[SS 1.0] DE Warrior discussion

[Old Painless]

Panda, if your going to try and shout down a long term forum member with slightly dodgy logic and he calls your bluff you have two choices:

1: Have a match against him/her and accept the outcome

2: Concede your point and be a little easier on him/her next time you disagree.

I have had a lot of matches with and against Immmortal Chaos and he plays well, understands the game and is a quality player overall. I learned from being his ally and you probably could too.

Playing a couple of matches would probably be quite fun. Sometimes we win and sometimes we lose, currently you are losing this argument by a country mile. The only way to save face would be to have a match and win, if your not willing to even TRY you really ought to tone down the reteric.

Personally i think DE Warriors versus Shoota Boyz would come down to the better use of the Mek and Archon, slugga use also being important.

The only point i would make is that warriors scale badly whereas shootas scale reasonably well as well as benefitting from Mob Based HP regen bonuses, morale immunity etc.

As IC says, the only way to know for sure is to lab it.

[mlai]

whereas shootas scale reasonably well as well as benefitting from Mob Based HP regen bonuses, morale immunity etc.

AFAIK, ork mob-based hp-regen bonus is still broken. It might as well not be there.

[PandaMine]

@Old Painless

Its not only me that disagrees with him, KotR also says that its unlikely that "ork will rape DE with shooter" as IC puts it.

The point of using Warriors is to finish the game in T1/T2 (in T2 you would get scourges to finish it off). You abuse the fact that Warriors don't scale but are hugely powerful in that stage of the game. Obviously shooters scale a lot better, but when you are playing a race like Tau/DE/Eldar the point is to finish off those races a lot sooner then T3/T4

Im not saying that IC is not a great player, but it seems he is saying this on the top of his head and hasn't actually versed a decent DE that wen't the HoB path with shootas

[ImmortalChaos]

Find the post where I said "Ork will rape DE with shooter."

I said that a competant ork will beat a HoB build.

A bike build, on the other hand, will have orks their ass on a platter and there's nothing they can do about it; DE >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ork, just with the right BO.

[White_Pointer]

The only point i would make is that warriors scale badly whereas shootas scale reasonably well as well as benefitting from Mob Based HP regen bonuses, morale immunity etc.

Shootas don't benefit from HP regen. The only mob bonuses that affect them are the morale ones. And given they only have a maximum squad size of 8, it doesn't affect them too much, either.

A competant ork can beat an HoB build that's for sure, but it's certainly not a walk in the park. It's still a bloody tough matchup regardless of the BO the DE chooses. DE has the upper hand on orks in tier 1/2 for sure...orks only just start pulling that back in tier 3 and then can steamroll DE in tier 4 if they make it that far thanks to free sluggas. But most Ork vs DE games should end in tier 2 if the DE knows what he's doing. If you let the ork get to tier 3 you're doing something wrong.

The most annoying part about fighting DE as orks is that nobz are largely useless regardless of the BO DE chooses.

Of all the Ork MU's in Soulstorm, there was only two I really despised - DE and IG, even though Tau and Eldar are both > Ork too.

White_Pointer

[Pigletdude]

Did this arguement all start because I mentioned that sluggas outrange DE warriors?

It seems so

I still don't know how the Big Mek is beaten by the archon, it takes 3-4 hits from the BM to kill the Archon's retinue, plus the Archon has a MUCH weaker melee attack than the big mek.

Archon does 55 Dps to Commander armour.

Big Mek does 65. Not including superior shooting and the Big Meks sync kills.

BM Health- 1310

Archon Health- 1100

Explain how the Archon beats the BM in Tier 1? Even with his weak ass animus Vitae

[MoschBoy]

bodyguard....

[corncobman]

Reinforcing the Archon will mean it'll take longer to kill him off completely.

[MoschBoy]

Reinforcing the Archon will mean it'll take longer to kill him off completely.

its like with the IG CS and the BM..... the BM has great disruption, and unless he triggers 1 of his no disruption attacks and kills off 1 bodyguard fast, his disruption will distribute the dmg on the archon and his bodyguard - resulting in a dead BM.

[PandaMine]

It doesn't matter if shooters outrange warriors, warriors have much higher movespeed as well as better damage for cost/hp and terror nades

[ImmortalChaos]

If you say so.

[Inst]

You know on paper fully-upgraded Shoota Boyz outperform warp spiders. But in reality, you can't pack the fat and short-ranged Shoota Boyz into firing range of warp spiders; it'll end up becoming traditional Chinese kungfu, one shoota boy charges at one enemy at one time and dies one at a time, severely limiting the total damage output of the shoota boy mass. The same thing will happen to Warriors; on large masses, only the first line of units are attacking, the rest of them are having pathing problems trying to get into range.

Not only that, against infantry_heavy_med, on a pure stat-line basis, T2 Warriors are inferior to HB Marines, HB Chaos Marines, Dark Reapers, and whatever T2 ranged specialists you meet.

The only thing that can possibly allow T2 Warriors to be decent would be their Terrorfex Grenades, and unfortunately, Terrorfex Grenades are no Photon Grenades; they're neither abusive insta-gib vs ranged units grenades nor abusive insta-break grenades.

[KotCR]

@ImmortalChaos(/PandaMine)
Honestly. Look at the numbers again. Try it in game with a equal cost of DElf Warriors and Shootas.

In a fight during T1;
DElf Warriors (the unit) > Shootas (the unit).
That is a fact. It's a foolish to say otherwise.

But that's not to say that a HoB build neccessarily > Ork Shoota build. But I doubt it's totally wasted against it either.

I'm not really sure what point other than that that you guys have been trying to make, but...honestly I think White_Pointer's post pretty much covered the way it is. And White knows his Orks...and seems the numbers behind it all seem to agree with him...

[Pigletdude]

@ImmortalChaos(/PandaMine)
Honestly. Look at the numbers again. Try it in game with a equal cost of DElf Warriors and Shootas.

In a fight during T1;
DElf Warriors (the unit) > Shootas (the unit).
That is a fact. It's a foolish to say otherwise.

But that's not to say that a HoB build neccessarily > Ork Shoota build. But I doubt it's totally wasted against it either.

I'm not really sure what point other than that that you guys have been trying to make, but...honestly I think White_Pointer's post pretty much covered the way it is. And White knows his Orks...and seems the numbers behind it all seem to agree with him...

DE Warriors cost 250 Req while Shootas cost 140 Req a pop. The shoota build is much cheaper than the HoB build.

[KotCR]

No, a DE Warrior squad costs 150req. Not 250req.

Seems you forgot to check your numbers. Despite what I just said.

If you bothered to read what others have said in the thread before commenting further (it isn't a long thread), or at least skim it, you'd see I already prooved that DE Warriors are more cost effective than Ork Shootas. As a result, Orks has to even the odds by making use of their other units.

Ork probably does have a slightly stronger early game economy though, due to Ork capping speeds and because Sluggas are cheaper than Mandrakes. Not really a big enough difference for it to be a major element though. Besides, Mandrakes are faster on their feet than Sluggas.

Then again, Orks will also probably have to purchase another builder squad. The Dark Elves can make do with just the one they began with.

[Pigletdude]

No, a DE Warrior squad costs 150req. Not 250req.

Seems you forgot to check your numbers. Despite what I just said.

If you bothered to read the thread before commenting (it isn't a long thread), or at least skim it,

Yes I was wrong , skimmed DoW Wiki to fast; apoligies.

How um did we even start arguing about Shootas and Warriors anyway?

The matter hand seems to be that warriors scale awfully after Tier 1.5 genuinely. Basic heavy weapons rip through DE warriors health too fast and their armour never changes.

The wraithbone upgrade gives like a 125 HP boost to make them marginally more durable than fire warriors. Unfortunetly this makes little difference in Tier 2 when all the anti-infantry weapons are used.

[KotCR]

Dark Eldar is ridiculously overpowered in general, so I'd be weary of buffing anything they have without nerfing other stuff first.

That being said, I can see DElf Warrior scaling being an issue if the rest of the DElf army wasn't so ridiculous.

But perhaps all that would be needed is a change in armour type. Infantry_med is pretty weak and while it's okay for T1, the DElf Warriors are hardly as cheap as Guardsmen and so it's not really good enough for further Tiers.

Having an armour upgrade somewhere in mid-T2 that changes their armour type from infantry_med to infantry_high or something is probably all that would be needed. Ideally, it should be tied into another research, though.

As for the squaddies damage capabilities, they are still pretty lethal for basic weapons even in later Tiers (considering they are not an elite unit). At least as far as T2 is concerned anyway. T3 a couple races get further upgrades to the basic guns of their ranged infantry (Dark Reapers...), but not all races get this so...and their T2 damage output is respectable for a basic weapon.

But the real strength comes from the squad leaders, whose weapon upgrades make him powerful on range against anything (a squad leader with 30-40DPS across the board via a ranged weapon against both infantry and vehicle targets is pretty lethal), so I think it'd never be neccessary to increase the squad's damage output futher at later Tiers.

[Pigletdude]

You need to be very cautious about armour changes, Tau Firewarriors get one to heavy high armour as part of their T 4 choice.

Ork nobs get a heavy high upgrade also on a Tier 4 upgrade, inless the DE warriors got an armour upgrade to only heavy med. it would need to be at Tier 3 at least.

The squad leader is indeed fairly formidable with its heavy weapon upgrade sadly the warriors die too fast after tier 1.

An armour upgrade to infantry high would not be sufficient for the warriors to survive any longer in high tiers.

[KotCR]

Yeah it would, when combined with the extra HP they already get. They'd still be somewhat fragile but that's the point. The aim isn't to make them tough just to make them live a bit longer.

I mean what else would you suggest? Infantry_high is comparable to heavy_med, but seems more suiting to them and has a few elements (like vs. Snipers) that make it seem a bit more fragile at times, and would better fit the unit. There is some units infantry_high takes less damage than heavy_med from though too (vanilla race Commanders being examples).

But infantry_high does in general offer as much as about 33% more protection than infantry_med against some more standard weapons. There is quite a few weapons it offers basically no extra protection against, but that would be my intention anyway. It wouldn't be intended as a magical super-fix to the entire DElf race.

Of course, giving them heavy_high isn't an option. Fire Warriors should teach us how silly that is.

[Derogator]

I think the Relic Wiki is wrong, Dark Eldar's Warrior Squads already have Infantry_High armor. Must have been sneaked in with the patches or something but I checked with Corsix's and it's Infantry_High. Their Sybarite too.

Anyways, I'd say to just raise their range 3 more to the normal 25 and that will be that.

[Jaimas]

Put the wraithbone armor in T1

Make raiders take 2 cap

Done.

Dude's right, make it so.

[mlai]

But the point is that Warriors are not underpowered in tier 1, but clearly are from tier 2 onwards. Therefore what's the point of putting Wraithbone Armor in tier 1? You're overbuffing a hard Warrior rush, finishing the game in tier 1... but they still suck in tier 2.

I would:

1. Make Terrorfex grenades actually do something. Currently it does pathetic morale damage, and blinding doesn't really blind. I would either make it do knockback, and/or make it decrease ranged weapon acc for the squad hit.

2. From tier 2 onwards, they need to have 25 range (not in tier 1).

3. Wraithbone Armor currently only buffs Warrior (+ squad leader) health. I'd like to see it buff Scourge squad health as well.

4. Make Raiders 2 vehicle pop.

5. Some say make Raiders buildable from HoB. How about if Dark Foundry is lowered in cost if you build it in tier 2, as opposed to building it in tier 1? From 200req/65pow/67sec to 150req/40pow/57sec? This cost is debatable; just throwing it out.
It's not as if DF has anything good out of the gate in tier 2: just Hellions (jump melee troops which other armies have in tier 1/1.5), RJBs (which don't do much when coming out in tier 2 without upgrades), and the Raider. The DE "dreadnought" (Talos) still needs a Wych Cult Arena built -- tier 2.5 for a slow 4-pop dreadnought with pathing worse than any other vehicle in the game.