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why should we censor things ?

  1. #1
    Member sang's Avatar
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    Politics why should we censor things ?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_T..._controversies

    I was looking at this and it got me thinking. Why do we censor things for the young ? The biggest thing i cant understand is why sex is something that is deemed unsuitable for children to know about. As far as i can see there is no logical reason. Its just as nachural eating so why is there such a taboo on it ?. Next is cursing the words are just words sounds that come from the vocal cords. we need to understand that they are only what we think them to be and its what we put on them that make them good or bad. Next is violence there is nothing wrong with letting them see it. True they do have a absorbing mind but its not going to turn them to killers they know what is right and wrong. The biggest thing that got me from that was the Mothers Against Drunk Driving. The thing i want to yell to them is .IT'S JUST A GAME ! In real life to go Drunk Driving is very stupid but its not real life. When they said "Drunk driving is not a game and it is not a joke," yes it's not a game but you are playing it in a game so it is a game. Why cant you make jokes out of it ? If you cant than you are saying whats funny and whats not ,its all Ok or none of it is. Back to the point. Why do we fill the need to hide away are young to the real world when they are going to find out about it anyway
    Last edited by sang; 11th Jun 08 at 8:38 AM.
    If there’s one thing I know you can’t control evil. You can lock it up you can burn it and bury it and pray that it dies but it never will it just rests awhile. You can lock your doors and pray at night but the evils out there waiting and maybe just maybe its closer than you think.

  2. #2
    I don't like censorship, but your arguments aren't very strong. What exactly does "swearing is just sounds coming from your vocal chords" mean? You could say that about almost anything without taking into account the social consequences of that action. If it is just a random sound, why give it a name in the first place?

    My argument as for why showing kids everything isn't wise is that kids biologically aren't developed to the extent that they can understand them. A lot of things are intensely scary or unpleasant to kids, more so than they are to us, and I don't think it's fair to do that to them while us "big people" have rationality on our sides to dampen our fears. I was scared to death of nuclear weapons as a kid, because they seemed like something that could and probably would vaporise me randomly at any time. I didn't understand politics, or that there are a hell of a lot of measures put in place to stop them being used. To me they were just scary things that bad people used, and that was enough.

    I also thought that by going to America, you'd get shot, because everyone shoots each other in America.
    Last edited by Zir; 11th Jun 08 at 8:44 AM.

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  3. #3
    Member sang's Avatar
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    If they dont understand then lets give them understanding we tell them not to worry and if they are still scared because it dose not make sense then let them find it out in there own way.Just hiding them from it will only make them unable to let them deal with it in later life . I dont think we should show them evarything bad in one go that would all most kill them. I am thinking censors to 5 to 15 in that time they can deal with it.

  4. #4
    I'm super cerial Energizer Bunny's Avatar
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    Since you're focussing on censorship to the young, I'll stay away from discussing other forms of censorship.

    There are a couple of logical reasons for censoring material to children

    1. They may well not have development suitably robust personalities/psyches to be able to properly understand and deal with what they are seeing.

    2. The material in question may harm the child's development. One of the roles of a parent is to teach a child how to interract with different people in different situations. The use of profanity in the wrong situation can easily cause offence. A young child is very likely to be unable to judge when is or is not an acceptable situation to swear. You'll see a hell of a lot of strawman arguements in this thread, but I'd be very suprised if many posters would swear repeatedly in front of their own or somebody elses toddler.

    It's a nice idea, but I can't see this thread going anywhere other than an endless stream of 'but I played Grand Theft Auto from the age of 5 and I'm fucking awesome' responses.

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    True they do have a absorbing mind but its not going to turn them to killers they know what is right and wrong.
    Probably not, but i can't say that it is particularly good for them when they look at violent stuff 24/7.
    I'm not really for censoring stuff since games like GTA have an age restriction for a reason. (Hello thar parents) But i would never downplay the effect that these things can have on children. While it doesn't turn them into killers overnight it can have a negative effect on them. It varies obviously greatly from person to person.

    I say let children have a childhood. They don't need to see or know the horrors (or pleasures ) of the world the second they can hold a game controller. They will have enough of that when they grow up.
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  6. #6
    Member sang's Avatar
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    So what do you class as a childhood ?

  7. #7
    I'm super cerial Energizer Bunny's Avatar
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    That would be the million dollar question. You aren't going to get an answer either - other than that it varies from person to person.

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    Didn't we just have the porn discussion like two weeks ago? I suggest that you try to discuss the general concept of censorship rather than focusing on just sex.

  9. #9
    Most people look back at innocence as a good thing. A lot of people miss it. You can easily grow up too fast and be a pretentious grump by the time you're 25, and those sort of people aren't exactly enviable.

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    Its too much effort(or embarassment, not that thats a valid excuse) for (too) many people to provide a proper context or frame of reference for young 'uns outside of "That's bad/naughty/evil/sinful" when it comes to matters of sex,uncouth/disrespectful behaviour, drink/drugs and to a lesser degree violence.

    It's an easier and quicker fix to just try and hide/ignore all the bad stuff until the poor bastards actually have to deal with it, then we get to tut and write letters to the daily mail about the "yoof today" and fear of hoodies/feral teens, how the army'd sort them out even though we havent had conscription for about 50 years now.

    Or blame the teachers for not teaching kids about it, its what we pay them for.


    Unless they teach them about same-sex relationships,contraception or alt. life styles, then they are abusing our trust and wasting our money,corrupting the "yoof".
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    Censorship of this kind should be left to the parent, not the government to decide. It's a total waste of money when the government is supposed to raise people's children because they're too busy chasing their careers and can't afford to spend time with their children.

  12. #12
    Sorry but I didn't know the goverment decided things for the parent. Does the goverment stop parents from teaching their kids about stuff? No of course not. Does the goverment Stop the parent from buying Adult movies or games for the child? Nope.

    I actually see no way the goverment can really decide what the child sees or hears. It's the parents which do that, Ratings are just advice for them - Good advice.

    Unless you think children should be seeing Lesbo Adventures XXX, As you believe there shouldn't be censorship. Heck I'd even say playing GTA4 is bad for children, as they can be effected by it.

    Sure it won't turn them into killers or car-jackers, but it's exposing them to adult orientated material which kids just aren't mature enough to understand.

    It really isn't a question on how "old" someone should be before they can see adult stuff, I'd say it should be more along the lines of "How" mature they are and a good parent should know and understand that.

  13. #13
    Member sang's Avatar
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    I keep hearing "aren't mature enough to understand" whats not to understand ?

  14. #14
    A hell of a fucking lot. What's not to understand about that?

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    Member snrjefe's Avatar
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    That Ol' Yeller didn't really die, it was just a movie. That film ruined me for like a month after I first saw it.

    Censorship for the masses is a bad idea. What I choose to censor for the sake of my child is my right as a parent. There are things that she's been exposed to that would make some people recoil in horror (she's 2 and the Simpsons keeps her quiet for 30 minutes, sue me). And there are things that I shelter her from that would have some scratching their heads (Spongebob & Barney).

    Censorship should begin and end with the adult individual.

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  16. Dawn of War II Senior Member  #16
    My Knob has 0HP! Vintage's Avatar
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    My personal opinion on censors is that censors cause you to think of something much worse in its place. For example, if I see ****, I automatically think fuck, shit, etc. Instead of seeing one curse word my brain flashes many more. This goes with about everything. If I see censored breasts on tv my brain knows what breasts look like, it just fills in the blank. I don't really see a point to censoring, but I don't have children and I respect a parents decision to want to protect their children from certain things.
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  17. #17
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    I believe that most of the time when pepole want to censor things they simply don't like it. Kind of like Huckleberry Finn, which actually got banned from a public library for being racist. I am surprised that the "protect the children!" groups haven't attacked GTAIV more, I would of expected a much larger response.

  18. #18
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    The problem with foul language is that one can be 'convinced' into being harmed, especially children. If you have a culture where people perceive something to be harmful or negative and they react accordingly to it, then those responses are adopted by impressionable individuals. There may be nothing intrinsically destructive regarding the thing or idea, but unfortunately real harm can be socially fabricated. It's virtual, you largely make it what it is. The basic building blocks and foundation are naturally available, but it's you who arranges them. A child lacks adequate skill to form a healthy interpretation of something in spite of an unhealthy one being broadcast throughout it's environment.

    Protecting children from bad language has more to do with protecting them from your attitudes and your feelings or the groups, to prevent the shock of that experience, than anything 'material' about them such as the sound itself.

    If you can instill a healthy interpretation of the language that can resist everyone elses, then I don't think you need to protect them from 'bad' language at all.

  19. #19
    I keep hearing "aren't mature enough to understand" whats not to understand ?
    Have you ever talked to a young kid? I really can't believe anyone would believe children can deal with or understand what someone with a signification level of maturity would be capable of dealing with.

    Show a eight year old aliens and see what happens they'll freak out and be looking for them under there beds for the next year. My mum was too afraid to watch horror movies on her own, so she let me a little kid watch them with her.

    I loved them! ... Untill now I can only really understand how they effected me, I went about in leather with a fake gun and dark shades when I was a little kid for a good few weeks after watching terminator.. I'm just not sure if that's healthy or not.

    Censoring Breasts, Penises etc which aren't doing anything sexual is silly as it's just the human body. Now onto the subject of sex on tv/inernet is a difficult one, there's nothing really wrong or dirty about it but it still needs to be kept away from very young kids plainly because it stops mummy and daddy from being asked some really uncomfortable questions.

    i.e " Why was that man doing that to the women?" or " why is that man doing that to another man?"

    It's still a difficult subject, I'm all for Age ratings on things as I believe they're more of a guidance marker than anything and some kids really can't handle that sort of thing. But in the case of manhunt 2 being banned in england I'm sickened by it, How could they ban something just because it's "violent"? Kids shouldn't be buying it, it's an adult game for adults - No one who could of been offended by it would of bought it in the first place.
    Last edited by NoneSuch; 11th Jun 08 at 2:16 PM.

  20. #20
    I went about in leather with a fake gun and dark shades when I was a little kid for a good few weeks after watching terminator.. I'm just not sure if that's healthy or not.
    Why is that less healthy than wearing batman underoos or a bob the builder outfit? Kids play make believe. It's their job, more or less, to pretend things and see what they like and what fits and what doesn't. They do that with everything they see, or at least everything that strikes them as "cool" at the time.

    I'm not sure why people nowadays get uptight about kids playing war or terminator or anything else... It used to be considered normal O.o
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  21. #21
    Member sang's Avatar
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    NoneSuch i agree that if a eight year old had seen aliens they would be behind a sofa holding a gun. Let them see another one this time holding only the gun they see yet another thay are fine. what im trying to say is that if children were to face horror than they would be alot less paniky.

  22. #22
    I dunno. I saw Alien (Note: Alien, not Aliens. The scarier one) when I was about 8 and loved it. I mean, I jumped and squealed and all, but that's why it was awesome.

  23. #23
    Forum punned-it Retroboy's Avatar
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    what im trying to say is that if children were to face horror than they would be alot less paniky.
    Completely disagree from a small-child persective. "Hey, kids. Thanks for watching Hannibal with me. Was kind of fun watching the nice man slice people apart and make them eat their own brains. I wonder if any of our neighbours are like that... oh, anyways, it's past your bedtime. Night night!"
    -----------------------------------------
    Small children are still developing their world concept, understanding how things fit together and what separates acceptable behaviour from unacceptable actions, and this becomes their basis for decision-making later in life. They aren't equipped with a solid set of emotional and perceptual controls and references that can govern and frame how they understand and react to things, and believe that the Easter Bunny and monsters under the bed are just as real as the bed itself. They are simply not capable of understanding the ridiculous violent hyperbole of the Saw movies, for example.

    If you start routinely exposing them to a lot of stuff that indicates the world is a horrible, brutal, dangerous and scary place, you end up with a struggle against maladjustment. Noting that there are always exceptions, in the same way you'll generally get a happier youth if they're raised in a loving and supporting environment, you'll get a more socially capable youth if they're presented with a good cross-section of what constitutes the real world at times when it is relevant to them. This includes either censoring to keep the complex, sexual and asocial things that they really can't biologically or mentally understand away from them until their maturity and vision of the world is solid enough to be able to work with it, or gentle education to help them comprehend that they're not ready for certain things yet. And the latter is a LOT tougher than the former on a general social level because individual kids and what reaches them are different.

    To see what I mean, just have your four year old shout "Fuck!" in a grocery store because they're exposed to that word every day at home, or have your thirteen-year-old girl come home pregnant because they were so exposed to cinematic sex without a counterbalancing or educational perspective that they wanted to try it. (P.S. thankfully, neither has happened to me or my family, but I've seen both.)

    That being said, there is no clear and single age when this awareness and comfort opens the doors to a child being able to work with such concepts. But there's some obvious things that should apply, such as not letting your five year old roleplay a brutal assassin alone and for hours on end in an extremely immersive gaming world.

    -- Retro, parent
    Last edited by Retroboy; 12th Jun 08 at 1:03 AM.

  24. #24
    i stumbled upon
    chucky when i was young

    still afraid of porcelain dolls to this day, its dumb its irrational but i still am

    anyway as regards to censoring things i can agree because a childs mind is not developed enough to process certain things yet

  25. #25
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    Children don't understand death either... and aren't really capable of empathy. Which is why violence has to be censored, even pretend violence.

    I can't point to a study or anything, but I have always found the social expectations of boys vs girls to be interesting in this context. Girls aren't expected to deal with violence, and arn't greatly exposed to it in their popular entertainment. But boys are. My Little Pony vs G.I. Joe. And it's young boys that seem to engage in pointless violence against small animals and insects, and it's male psychopaths that seem to be a problem. That doesn't just happen, I simply do not think it is the natural order of things or any such malarkey.
    Last edited by TheDeadlyShoe; 12th Jun 08 at 1:04 AM.
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    Just so I'm clear here, are we discussing parental responsibilities towards their own children or societal level censorship of 'teh evils' ?

    The OP strikes me as refering to widescale censorship but many posters (specially retro dad ) are talking about the responsibilities of parenthood.

    yes you probably shouldn't let your 7 Y.O kids watch "Backpacker snuff film 4:chainsaws and skullfucking" but that is a long way from actually censoring the content of said film or banning it.

    You also shouldnt let your child out of your sight in New York...ever because there are pedophiles lining every street in parker cars waiting to grab kids and you're Americas worst mom if you do.

  27. #27
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    It's both, since unless you isolate your kids in a cabin in the woods for 15 years they are going to be exposed to societal expectations and to a certain amount of content you don't control. So parents demand that the government and corporations maintain a lowest-common-denominator set of standards.

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    That is what the age restriction system and watershed rules are for, not what I would think of as censorship. Though a fair number of parents seem to carry on buying and renting that stuff their kids anyways, I dont disagree that society should do something to help parents filter their kids input (which we do) but we shouldn't be doing the job for them period.

    Study results seem to vary but it looks like there is a %10-15 difference between the number male psychopaths and female ones.

    If you want to make a connection between child play and adult psychopathy go right ahead but something beyond "I dont want to believe that it occurs naturally" seems so far below your usual standards that I got whiplash re-reading your post

  29. #29
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    I'm saying that I don't believe that it is happenstance or the 'natural order of things' that there is such a wide differential between the genders in terms of psychopathy (which is apparently now Anti-Social Personality Disorder) and violence. You know, "boys will be boys", that sort of thing. I think it has a cause and that exposure to violence and certain gender roles in formative years is a prime candidate.
    Last edited by TheDeadlyShoe; 12th Jun 08 at 1:50 AM.

  30. #30
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    im pretty much in the same corner as Retro here.

    A child is VERY impressionable. What they see and here is what they can end up thinking is the norm. A child who plays GTA is proberbly not going to end up going on a killing spree. However. He/she may very well find it exceptable to act in a similar fashion with language and actions and attitudes.

    2 examples i can think of off the top of my head. A probgramme in england called "child of our time" (i think) Its a mini series once a year that follow about 10 children since birth on 2000. The last one i watched was pretty amazing. It quizes them on what they like and dont like and how they feel about thinkgs (such as fat people and thin people) I mean 8 year old girls who were exposed to TV about the fasion indestry and the like aspired to basically be size 0. The kid doesnt watch the news to hear the other side of the argument on how bad it is on the news. They also believed that being fat is bad because fat people are horrible nasty people????? They dont have a clue about the health issues they just think fat people are not nice people. It showed how some kids felt and showed what there parents do. Basically the parents who had kids that they would do activities with and basically be a kid were healthy and happy and had a good outlook on life. The ones who jsut let there kid watch hours of tv and didnt really sensor what they saw where really going a bit down hill. Lacking in social skills and generally a lot unhappier and unwilling to be friends.

    The other thing is something that happened quite a few years ago. Basically a group of kids were playing power rangers and one of them got killed (happened a long time ago so memory is a bit sketchy) Now by this im just try to show that kids love to imitate there favourite shows but often dont know the conciquesces of what they are doing. They think they are playign a game and are unaware of the effect of what they can do is having. I very much doubt a 6 year old really understands racism but if he/she had a racist parent they may pick up these habbits and act on them with out understanding why.

    I think censorship for kids (or anyone not concidered an adult) is in place for a reason and i have no qualms with it. Sensorshio on adults is different altogether but il save that for a different topic seeing as this is concentrating on the kids.

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    You can easily grow up too fast and be a pretentious grump by the time you're 25, and those sort of people aren't exactly enviable.
    Er, that would pretty much sum me up then Capa...

    I suspect that on general the population would be split on this issue between children, who don't think things should be censored, and parents, who do.

    Probably in all truth we don't need to censor things as much as we do, but as parents you have a set of natural instincts which are hard to ignore. You've also a lot more awareness of the dangers posed by the world and want your child to be ready to cope with things before they are exposed to them.

    Frankly some censorship is needed in some cases, this forum would struggle to run so well without it. How much is always going to be a bone of contention between those doing the censoring and those being censored.

    For the record I've two kids and if they ask me about sex I'll happily tell them, but that's not the same as showing them a porn movie. Equally if they ask about violence I'll do my best to explain, maybe even take them to martial arts classes. But I'd not take them into town on a Friday night and pick a fight so as they can get involved. That to me is the difference between sensible censorship for their own good and simply keeping them ignorant.
    Happiness is a sure sign of immaturity.

  32. #32
    Member sang's Avatar
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    I think now we should move up to teens. I feel that teens understand the world more than preteens. I feel at this point all doors should be let open for them. At this age they can make responsible decisions and know the out come. I think that a boy of 13 wants to see a 18 film then we should let him see it as he knows whats he is getting into.

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    i think at 18 plus censorship should end. non of this 21 and over thing for certain places. 13-18 is a grey area. Its a time when people are starting to full mature. Its different for different people when this happens therefore no censorship on 13 year olds would be fine in some cases and not in others.

    Thats my stand on it anyway. Films shouldnt be band etc etc. If its something no one would watch then no one will watch it. Unless some sorta of hypofilm came out that actually COULD make adults run around and do harm to people then to me its just silly. How can you deam a film to violent for a fully grown adult to watch?

  34. #34
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    I think that a boy of 13 wants to see a 18 film then we should let him see it as he knows whats he is getting into.
    that depends on the person. it depends on the majurity of the specific person. it varies from person to person. by the age of 18, it's assumed that all people know how to make their own decisions.

    i think at 18 plus censorship should end. non of this 21 and over thing for certain places.
    i completely agree with that. 21 + is retarded.
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  35. #35
    I'm super cerial Energizer Bunny's Avatar
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    I think that a boy of 13 wants to see a 18 film then we should let him see it as he knows whats he is getting into.
    What's the difference between a 13 year old and a twelve year old? Why make the distinction there? I'm struggling to make out what logic or rationale you're using.

  36. #36
    Member sang's Avatar
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    I was not saying 13 we should start i was only using that age as a example.

  37. #37
    I'm super cerial Energizer Bunny's Avatar
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    I think that's the crux of the problem - where does one draw the line? This is as far as the debate got in the last thread, simply because there is no obvious answer, other than that it varies from person to person.

  38. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by tyrion
    Er, that would pretty much sum me up then Capa...
    Oops, sorry. I'm sure you're fine.

  39. #39
    Disciple of Khaine darkelf's Avatar
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    Energizer, in the end, there is no "correct" age to draw the line. It's all dependent on the person in question. So any line we draw will be blurry at best as there will always be exceptions both ways.


    As a small aside, I watched the original Predator movie at around 3-4, and it hasn't harmed me one bit, neither did seeing Jurassic Park at 5.
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  40. #40
    I'm super cerial Energizer Bunny's Avatar
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    Energizer, in the end, there is no "correct" age to draw the line. It's all dependent on the person in question. So any line we draw will be blurry at best as there will always be exceptions both ways.
    Sure - isn't that pretty much exactly what I said?

  41. #41
    Disciple of Khaine darkelf's Avatar
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    Doh! That's what I get from skimming the thread

  42. #42
    How about this to be fair. Any words can be offensive, so lets censor all words. Even the word "America" Offends some people. So let's stop communicating all together.

    Sex takes the innocent out of children, hurts their innocent eyes. By having them ignorant of sex matters. The less they can learn to control themselves. When they have the "Urge", they have no rational thought process. On top of that increase's the rate of spreading STD's. Kinda funny that we have alot young pregnant women. But yet creates our existence. So let's stop having sex all together, and not continue of the existence of humanity.

    People who are against anything that has to do with violence. Well part of human nature is violent. It's funny that I do recall violence in the revolution war. Which created the existence of America.

    So instead of using the military, police to protect our way of life. Let's just have clowns to patrol the streets. Paint all houses, pink, yellow, peaceful gay colors to make us all happy inside.

    About "Don't Drink, and Drive" Campaign. It's funny they spend millions promoting such a thing, but yet they don't go straight to the source. Let's make it illegal again
    What's even more funny. Marijuana is illegal, and usually just makes people mellow out. But cigarettes, and beer kills millions of Americans per year, and that's legal.

    Looking back, humanity stupidity is far greater than we can imagine.

  43. #43
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    It's funny that I do recall violence in the revolution war.
    Certainly is, makes you older than the usual demographic on here at least

    Seriously there is a very difficult balance and frankly no one's ever going to get it right because there isn't a right answer, only a best guess in each case. Do we need to censor games like GTA for the majority of teens? Possibly, possibly not. Do we need to censor it from the majority of pre teens? Yes certainly. The key word there is majority. there will be some pre teens who can fully contextualise and understand what they are seeing, but not many. Equally there will be some adults who cannot, but hopefully not many. You cannot make laws that cater for individual differences here, merely the modal scenario.

  44. #44
    Member Sangius's Avatar
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    Paint all houses, pink, yellow, peaceful gay colors to make us all happy inside.
    i find it offencive that you call yellow a gay color but thats besides the point

    everything else in your post(besides making drinking beer illigal i hope you were being sarcastic) was 100% right

    why should we keep oure kids ignorant of human nature?
    jay and silent bob strikes back:
    See, here's the pulse. And this is your finger, far away from the pulse, jammed straight up your ass. Say, would you like a chocolate covered pretzel?

  45. #45
    because 'gay' means happy, sangius?

    yes, it's different for everyone. however, to me, it's better to let people make their own decisions too early then to shield them for too long, as the earlier people learn things, the better. i personally read 1984 first when i was ten, and grew up watching movies like full metal jacket, we were soldiers, and enemy at the gates (strangely, i RAGE'd when i first saw enemy at the gates ). maybe it's just me, but the earlier children are exposed to the real world, the better. obviously, there's a hard and fast limit, but that limit is not (as some people believe) 18. really, how many virgins do you know who are 18? how many people who have never gotten into a serious fight, i.e. blood and broken stuff, before 18 do you know? how many people do you know who have never drank alcohol before 18? really, people don't suddenly get issued 'adult' brains at 18!

  46. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Sangius

    why should we keep oure kids ignorant of human nature?
    You make it sound like kids never grow up and get to learn these things at a normal pace, LIKE THE REST OF US. It's a matter of right time, right place. You don't need to forcefeed kids "important issues" that they're incapable of comprehending on any level other than one that scares the fuck out of them and ruins their childhood, because they can quite happily learn these things when they're relevant. Sex and violence is NOT relevant when they don't even have a reproductive system or the capability to fight for anything.

    *Gay hasn't meant happy since the 1940's, firestorm, what are you talking about? Have you ever heard anyone in this day and age say "I'm feeling rather gay" while tap dancing around their girlfriend?

  47. #47
    no, we shouldn't forcefeed them, but if they want to see it of their own accord, it's our responsibility to show it to them in a controlled environment with proper input so they get a realistic perspective on it.

    no, what are you talking about? it may not have been used in popular culture, but the fact remains that 'happy' is one of its definitions. or have we gone into 1984 with the whole big brother thing and the single rigid meaning per word for newspeak?

  48. #48
    Nobody is enforcing the new use of the word gay, it has just evolved that way. The fact of the matter is, people do *not* use it by its old definition anymore except for humours sake. Queer is exactly the same, you just don't hear people say "well that's queer" unless they mean..well..gay.

  49. #49
    Atmospheric Entry Elephant The5thElephant's Avatar
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    firestorm - A word's definition does not matter, what matters is the meaning others receive from it. Thus why it is necessary to define ones' terms before having an important discussion.

  50. #50
    pardon? a word's definition IS the meaning others receive from it. it's the word's meaning.

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