[SS 1.0] DE Warrior discussion

[Gorudu]

Here's the main deal here. DE warriors are use less against other infantry. They die too easy, and they have too short of range. The problem i have is that people kill my warriors too quickly for them to damage the enemy. I think they need at least one of the following changes to make them comparable to other races T1 units.

- They should switch the accuracy upgrade around with the armor and health upgrade so warriors at least have some fighting chance.

- They should give them an excellent FotM so that they are more of a chase down unit for mandrakes. This and a bit of a rnage increase to match enemies like SM or chaos.

- They should give them excellent moral beginning game so they don't get slaughtered by flamers from SoBs or SMs

- They should get a damage buff from having a commander in the squad, if they wanted to stress they are glass canons.

Now, I ordered these from most reasonable to least (imo) from top being reasonable, to bottom not. Please leave any suggestions you may have.

[Rotlung]

They have good damage and aren't suppose to fight a full squad of SMs in open combat, especially when they have heavy weapons. DE units don't work in isolation. I kind of agree on the range bit though.

Solution: Give them fleet of foot. Nah, I'm just kidding.

[Flagg]

DE Warriors are far from "useless" and make great T1 units imo. If you go for an early armoury and attatch a Hameonculus to a squad, that will extend their longevity. Torture Amp is a superb ability to use and will greatly help you chase down and kill those fleeing units. Sadly most of the DE inf. are fragile, especially Scourges, which makes caring for them all that more! Id love to see 2 slots on the raiders as well to help get those Warriors out of sticky situations. 1 space isn't enough, which stops me from buying them.

I do sympathise with the OP, as I find SM and Eldar exceptionally hard to beat.

[Rotlung]

As far as I am concerned, I get a Raider and pop my Warriors in as soon as they are available (the Raiders). Even when not in the Raider, use screaming jets to jump in, toss terrorfex grenades, charge in with mandrakes, hellions and Archon with Incubii.

While the Warriors shoot on. But I usually put them in Raiders as they'd be much easier to manage that way.

[EldarAspect]

I would like them to have better range.

[ReignInBlood]

I think warriors are good in T1 and T2. However, you do need to upgrade them ASAP to get some usefulness out of them. Same goes for mandrakes.

Although, I agree the cost in power and cap of raiders is rather ridiculous. Decrease the cap to two and the power to something more reasonable. This would extend the lives of mandrakes and warriors drastically. Definitely would make it easier to load them up for protection and greater mobility.

[ImmortalChaos]

Put the wraithbone armor in T1

Make raiders take 2 cap

Done.

[Gadianton]

Put the wraithbone armor in T1

Make raiders take 2 cap

Done.

Sounds great! I've found my games improving since I started using warriors+homonoculous(?) again...I'd been playing with more drakes and an earlier archon. I still get the archon, but after 2 warriors. They seem to damage buildings quite well too.
I would a love a reason to keep them late game though....so cheaper raiders pop wise would facilitate that.

[CyberFish]

Agree with IC. Nothing else to say, really. They're not terribly uP but the buff will help make DE more interesting and hopefully mean that warriors are a good tactic (as opposed to being blatently inferior to RJB spam). Also, 3 pop is way too much for a raider.

[tygereye]

I am not really for the wraith bone armor in T1, I fear that it would make T1 mandrakes a bit obsolet compared to buffed warriors. But I don't understand why wraithbone cost 100/50 when Daemonic touch that gives more life and also upgrade mandrakes DPS is only 75/25. I would say put them both at 75/25.

2 pop Raiders are a must have. Maybe that raiders could use a small power reduction too.

Concerning T1 I think that only making soulseeker ammunition raise the range of warriors by 3 to a 25 total is really needed.

"Out of Topic" : maybe that scourges would need a 10% health increase (not the sybarite though) so that they still stay competitive at AI in T2 after all these warriors buffs.

[ViS]

Do NOT buff them in T1.

Have any of you seen what a hard mass of Warriors can do on small maps?

[Packy]

As a DE player, I'm with Vis on this one. Warriors are pretty damned powerful if used right in T1. If a buff is needed, I'd say a slight increase in FOTM with soulseeker or a slight buff to wraithbone armour, but too much and you're just asking for trouble.

[mlai]

The most important thing is definitely to make the Raider-Warriors combo more viable. The 1st step of that is definitely to make the Raider 2 pop. 2nd step is to make the Raider cheaper - srsly it's useless as an offensive vehicle unless Warriors are loaded in them.

[ViS]

What would giving the Raider an anti infantry Disintegrator or Splinter Cannon upgrade do?

[Draich]

WHAT THE F0CK? Warriors + Screams cut through most infantry if done right, that running against a wall of Tacs or Fire Warriors isn't healthy for them, well, nobody likes that. DE can pick their fights, imho Flagg summed it allready up, three Warrior squads have an ugly damage output for a T1 unit.

[ViS]

T1 isn't the issue here. T2 and onwards is. As of now, Warriors effectively say "Buh-Bye" the moment anything with 30+ range hits the field.

[ReignInBlood]

What mlai said....

[God_Of_Scots]

tac mass vs warrior mass? warrior mass wins hands down. I tried a 4 tac build vs a 3 warrior build one time and I got swamped before i could even get a squad of 8 on the field. Thing is they come out faster then tacs and swarm easier due to their speed.

[Old Painless]

In T1 they are fine but as the game gets longer they start to really suffer at the hands of there HP - which doesn't really get high enough at all and there range, which is short and is improved by using the transport but one squad of enemy AV and your just in a horrible mess.

[ImmortalChaos]

Do NOT buff them in T1.

Have any of you seen what a hard mass of Warriors can do on small maps?

Have you seen what happens to warriors against ANYTHING that has 30+ range?

Warriors are an extremely situationaly useful unit, even in T1 when they make up for their low range and incredibly fragility with pure speed and DPS, they still get pwned by plenty of things in any matchup.

The wraithbone armor isnt even a true buff in T1; it's simply a measure to actually keep them alive untill you can get raiders. As it currently is, it arrives so late that it doesnt help at all, in fact you'd probably get it just in time to be able tp put the warirors in a raider and make it useless.

[Draich]

Imho thats part of the design, they just cant attack a mob wielding Heavy Bolters and get blown to bits if they get caught.

[ReignInBlood]

Wraithbone armor does make sense in T1 to some extent. There is such a small window of usefulness to warriors, considering scourges become available and wyches seconds later in T2. I mean who is going to build warriors once the wyche arena is up? However, a T1 armor upgrade and a T2 foundry build would be a decent alternative. Maybe not the best but a good one. Personally, I cannot stand the T1 foundry build because I have to have the Archon. The dude is just to cool.

“Death is my meat. Terror my wine.”

2 cap raiders is a no brainer, obviously.

[steel_tomatoes]

The wraithbone armor isnt even a true buff in T1; it's simply a measure to actually keep them alive untill you can get raiders. As it currently is, it arrives so late that it doesnt help at all, in fact you'd probably get it just in time to be able tp put the warirors in a raider and make it useless.

I was about to say this too. I never bother with the armor upgrade because I just put them in Raiders and once the Raider is lost lol cya later don't care about you anymore, as I now have scourges instead.

Perhaps the Wraithbone could be moved to T1 but it might need to be tweaked a little (possibly nerfed slightly)? I'm not sure just how much of an effect it has because like I said I don't bother with it.

Oh an +1 to making Raiders 2 cap instead of 3. Dunno about the cost change...the combined Raider/Warrior is still a lot of dps from vehicle armor...

[ImmortalChaos]

It doesnt even need to be nerfed. Have you seen the number on it? It looks like a T1.5 research anyways.

[ViS]

Y'know... Looking at the research, a 50% boost looks a bit extreme for T1.5. Perhaps it might be wiser to split it into 2 75hp researches with the first costing 75/25 and the second costing 25/25.

[ReignInBlood]

Na, pretty much everyone else gets upgrades to health for their shooters in T1 (even nec warriors) with the armory and the like. Warriors need it most and they don't even get one.

Edit: IC usually knows what he's talking about.

[ViS]

Name one other unit in the game that gets a 50% boost to their (already manageable) health in T1.5.

[Geno]

Personally, I don't think HP is a problem at all - it's their range. Not only do they have no heavy weapons upgrades to go toe-to-toe with heavy bolters and FW, but their basic range makes it impossible for them to close in on long-range targets. Even Guardsmen with grenades will take out squads of DE Warriors before they even get to fire.

I know this is probably asking a bit much. I think it'd be nice if the DE warriors were left as they are now, but given the option of upgrading some of their weapons to the Scourges' splinter cannons (maybe with 30 range rather than 35). This would probably take out the usefulness of Scourge AI capabilities, but they still keep their usefulness for AV duty and harrassing enemy bases. Frankly though, a basic range increase to 25 with soulseeker would be nice enough.

[ReignInBlood]

125 is manageable? Why yes, as long as they are not getting shot at. Name one other unit in the game that needs a 50% boost to their health in T1.5?

[ViS]

You mean 250. And yes, 250 is very manageable for such ridiculously spammable, high damage units.

[D-coy]

Maybe give them FoF in tier 2. Alternative thought. That way they could compete if the player is good enough. Speed and damage is boosted, accuracy is decreased.

Maybe. Throwing ideas around.

Or boost everything but make the ability sap soul essence.

Cheers

[steel_tomatoes]

The problem is more that they get totally pasted in T2 due to their HP and short range (think versus heavy bolters). I don't think FoF would help much, but more to the point I'm downright terrified of the prospect of another race getting FoF!

I think we should work with the T1 wraithbone idea. How about making it require Soulseeker before it can be researched? That would slightly slow down how fast they can get the upgrade (and remember SM have a similar system in SS). But T2 is ridiculous I mean whether its 375HP or 250HP they still get utterly pasted under heavy bolter fire.

I also quite like the idea of splitting the research up (was the intention to make the 2nd research T2? In which case I still wouldn't get it haha but at least the T1 upgrade would be worth it).

[ViS]

You know, scratch all that. Wraithbone armour in T1 would make them broken to hell.

Make Raiders buildable from the HoB. Problem solved.

[Flagg]

While I agree that Warriors start to become a bit redundant as the game progresses, i like to keep at least one squad around for my Haemoculus. Tbh i'd like to see the option for wyches come in T2 when you get access to Scourges and not have to build yet another building just to have them.

[MoschBoy]

whyches too early in tier 2 would be a bit ott. warriors are currently very potent and useful tier 1 units; the problem with them is just that you either go full out warriors with archon for a tier 1/tier 1.5 win - with a massive rush and pressure from the start on - or you end up with a unit that is simply useless in tier 2. no matter how you look at it, once tier 2 is around, their low range and HP make the absolutely obsolete. not even raiders change something about it; currently you get a medium core vehicle based unit for a total of 3 vehicle and 2 infantry cap--> thats 5 total cap for medium tier 2 dmg. even if the raider was 2 pop, you STILL have a total of 4 cap for medium tier 2 dmg - which is too much.

uh, i almost forgot it: SM/CSM tier 1.5 is already >> warriors (flamers and HB, nades, snipers).

give them a tier 1.5 range upgrade and some additional cover bonus (or an ignore cover upgrade in tier 1.5); a glass cannon for early tier 2 with good hit and run dmg and nastyness in cover.

[MaddoxX]

Give them an ability that let them have a 15% chance to evade a ranged attack.

[ReignInBlood]

Oops my mistake. They start out with 250 hit points and when upgraded go to 375. I still don't see what the big deal is. Like what IC said it will increase their survivability a little not much else.

You have upgrades for mandrakes and warriors in T2. Why? In T2 I'm done with these units anyways for the most part. In T2 wouldn't you build Wyches and Scourges, and maybe throw some Hellions in the mix? Most all my starters are dead by this time anyways. They are not like Guardsmen or Space Marines who are your main force throughout the game. Upgrades in T1 would delay a T2 tech, which isn't all that bad.

[ViS]

You don't see what the big deal is? Imagine Warriors in T1.5 with Tac HP. Imagine FIVE SQUADS OF THEM.

Yes ladies, that's what I mean by a Warrior hard mass. Go check out what it does on Blood River. I dare you.

[steel_tomatoes]

Proposed T1.5 Warriors - 375HP infantry medium
T1.5 Space Marines - 436 infantry heavy medium

Just saying warrior + armour does not = SM tact. You might still have a point, if you can maybe elaborate on the blood river scenario. Btw once I got utterly smashed on this map doing a warrior + archon build versus a straight out tact mass.

Personally I wouldn't be opposed to nerfing the armour upgrade or splitting it up, with the 2nd upgrade in T2.

Also I understand that building Raiders from the HoB would encourage their use, but building vehicle armour from an infantry building just seems illogical. I can't think of any other race that does this (bar necrons). On the other hand I do get the feeling, when I get raiders, that I'm getting poor cost effectiveness (considering I have to build the DF while teching to t2). Bah I dunno maybe raiders should be cheaper after all, but they also have a good ability and you wouldn't want them spammable in DF builds.

Regarding the cap at cost 2 or even the current 3 I don't think its a big deal, chances are you are not building any other vehicles at this point, and you need 2 or 3 chambers anyway for your infantry.

[ViS]

Logic=/= balance

Consider the ridiculous damage Warriors do even without Soulseeker Ammo. Enough of those and it'll be like approaching a short range FW mass.

1 Drake, overwatch Warriors, rap everything your opponent has because they come out so fast. Cap with your first Warriors if you really want to, it doesn't matter.

[StoneRhino]

Warriors are an ok teir 1 harass unit not a main combat unit. They do good damage but at the cost of range. Personly I do not make infantry building till teir 2. Hellions are a better harass unit and a few RJB can slow a rush till you start popping out wyches or a talos.

If you have a few warrior squads survive till teir 2 then put them in a reaver and jump them into the back of your enemies base while you hit the front. I would not even upgrade them not even invis for the mandrakes.

You do not have to use your teir 1 units till the end of the game. DE are more like orks in this. Sluggas, shootas and then the bad ass units.

A warning though. I don't know if it works with warriors but if you jump 4+ reavers over the wall in KL and try to deploy them real fast you will "Sync Error" the game.

[Flagg]

Hmm, is it true that Raiders ARE supposed to have 2 slots like all other transport? That, this is just one of the many bugs plaguing SS? 62 bugs in total I heard. Seriously, having Raiders with 2 slots would greatly increase the longevity and use of DE warriors.

Raiders, screaming jets, deploy 2 warrior squads with Haemo, Torture amp, kill enemies, repeat.

[steel_tomatoes]

I'm pretty sure the 1 slot transport is intentional. There are only 6 mannable guns on the raider, if there were a second squad then he would be transport only and not shooting, which is a bit pointless when using Raider/Warrior combo as a fighting force. Although the tactic you mentioned does sound pretty good in theory. Problem is if just 1 squad isn't broken by the screaming jets then by that stage of the game it will mow down your Warriors in seconds.

I like having two Raiders each with a warrior squad on top, I get two uses of screaming jets and if one Raider gets shot up and the warriors subsequently pasted, then I still have my other warrior squad on the other Raider.

Also

A little tip - since only 6 warriors can shoot while on board the Raider, there is no need for the 7th member. Since Sybarites do the same dps as warriors when onboard the Raider, you should omit him due to his higher cost. That's not to say that the Sybarite isn't highly useful in T1, but if the squad takes casualties and you are reinforcing while getting your Raiders...don't bother rebuilding the Sybarite.

[mlai]

What makes you think the Sybarite has the same dps as the Warriors, while on the Raider??

[Angry Rhinp]

My thinking is to leave warriors as they are in teir 1, as they seem quite effective, and either move raider production to hall of blood and reduce cap to 2 OR leave it at the vehicle bay (what'chyacallit?) and change screaming jets from depleting moral to an AOE damage debuff for a few seconds.(If that is codeable). I prefer the second option as it helps raiders out in that scenario described above where the squad does not break from the jets and pastes the crew. It also helps DE out a bit vs moral immunes which warrior buids kinda suck at.

[ImmortalChaos]

What makes you think the Sybarite has the same dps as the Warriors, while on the Raider??

Splinter Rifle
...
This weapon is activated by Warriors units and Warrior Sybarites.

Also, ViS: What have you been smoking? Have you ever seen someone make 5 squads of warirors? Have you ever seen what happens to someone who makes 5 squads of warriors? Hell, even going the HoB in the first place is complete suicide against certain races. Wraithbone armor in T1.5 will not break warriors at all.

[Kungfu_is_Great]

no one has mentioned how the terrorflex nade reduces an opponents visual range by 90% which then turns the tables back towards the warriors.

[Maktaka]

To clarify on the Warrior Sybarite's weapon on the Raider, both of the Warrior Sybarite's weapons (Splinter "Pistol" and "Destructor") share the same raider_weapon_index value as the Warrior Splinter Rifle: 2. It would be nice if the Splinter Cannon upgrade caused it to activate a different weapon, but watchagonnado.

That visual range hit doesn't do that much, if anything. If any of your troops attack anything, they become visible for 5 seconds and can be shot back. It's really only useful against artillery-type weapons (e.g. Grenade Launchers) to increase their offset, but even then you have to hit EVERY enemy unit in the area. Even a single unit in the area can provide LOS to keep artillery at full effect.

The detection range hit is at least a bit useful though, but since the only Dark Eldar infiltrator is a melee unit, it's not as great as it one would like.

[Inst]

You could go for the Tau solution; after Tier 2 Tau FWs start to lag behind in damage and durability. They get defeated by enemy heavy ranged once enemy heavy ranged ends up in range; see the HBRhinoparty. To counter, Tau uses massed Shas'ui to butcher whatever gets within 25 range.

Applied to DE, Warriors would use massed Terrorfex grenades to break enemy squads; it doesn't matter if a Warrior squad is inferior in combat capability if the enemy squad is broken. Alternatively, you could make it so that Splinter Cannons would have improved morale damage past tier 2; this would help solve the problem with players building warrior squads for the sole purpose of equipping Terrorfex grenades.

[phoenixzs]

- They should give them excellent moral beginning game so they don't get slaughtered by flamers from SoBs or SMs

Why should they get a special treatment aganist morale damaging weapons;The main reason for other races is to get flamers is to get the upper hand by damaging morale.We could as well as give all squad leaders of the other race to actually detect the invisible mandrakes then.

Other than that I too want to see Warrior build more viable then the hellion build.But buffing warriors in that way is not fair for other races I think