[SS 1.0] Barracuda

[Mosh4Life]

Theres ALOT of talk of the "imbacuda" as its affectionately known
Yet no weve had no thread to address this

The main beef is its insane DPS in its missile pods
So suggestions =]

I propose the missile pods have equal reload times of 2.5 seconds
DPS reduced from missile pods vehicle damage and redistributed into the Ion Cannon's infantry and vehicle damage
Burst cannon slight buff as they do sweet FA =]

This means its a general all round unit
That no longer rapes vehicals
And now does a half desent lump to infantry
=]

Mosh4Life =]

[Gore 'n' Guts]

IMBArracuda, actually.

Anyway, this proposal is redundant; the Barracuda is, primarily, bugged. According to Maktaka (source: his Bugfix Mod's transcript), far too little damage is being assigned to the Ion Cannon, whereas the Missile Pods are dealing rather too much. This was, apparently, unintentional, and will hopefully be addressed next patch.

[Flagg]

I propose it be hardcapped at 2 planes for a start.

[Zany Reaper]

Yeah, having 5 cheap anti-tank flyers in a game to bust up yer army isn't exactly cool, especially seeing that the barracuda is infact slightly tougher thanmost other tau tanks.

A hard-cap of 2 or 3 would be better suited for this vehicle, whilst also reducing the support cap cost to 3. The support cap cost of 4 basically makes the current hard-cap irrelevant.

[Can Not]

I thought this was discussed ages ago?

[Mosh4Life]

I searched the forums and came up with nout
=S
Sorry if it has but it aint on the search tool =]

Hardcap might work o_0
But its T2.5
Is that amount of damage viable then?

Also
Its already hardcapped at 5 ;]
Aha
Just read that on the wiki

Mosh4Life =]

[NeCoHo]

It's hard capped at 5 because of a 4 support cap. 5 x 4 = 20.

Maybe if there was a damage reduction to the thing, it wouldn't be so bad. I hate having to give up because I can't mass produce Sentinels when there are two imbacudas eating my mech and anything I can attempt to get out of it.

[Mosh4Life]

No
There is a hard cap ingame of 5
Dont argue with the wiki
=]
Pointless fact

Thats the point
Theyre TOO good at eating vehicles
Yet piss poor at infantry

Mosh4Life =]

[Kam!kazee]

All flyers are capped at 5, just for Tau it's useless, since it takes 4 pop.
I think it deals way too much damage for a Tier 2 vehicle.
It's damage against vehicle med/low rivals a full SM laspred, and is some DPS lower than a full CSM laspred (since their side cannons are stronger).
That's the missile pod only. Of course you could argue that the barracuda is a much weaker plattform, but laspreds are T4.
My suggestions: move it up to T3, or reduce it's veh damage.

[Maktaka]

Anyway, this proposal is redundant; the Barracuda is, primarily, bugged. According to Maktaka (source: his Bugfix Mod's transcript), far too little damage is being assigned to the Ion Cannon, whereas the Missile Pods are dealing rather too much. This was, apparently, unintentional, and will hopefully be addressed next patch.

It's not bugged, it was just implemented in this manner to simplify balancing the unit (it's easier to balance one gun than three). It's more of a consistency issue really: the Ion Cannon is supposed to be even more powerful than a Rail Gun, but it's little more than a light show right now.

The Barracuda is a glass cannon as implemented, and gets thrashed for cost against any other AV unit in a straight fight (although it fares reasonably well against Sentinels, but still loses). The problem is that the mobility of air units makes the "glass" part of that design too little of a liability for its overwhelming firepower. If the fight appears unfavorable to the Tau, the Barracudas fly away and find a new place to attack. They are never forced to engage the enemy even when they are on the attack, so their low health isn't the issue it is for other Tau units.

Lowering their health further could accentuate the glass cannon style, which would be more in keeping with the intentions Iron Lore had for the unit, but I don't think there's any way to make that work for an air unit in the current game's implementation of them. If its health drops any lower, the Barracuda will be so easy to destroy no amount of damage from its weaponry would make it worth getting. The glass cannon design just doesn't work, so the "cannon" portion of the design needs to be reduced, even if this ultimately means also boosting its health to compensate.

[ImmortalChaos]

The ion cannon is not supposed to be more powerful than the railgun
It is supposed to kick ass though, which is obviously fails to do. Hell I can't even tell when it's firing.

I'd change the 'cuda simply by reducing its missle pod damage by at least about 20-30%.

[Maktaka]

The ion cannon is not supposed to be more powerful than the railgun

Whoops, you're right. Forgot to double check my fluff. Still, one would expect a weapon that never makes an appearance on anything smaller than a Hammerhead to beat out a Fire Warrior's Pulse Rifle.

[Kam!kazee]

Well if you argue with fluff logic, then terminators should be better in melee than tacs.

[mlai]

Forget fluff. Post #10 states exactly why the Cuda is poorly designed.

5 las preds going anywhere on the map it pleases. The only thing that can stop them are AA flyers, and not every race have AA flyers.

[Hawillis]

The cuda is not imba.
it costs 4 pop so you can only have 2 of them.
This means your 60s build time 300/100 pit is a hefty squad tax.

Yes its cost effective. Point me to a tau vehicle that isnt. Tau vehicles are all just a little too good. Therefore its not worth changing the cuda - ill spam skyrays instead. A better change would be to make tau vehicle pit a little more expensive or something.

[_McGr3g_]

yeah it is imba.
pit stays whole game and costs u just 175/100(125 req is vehcap prices all races must pay). thats cheaper then other races tbh. of course that producing facility price should be included in unit cost. however it works for other races as well(crons excluded).
i could rephrase this for hell talons, 325/125 is a hefty squad tax for just 2 hell talons, since they cost 3 veh pop and u have 8 all u can do apart from them is rhino. does this mean they shouldnt be changed? c'mon. with this attitude i can see now how tau stayed one of the most imba races in ss after dc. dont change imba unit coz i will spam other imba unit.

[NeCoHo]

Spam. There you go. If it isn't one unit it is another.

Also, your accusation of "only two" is only valid until the tau build a command post, in which they can make more, and I have always found that it never takes long for a Tau to bump their pop and support cap up quickly.

60 seconds for a build time is quite good considering the tier you're getting it in.

[fs_xyz]

Either a hard cap or weapon damage being rearranged.

[MoschBoy]

you get 5 las preds in tier 2. not imba?

[Zany Reaper]

Before we consider making any old change to the Barracuda, we need to know which stage in the game that it's actually causing the most trouble.

I personally am not entirely sure when it's a problem. In Tier 2, you're effectively limited to 2 Barracudas due to its support cap requirement of 4. On the other hand, later on ingame, when you have more spare cap - you can whip out up to 5 of these things & base-whore people etc. Barracudas also deal the most AV damage for a flyer, and are certainly a formidable threat to almost any vehicle in whatever stage.

Ganging up large numbers of barracudas monotonously and fragging whatever other tanks get in the way is powerful, but is no real way of going up against say, an army of anti-aircraft vehicles. I'd imagine that 2 lascannon predators could take on 5 barracudas, though with some difficulty.

In short, I reckon that reducing the hard-cap to maybe 3, and possibly scale the damage with a research or tier upping would suit the barracuda fine, depending on which stage of the game at which it's most overpowered, that is.

[Hawillis]

No my only 2 is valid as this is where the majority of the Air units strikes occur. Why so many ppl are calling for a hardcap I cannot imagine.

My dont change imba unit else I will spam another imba unit is actually why if you listen to my changes the game will probably actually be more balanced as supposed to your altering one imba unit and pretty much nothing has happened.

Hell talons are off the imba scale with more hp and damage and less pop than the tau cuda. Plus chaos can spent more rec to get access to more talons (permanently as its a research not a destroyable building) whereas tau must spend 450/340 and wait 140s to get more cudas.
The thing is that flyers should never really be lost and this is what makes most of them cost effective. However you must take into account that sometimes its better to use a less cost effective vehicle but one that lets you sink more rec such as the harbringer. 2 cudas are a nice buy but can only influence the battle so much. My other options are getting vehicles that cost more but have a very large impact on the game. This is why the large pop cost of the cudas balances them because it stops them from becoming a game dominating effect. You can drive off the cudas with 1 AV squad. Let me see you do that to talon spam.

[Zany Reaper]

Tau's vehicle beacon is already too expensive for what vehicles it produces IMO. Infact, I'd go as far to say that it's the most expensive vehicle building in the entire game.

Skyrays aren't particularly imbalanced either, short of the missile barrage killing guardsmen en masse. The only Tau vehicles I'd consider to be imbalanced are Drone harbringers (with their spawn) and Barracudas, to a lesser extent.

A more severe hard-cap is still justified however. With that, you'd see more variety in Tau vehicle armies me thinks, infantry not becoming redundant of course.

[War-Reborn]

A plane thats useful, clearly somethings very wrong there

[fs_xyz]

If a Tau player choose kroot path, those barracudas become more problem to kill.
Your AV pretty much obliterated by FW+SS firepower.
Plus entire Tau army receive health boost.
For tau path... many Tau players will choose hammerhead instead more barracudas.

[Zany Reaper]

Does the barracuda get affected by the Improved metallurgy research?

If it does (Kau'yon), then you can get up to an extra 700 HP with the Ethereal out. That's nearly a 2000 HP tank-hunting flyer.

[Mosh4Life]

Acording to DoW wiki
No

Only the GG, Krootox, Harbringer && Skyray are affected by metalugy

But there again
That part my not be updated... =/

Am not on SS atm to test it either

Mosh4Life =]

[Zany Reaper]

Well that's wrong then. The code for the Improved metallurgy research has the Barracuda health buffs here, @ modifier 9:

----------------------------------------
-- File: 'research\tau_improved_metallurgy.lua'
-- Created by: AttributeEditor v2.0
-- Note: Do NOT edit by hand!
-- (c) 2001 Relic Entertainment Inc.

GameData = Inherit([[research\tau_research.nil]])
MetaData = InheritMeta([[research\tau_research.nil]])

GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_01"] = Reference([[modifiers\enable_armour_2.lua]])
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_01"]["application_type"] = Reference([[type_modifierapplicationtype\tp_mod_apply_to_entity_type.lua]])
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_01"]["target_type_name"] = "tau_fire_warrior"
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_02"] = Reference([[modifiers\health_maximum_modifier.lua]])
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_02"]["application_type"] = Reference([[type_modifierapplicationtype\tp_mod_apply_to_entity_type.lua]])
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_02"]["target_type_name"] = "tau_fire_warrior"
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_02"]["value"] = 1.10000
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_03"] = Reference([[modifiers\health_maximum_modifier.lua]])
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_03"]["application_type"] = Reference([[type_modifierapplicationtype\tp_mod_apply_to_entity_type.lua]])
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_03"]["target_type_name"] = "tau_drone_harbinger"
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_03"]["value"] = 1.35000
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_04"] = Reference([[modifiers\health_maximum_modifier.lua]])
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_04"]["application_type"] = Reference([[type_modifierapplicationtype\tp_mod_apply_to_entity_type.lua]])
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_04"]["target_type_name"] = "tau_drone_squad"
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_04"]["value"] = 1.35000
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_05"] = Reference([[modifiers\health_maximum_modifier.lua]])
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_05"]["application_type"] = Reference([[type_modifierapplicationtype\tp_mod_apply_to_entity_type.lua]])
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_05"]["target_type_name"] = "tau_greater_knarloc"
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_05"]["value"] = 1.35000
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_06"] = Reference([[modifiers\health_maximum_modifier.lua]])
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_06"]["application_type"] = Reference([[type_modifierapplicationtype\tp_mod_apply_to_entity_type.lua]])
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_06"]["target_type_name"] = "tau_krootox"
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_06"]["value"] = 1.35000
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_07"] = Reference([[modifiers\health_maximum_modifier.lua]])
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_07"]["application_type"] = Reference([[type_modifierapplicationtype\tp_mod_apply_to_entity_type.lua]])
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_07"]["target_type_name"] = "tau_skyray"
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_07"]["value"] = 1.35000
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_08"] = Reference([[modifiers\health_maximum_modifier.lua]])
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_08"]["application_type"] = Reference([[type_modifierapplicationtype\tp_mod_apply_to_entity_type.lua]])
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_08"]["target_type_name"] = "tau_commander"
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_08"]["usage_type"] = Reference([[type_modifierusagetype\tp_mod_usage_addition.lua]])
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_08"]["value"] = 200.00000
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_09"] = Reference([[modifiers\health_maximum_modifier.lua]])
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_09"]["application_type"] = Reference([[type_modifierapplicationtype\tp_mod_apply_to_entity_type.lua]])
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_09"]["target_type_name"] = "tau_barracuda"
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_09"]["value"] = 1.35000
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_11"] = Reference([[modifiers\health_maximum_modifier.lua]])
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_11"]["application_type"] = Reference([[type_modifierapplicationtype\tp_mod_apply_to_entity_type.lua]])
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_11"]["target_type_name"] = "tau_fire_warrior_clone"
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_11"]["value"] = 1.10000
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_12"] = Reference([[modifiers\health_maximum_modifier.lua]])
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_12"]["application_type"] = Reference([[type_modifierapplicationtype\tp_mod_apply_to_entity_type.lua]])
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_12"]["target_type_name"] = "tau_drone_harbinger_clone"
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_12"]["value"] = 1.35000
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_13"] = Reference([[modifiers\health_maximum_modifier.lua]])
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_13"]["application_type"] = Reference([[type_modifierapplicationtype\tp_mod_apply_to_entity_type.lua]])
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_13"]["target_type_name"] = "tau_drone_squad_clone"
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_13"]["value"] = 1.35000
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_14"] = Reference([[modifiers\health_maximum_modifier.lua]])
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_14"]["application_type"] = Reference([[type_modifierapplicationtype\tp_mod_apply_to_entity_type.lua]])
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_14"]["target_type_name"] = "tau_greater_knarloc_clone"
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_14"]["value"] = 1.35000
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_15"] = Reference([[modifiers\health_maximum_modifier.lua]])
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_15"]["application_type"] = Reference([[type_modifierapplicationtype\tp_mod_apply_to_entity_type.lua]])
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_15"]["target_type_name"] = "tau_krootox_clone"
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_15"]["value"] = 1.35000
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_16"] = Reference([[modifiers\health_maximum_modifier.lua]])
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_16"]["application_type"] = Reference([[type_modifierapplicationtype\tp_mod_apply_to_entity_type.lua]])
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_16"]["target_type_name"] = "tau_skyray_clone"
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_16"]["value"] = 1.35000
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_17"] = Reference([[modifiers\health_maximum_modifier.lua]])
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_17"]["application_type"] = Reference([[type_modifierapplicationtype\tp_mod_apply_to_entity_type.lua]])
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_17"]["target_type_name"] = "tau_commander_clone"
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_17"]["usage_type"] = Reference([[type_modifierusagetype\tp_mod_usage_addition.lua]])
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_17"]["value"] = 200.00000
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_18"] = Reference([[modifiers\health_maximum_modifier.lua]])
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_18"]["application_type"] = Reference([[type_modifierapplicationtype\tp_mod_apply_to_entity_type.lua]])
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_18"]["target_type_name"] = "tau_barracuda_clone"
GameData["modifiers"]["modifier_18"]["value"] = 1.35000
GameData["requirements"]["required_1"] = Reference([[requirements\required_structure.lua]])
GameData["requirements"]["required_1"]["is_display_requirement"] = true
GameData["requirements"]["required_1"]["structure_name"] = "ebps\\races\\tau\\structures\\tau_research_building.lua"
GameData["requirements"]["required_10"] = Reference([[requirements\required_structure.lua]])
GameData["requirements"]["required_10"]["structure_name"] = "ebps\\races\\tau\\structures\\tau_shrine_of_kauyon.lua"
GameData["time_cost"]["cost"]["power"] = 150.00000
GameData["time_cost"]["cost"]["requisition"] = 150.00000
GameData["time_cost"]["time_seconds"] = 25.00000
GameData["ui_hotkey_name"] = "tau_improved_metallurgy"
GameData["ui_index_hint"] = 3.00000
GameData["ui_info"]["help_text_list"]["text_01"] = "$665801"
GameData["ui_info"]["help_text_list"]["text_02"] = "$4550025"
GameData["ui_info"]["icon_name"] = "tau_icons/tau_advanced_metallurgy_icon"
GameData["ui_info"]["screen_name_id"] = "$665800"


MetaData["$METADATATAG"] = {desc = [[]], type = 7, category = [[]], dispval = [[]], isLocked = false, rangeStart = 665800, rangeEnd = 665849, }
MetaData["$METACOLOURTAG"] = 
{

}

[Maktaka]

Er, then why didn't you update it? Updated now anyways.

[Mosh4Life]

Because I dont know how much the barracuda gets buffed
If I knew
I would
Sorry >_>

Mosh4Life =]

[the Purebred]

The cuda i fine i mean damn it cost 4 cap nofe said. Its not even that hard to kill there is nothing and i mean nothing wrong with the cuda. Udig

[Mosh4Life]

No
I dont "dig"

You had a cuda harras your gen farm
It obliterates building_low armour
Hence it needs towning down

ANd its T2.5
Thats a bit early for that sort of firepower =/

Mosh4Life =]

[the Purebred]

lol we just cant have a good flying unit wow so sad

[bman3k]

The problem is that it is too good.

[ImmortalChaos]

178 dps to vehicle_med. Say again there isnt anything wrong with it? I'd like another laugh.

[TheMiracul]

make ti t3 then

[Hawillis]

There is nothing wrong with the cuda.
Big dps, no hp.
Shoot back with something. eg. sentinal. You know that rly crappy AV that no one uses? Yeah beats the cuda.

[phoenixzs]

There is nothing wrong with the cuda.
Big dps, no hp.
Shoot back with something. eg. sentinal. You know that rly crappy AV that no one uses? Yeah beats the cuda.

Yeah expect that Sentinel is a bit "immobile" compared to barracuda.No one is going to let a sentinel shoot the barracuda down standing there.Even if there are sentinels Barracuda is also anti-vehichle which cuts the effectiveness of sentinel.

i didnt do the calculation but 2 barracudas could probably take 2 sentinels with a little help.

[MaddoxX]

Completely yeah.

[Hawillis]

The sentinal is hardly a slow vehicle and has useful decapping properties as well.
I chose it as an example as sentinels are rarely used as they are poor (not seen one used in SS to date). But it was just an example. Theory crafting has no place rly but even so, 2 cudas would lose even harder to 2 sents. This now leaves the IG player pop to play with but none for the tau.

[PathFinder]

Cuda's range is not that great, meaning it must get pretty personal to its target while attacking. any long range AV would make the attack impossiable to carry out unless u are willing to sacc the cuda. if he runs, u effectively "killed" it for the duration of the fight. all u need is to have some AV to ward off the cudas. and thats not impossiable to achive for virtueally all races.

[ImmortalChaos]

About cuda vs sent:

Cuda has 46 move speed.
Sent has 32 move speed.

Cuda has 40 sight range, 30 weapon range.
Sent has 30 sight range, 35 weapon range.

Cuda has 1250 HP.
Sent has 1450 HP.

Cuda does 222 DPS to vehicle_low.
Sent does 128 DPS to vehicle_air.

'Cuda pwns sent tbh. Sent might win if it gets the first shot or 2 without return fire, but it will need a spotter and a very unattanetive cuda for that.

[phoenixzs]

The sentinal is hardly a slow vehicle and has useful decapping properties as well.
I chose it as an example as sentinels are rarely used as they are poor (not seen one used in SS to date). But it was just an example. Theory crafting has no place rly but even so, 2 cudas would lose even harder to 2 sents. This now leaves the IG player pop to play with but none for the tau.

Rarely used?Am I playing another IG?Sure I do build HWTs lascannons but I trust my sentinels as a AV opinion so I dont see them rarely used.

[Kam!kazee]

AV vehicle vs cuda?
1. SS jump in
2. EMP nade
3. SS jump out
4. ????
5. Profit

[fuggles]

You can't compare A VS B by bringing in C.

[mlai]

Actually, you can. Because in a real game it's never just Sents vs Cudas. Which is exactly why it's so advantageous that Cudas can fly.

However, IG does have the Psyker's Curse as an equivalent. They even detect SS.

[fuggles]

Yes, but then it gets silly as the IG have a baneblade, the tau have 800 crisis suits etc etc. It's all massively hypothetical and unhelpful to the comparison, especially when that techpriest has just built a bunker to allow HWT's to appear under the 'cuda.

[MaddoxX]

If a las HWT appear then you just have to use your FW while the cuda retreat, and you still win.

[fuggles]

apart from no-one builds the las HWT and so it will probably have an autocannon and so on ad infinitum - see? This is silly.

Anyway - hasn't maktaka identified and fixed the problems with this?

[Gorudu]

Ok, the barracuda is way to fragile to nerf. I don't tell you this on fact, but rather personal experience. I was being attacked by a barracuda so i simply sent a single scourage squad of 6 (with a leader) equipped also with two dark lances ( i only had two because i like to keep them versatile in case i need anti infantry more so than vehicles). I don't remember if i had the leader weapon upgrade, but i do remember it died within two or three dark lance rounds. The truth is, these things don't have much more range than any AV squad, so really all you have to do is get a squad or two on them, and they will die in seconds.

[Zany Reaper]

The general idea is that the barracuda is supposed to be somewhat vulnerable to anti-vehicle infantry units however. Such units are somewhat hard to use for Imperial guard, so I don't really think that the barracuda is really a problem in guard's case, but rather the sheer annoyance of the HWT, which is part of the reason why it should either be allowed to upgrade whilst not entrenched, or start with the lascannon. That's for another thread though.