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Backing Up vs. Turning Around

  1. #1
    Zath
    Guest

    Backing Up vs. Turning Around

    One of the basic micro management techniques in RTS games has been the cycling of front line units in order to distribute incoming damage evenly. This is normally a difficult task that requires lots of player attention, and it can be further hindered by units not returning fire when a movement command is given. Although docking damaged strike craft and corvettes squadrons is now a common practice in HW2, I did not think larger ships were capable of this type of maneuver. To my surprise, I have discovered the frigates and capital ships do act intelligently in these situations as well, and I was wondering if there is more to be explored in this area.

    What I am refering to is the fact that when you order a slow turning ship to withdraw from battle, they will sometimes opt to backup directly instead of turning around, all the while facing your opponents and maintaining fire upon them. The prerequisite for this type of maneuver seems to be that some enemy ships must remain in weapons range as you backup, and the normally green/yellow movement disk will turn red to reflect this.

    A maneuver like this will naturally have a big impact on battle. Even a frigate sized ship will easily save ~5 seconds of time by not executing a full 180 turn, and you can also withdraw ships with small firing arcs without sacrificing their damage output in battle (e.g. Ion Cannon Frigates). Furthermore, you can choose to withdraw ships at an angel away from your opponents, thereby forcing them to expose their flanks as you encircle them. This is most efficient when you place high value ships in the center of a line formation. As the enemy strike group approaches, just order your ships to retreat into a semi-circle, with the high value ships drawing them into a trap (e.g. marine frigates).

    The much maligned frigates are exceptionally useful here since they can backup faster than a Destroyer or Battle Cruiser can move forward. If your opponent is not careful, you can peel off his escort ships and eliminate them outside the range of their Destroyers or Battle Cruisers. While this can be tricky to pull off against a human opponent, I've found that it works pretty well against the computer AI, even on expert levels. With a little practice I can win with less than 30 losses in a 1 vs. 1 match, of which most are sacrificial platforms, and this is without any rush at all.

    Are moving units harder to hit even if they are slow? This could be another added benefit if true. What I would really like to see is a forced movement command so I can backup my ships even when there are no enemies in range. This would be helpful in laying out formations just before battle, and maintaining them during battle, especially for ships with short range weapons that love turning around to moon your enemies (e.g. Flak Frigates).

  2. #2
    Chopper415
    Guest
    What you describe, the combat maneuvers within the red movement disc, is basically a command that tells the ship to move to where you want it while maintaining fire on a target for as long as possible. It's especially useful when DD's or frigates are attacking BC's, and you want to stay on just one side of it to avoid the fire from some of its main guns.

    I agree, a command to make ships reverse without turning even in normal flight would be very helpful.

  3. #3
    Mandorallen
    Guest
    Do they flash their lights and beep while executing this ?
    (Sorry just couldnt resist) . Guess its called advancing backwards.

  4. #4
    LazyChiken
    Guest
    Zath, as you didnt mention it. There is a command which makes you to be able to "back off while firing" always, not only sometimes. Default is ctrl + a, and its called "move while fire" or something similar. Its critical command for maintaining your cap ship fleet properly (note to self: check if this works with vettes too).

  5. #5
    Zath
    Guest
    LazyChiken:

    I had suspected that movement during battle defaults to attack move (i.e. Ctrl+A), but I wasn't quite sure about that one since documentation didn't seem very clear about it. Are these two commands in fact identical? I seem to be under the impression that units under attack move will often veer off course depending on their aggressiveness, and that can be undesirable if they get caught in front of a big cannon. Maybe this is just the behavior of strike craft and corvettes while frigates and capital ships will stay in line? I suppose we'll have to test it after all.

  6. #6
    Leto
    Guest
    em, against a hard computer i lost a total of 2 ships and destroyed 98... computer players are easy tho

  7. #7
    Chopper415
    Guest
    Ctrl-a? Vry handy, I'll test it out soon. It would be helpful on mission 12 too (which I still haven't bothered to complete) since my cap-ship fleet seems determined to rush to their deaths (and that of the MS) at the first sign of trouble. And turning them around twice to get them back and make them face front again takes forever.

  8. #8
    ilia1986
    Guest
    If you havent noticed, the reflexes of the pilots in HW2 are much slower than in previous games. Also accordint to the book, u should never retreat ur whole force in the middle of combat. retreat the most damaged ones and keep fighting providing them cover. If possible avoid fleet splitting (when ur fleet is in a dozen diffrent far away places, during combat).

  9. #9
    Chopper415
    Guest
    The point about not retreating your whole force at once is valid. However, fleet segmentation is key to complex, "unfathomable" tactics. Focus fire is one thing, but but not the only factor in the equation. Read your Sun Tzu

  10. #10
    Zath
    Guest
    One issue I would like to bring up is the performance of Ion Cannon Frigates. As you can see from the other threads in this forum, they aren't exactly winning any popularity contests. I had similar misgivings about the ICF until I learned how to constantly back them up in battle and exploit their relatively long range weapons. This simple manuever will allow ICFs to easily dispatch Torpedo and Heavy Missile Frigates of equal or larger numbers, regardless of upgrades.

    Take the simulated battle results on the SITH website for example. The matchup between ICFs and HVMs would suggest that ICFs are utterly useless, yet my experience is completely to the contrary. Not only do ICFs obliterate HVMs, they can do so with minimal if any losses at all. I don't even have to exploit the flank damage bonus with fancy moves. Just a straight back up will do nicely and the HVMs will never get in range with any significant firepower left.

    The story with TFs is similar too. The TF does have long range cluster torpedoes, but those are relatively harmless and it is only the shorter ranged improved torpedoes that actually pose a threat. As long as you maintain your ICFs between these two ranges, you can minimize incoming damage while still projecting the full firepower of your ships onto the TFs.

    There seems to be a growing consensus among the community that ICFs are underpowered and should receive some upgrades in the next patch. I sincerely hope the game designers at Relic will examine this issue from all perspectives and refrain from doing so at this point in time. The ICF is a formidable weapon in the right hands, but it has yet to be deployed in a manner that complements its strength (range) and minimizes its weakness (small firing arc). Adjustments to game balance in this area should probably be delayed a bit until the full repertoire of battle tactics has been explored.

    p.s. I don't want to sound contemptuous, but I think "Expert" AI is just a wee bit tougher than "Hard" AI, Leto, and it can often be difficult to keep up with the constant assaults without pausing the game

    Edit: Typo
    Last edited by Zath; 24th Oct 03 at 10:55 PM.

  11. #11
    Relic Lifting Services ltd. Mikk's Avatar
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    Interesting point about the ICF Zath

    P.S. The idea of the expert AI is that they cheat by getting more resources per each dropoff

  12. #12
    Zath
    Guest
    I am aware of the resource bonus, but I also suspect the expert AI may be getting a little more help than that. I have seen with my own eyes a Hiigaran mothership churn out two Carriers in quick succession. The second Carrier was literally coming out of its production bay before the first one had enough time to lay itself down horizontally. Either the AI knows how to pause production on multiple ships and release them simultaneously (which begs the question: why not just produce them already?), or it is in fact getting some kind of production bonus.

  13. #13
    Krogoth255
    Guest
    Well I think that ICF are just really support anti-captial ships they cannot stand alone against captial ships like the BC and DD. Even with some of Zath's tactics which seems to be proper use of the ICF against frigates. What doesn't help the ICF is the damm unit AI doesn't take advanage of the ICF's greater range then most other frigates and it likes to run into the heat of battle when unsupervised just asking to get owned.

  14. #14
    CECIL
    Guest
    I'd be interested to know if the Attack Move command makes your units NOT turn around even if not in battle. It could be used to great advantage even in non-combat situations. And I think for Capital ships the normal movement disk does default to attack-move in a battle. At least for Destroyers and above, if not frigates.

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