the flat empty space around each tile could easily be explained and textured as just another street. So you are effectively rearranging, rotating, and swapping out "city blocks". Some could have small buildings and back alleys, some could have an open space or a monument in a square, some could have just one huge cathedral or temple.
It'd defninitely work for urban maps.
It'd also work pretty well for flattish maps of other terrains; a grassy plain or a desert with buildings, craters, boulders and some scattered clumps of trees.
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It's not ideal, but it does mean you get to have random maps.
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IDEA 3
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combine ideas 1 and 2. you have terrain template tiles, which can be rearranged and put together a thousand different ways, these template tiles also are coded to have areas where buildings can be placed. These areas can go right to the edge of the tile, and so if it is put next to a tile edge which also has that coding, then the two areas will be joined and a building could be placed overlapping the two tiles by the generator.
if it is next to a tile which doesn't continue its coding, then fine, that's just the edge of the coded area. even if it is a weird straight edge, it wouldn't be apparent once the buildings and object were placed within the area.
This idea would be the most flexible and most randomised, but would still be limited in that the map tiles would all have to be on the same level, even if the tiles themselves were undulating and 3 dimensional.
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I like Idea 3 best, but the other two ould be just as good. and shouldn't be too hard to program.
Waht do you think? 1, 2 or 3? or do you have a 4th?
Whats it good for?
I mean who would ever use it?
Certainly noone will want it in online games since it will invariably give some players an edge over others due to better placement, better cover, better access to tactical points, etc.
And in single player why bother? actually why bother with single player at all after you finish the campagin?
don't see it..
Random maps have been in for ages. First I recall from Warlords 2 Deluxe and it worked perfectly well. You adjusted how much water, trees, rough land etc. you wanted and the map was created (or you could set em to random as well). I think the map in W2D was displayed before it was played so you could see beforehand if it ended up good or bad.
It would be perfectly doable for DoW as well though programming would take time, but you'd have basic principles like how many critical locations you want and then they would be distributed equal away from each starting point. You could also scale building count (urban vs rural).
Overlord of the Demonic Monsters
The Essence engine is too complicated to allow random map generation. The only games that have random map generators were grid based and even then they usually make crappy maps.
#21
I'm inclined to agree with Busby in this case. A random map generator isn't going to work with the complicated maps Dawn of War 2 is likely to have. The gradients of cover and negative cover, the window facing on the structures, the locations of the strategic points and so on.
I feel it's much better to have a coherent map crafted by a human hand anyways.
You could eventually make a random generator that works fine always but noone playing competitively would ever trust it enough to use it in any case, and it'll be much more effecient and cheaper to just make a couple of more maps by hand or release an map editor
the hwole idea was to have lots of properly made and designed and tested maps, and ALSO a map generator.
I don't think anyone for a second suggested replacing designed maps solely with a map generator. it would be in addition to the proper maps.
and did no-one read my ideas? don't you think they could work for DOW2?
and if there are a few "oddities" about the maps, so what, deal with it and try to win anyway.
damn, I see where you guys are coming at, I agree randomizing the whole map would not work in DOW however what if we have a area of randomization. Like the points and locations are set but some terrains and buildings aren't.
@Sturmtruppen, I like your idea maybe we should have a mission/map like that.
On bases of fairness, real battles aren't fair, if we can have something like this it would be closer to what real battle would be like. Where the commanders need to analysis unfamiliar situations immediately and find the best possible solution. That is the true test of skill beyond that of APM or anything in between. If anything I think it could increase competitiveness if it’s done right.
Plus it would encourage scouting.
#25
Truly random map generation is impossible given the complexity of the maps in question. However..
Pseudo-Random map generation is possible in Dawn of War. It involves some silly tinkering with SCAR, and effectively making the map X number of times on the same map - but it is possible (although the heightmap cannot change.)
example - a 1v1 map that is entirely city fight. You could have one version that is with undamaged buidlings, one that is ruins and one that has something in between. The LAYOUT and IMPASSABILITY and location of the strat points would be different for each version.
When the map loads SCAR scripts select one of the three possible versions and spawns that.
It's not entirely random, and does rely on the map maker creating three versions of a map(Which is bloody hard) but it is possible. DOW2 could have something like this but it is entirely unlikely. I sincerely hope that Relic/THQ will invest a mountain of time making DOW2 balanced, bug free and enjoyable at every competetive level. Map creation will need to remove randomness to achieve full and effective balance, especially if Relic want DOW2 to be part of any kind of international Cybergames/olympics etc.
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I have to agree with the above posters, saying that generating random maps for DOWII is not feasable at all.
In my opinion it would be much better if relic made it possible to download maps ingame. That way custom maps would be more common and you could get some fresh battlefields quite easily, while keeping up the quality.
i think downloading custom maps would also cause alot of "map hacking" but really if a random map generator works id love to use it balanced or not.
Random maps =/= quality maps. I'd rather have 4 extremely fun, highly playtested, and thoroughly balanced maps, than 1000 maps that are absolute garbage.
I just don't trust random map generators at all. Too many people will blame their losses on the map because it favored their opponents. "He had too much cover on his side" or "it was too easy to bottleneck my units on my side"...
I find your lack of skepticism disturbing.
I'd rather have 20 fun, playtested, balanced maps than 4 extremely fun, highly playtestd, and thoroughly balanced maps.
I learned from CoH (and certain TF2 servers) that just having 4 maps you play very often is extremely frickin' boring and tedious.
I rather not see it since the problems of random generated content is huge.
I'd like to see randomized weather and time of day, but generally I think a hand carved map made with extra attention to detail and game design by a human would by far preferable to random maps, even if it gets old after a while.
If anything I'd like them to do like they did with the DC patch- Add (good) community maps in wherever possible. This would certainly solve the issue that randomized maps is trying to solve, but in a much better way.
@Blackheart
You completely missed the point of my post.
Admittedly, I haven't read the whole thread (just the first page and a bit), but I don't much like the idea of a random map generator, and for a simple reason: they tend not to make fun maps. Even if the map is perfectly balanced, numerically, it won't have the deliberate chokepoints, the specially placed cover zones and strategic points of interest that good map-builders craft into their maps to make them interesting and fun to play. All of the Relic maps for CoH are great, and though there aren't many, I never feel like I'm running out of maps to play, just because they're interesting. That takes a lot of thought and skill to make, and random generators just don't do that.
I understood the point. I didn't respond to it, I spoke out on a tengent.
I read all the posts so im gonna give my 2 cents now.
apologies in advance for going off the tangent a bit.
Random maps would be a cool addition to the game, and who said war is meant to be fair....if it was, the taliban would have some serious firepower to contend with.
ok, i admit on most levels, that was a really stupid thing to say but yesterday i was playing a 3v3 match which we were loosing because it went down to 2v3 but we still won...
why u ask.
Its because of the skill of the players in the game.
If your a noob vs a pro and the noob had ALL THE ADVANTAGES i think the pro would still come out on top.
The same goes for the taliban thing, We are superior on every level of weaponry but they are still putting up a fight because the are really skilled at what they do and that is why no one has every successfully occupied Afganistan.
Yes, random maps could be a pain but as an option, it would be fun to have. Also being able to play a muck about game of "worms" but with 40K charcters would be immence for a laugh.
Dont think it will be in DOW2 but go on relic, have some fun
You know you are getting old when you worry about outrunning zombies
Actually, if you "cut down" on the randomness, you can still have a random map generator. Basically you choose a map type:
City, Open field, Ork Fortress, etc
The game takes "Sections" of a city and then link them together. Each "section" wiil be predetermined and brought out from similar maps. Before that point, you would have gone through some options like amount of avalible cover, amount of strategic points, etc. The game drops bombs onto the city as your units hit the dirt, and spawns strategic points at pre-determined locations within each of the "sections".
jon_the_d, I like your ideas about random maps (well, I like your ideas in general) and I think it is doable even with the level of complexity of DoW 2 maps.
As for those who don't see the point of such inherently "unbalanced" maps, think of it this way: you're not generating "maps", you're generating "battlefields" -- mere patches of land with some strategic value (why fight for them otherwise), to which the combatants must adapt. I realize not all modes of play would be suited for this type of maps, but there could be objective-based modes of play that are unique to this type of maps. And I think some of these modes can even be made to work for competitive play (by switching sides for example -- the one with better tactics wins).
Last edited by creepiest dani; 13th Jun 08 at 4:18 AM.
creepiest dani,
thanks for your support!
yesterday I was playing on counterstrike, and it occured to me how completely natural (ie: NOT perfectly symmetrical or "designed") the maps are. Office, dust 2, italy, whatever. all the proper maps are just places to fight.
I was thinking how come nobody complains about balanced maps on CS (the I rememebred that some people complain about aztec, but only when they're losing, battles on aztec can be jsut as balanced, and usually are.) Anyway, what I came up with is what creepiest dani just hit on.
The CT's and the T's have different objectives. hostages, or bomb, the two sides have differnet objectives to accomplish. So yeah, maybe by making certain objective based modes of play, as dani suggested, it would illiminate any imbalance in the game, and again, as dani said, by swapping roles, it is undeniably fair.
Even in a straight "annhilation" game, I still think such maps would be fun, and just cos you don't think it would be fun, doesn't mean they shouldn't put it in the game for the rest of us.
It should be doable, it should be fun.
Do it!
#39
There are plenty of maps in CS which are totally unbalanced, and favor one side or the other. The reason it's not such a big deal is because in tournament games where balance matters, both teams play both sides. So the balance isn't a factor.
A game like DoW2 will most likely have a very different tournament (or ladder) game set up, and you probably won't play both sides of a map. So the balance factors become much more important in that scenario. Even so, I think this would be an awesome option for casual games. It would add quite a bit of replay value.
I think an option to use randomly generated maps would be awesome. Putting it in the Automatch mode would give a huge tactical boost to the game, as you cannot just memorize the attack patterns from map to map. Now, some good, well-thought out and consistent (not necessarily symmetrical. I, for one, hate symmetry - it looks nothing like a true battlefield. It possible to balance without it) maps would be fine and dandy. Especially if they had themed maps, such as fortress defenses, or the like. But a random generator would be amazing.
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