[SS 1.0] DE Warrior discussion

**Akagi_Ryu** · 15th Dec 08 10:08 AM

How about scratching the HP buff from T2 list and in stead give them a research that:
A) improves their silly range
B) either makes them more durable OR makes them faster (It's T2 with the alternative of scourges, they can be even faster and still not broken by then)
C) upgrade their terrorfex to deal more morale dmg or have an aoe

... or pretty much ANYTHING aside from hp buff wich isn't as useful in their case as many other things would be.
Even such a thing as +10 range would work wonders, to hell with increased hp!

**Old Painless** · 15th Dec 08 12:20 PM

Can my NW have +10 range too please ?

Although i feel your pain. They are very hard to use effectively.

**Orgad_E** · 15th Dec 08 12:43 PM

Necron are UP but thats another subject.

pesonally i think warriors should NOT be buffed. they are ment to suck at big battles, being ment for raids.

as for the RJB alternative being better: in T1 sure, but you will eventually HAVE to get the hall of blood for the killing blow. if you go HoB in T1, you dont HAVE to get the foundary so badly. thats alot of resources there.

**dtitov** · 15th Dec 08 5:14 PM

I would agree with earlier suggestion. Making raider buildable from HOB will fix all the problems. (Without changing raider stats otherwise it will be too much)

**White_Pointer** · 15th Dec 08 7:15 PM

Make raiders take 2 cap

Ummm...no.

Just allow 2 squads of warriors to ride around in them. Anything else and you are overbuffing an already useful unit.

White_Pointer

**mlai** · 15th Dec 08 7:41 PM

Just allow 2 squads of warriors to ride around in them. Anything else and you are overbuffing an already useful unit.

That only does something significant if 2 squads of transported warriors = double the damage output. It helps for transporting melee squads, but here we're talking about warriors-raider synergy.

For warriors-raider synergy, they should be buildable from the same building. Otherwise, 2 cap is a lesser but acceptable alternative.

**steel_tomatoes** · 15th Dec 08 9:52 PM

Originally Posted by White_Pointer

Ummm...no.

Are you aware that Immortal posted that like 6 months ago, I'm failing to see why this thread was resurrected from its slumber. The person who posted again didn't seem to have any new ideas?

I haven't seen a lot of evidence in games that DE need a buff in 1.2, although its true that Warriors don't scale. People have just got used to it and start to phase them out as they get to T2. I'm just thinking, could it be an intentional part of DE balance, to discourage players from over massing warriors in T1.

PandaMine · 16th Dec 08 12:13 AM

Id be happy if Warriors were made weaker in T1 and scaled better.

As it stands, they are the worst scaling unit in the game, becoming practically useless T2 and afterwards

**Pigletdude** · 16th Dec 08 5:34 AM

Id be happy if Warriors were made weaker in T1 and scaled better.

As it stands, they are the worst scaling unit in the game, becoming practically useless T2 and afterwards

They struggle to even make an impact in Tier 1, I tested them out against Orks on Insane and the warriors simply cost too much and die too fast against the much cheaper ork sluggas.

Even in Tier 2 with the armour upgrade a full squad with a Leader only comes ot a total of 2700 Health.

Of course perhaps the horrefex grenades should be factored in , they are do work well if two or three are thrown at one target....

**mlai** · 16th Dec 08 6:03 AM

I fail to see how Warriors die at all against ork sluggas.

**Swashbuck** · 16th Dec 08 6:14 AM

raiders should be buildable from the hall of blood. with their already steep cost and fairly long build time it is a complete waste to build a dark foundry for another 200/50 (?) which takes another good minute to build.

**Pigletdude** · 16th Dec 08 7:42 AM

I fail to see how Warriors die at all against ork sluggas.

Use your brain smartass, Sluggas and DE Warriors have equal health of 250, but each warrior costs 20 Req more.

But do you know what is more shocking? Ork slugga's have range of 25, while Warriors have a range of 22!

That means that even when the orks are not engaging the warriors they can still shoot them

.

But regardless because of their short range the warriors have no counter at that stage to mass sluggas, throw in a Big Mek and the DE are doomed.

EDIT: And oh yeah they both have equal accuracy of 60% unupgraded. Just interesting.

I beat the AI but thats because they are incredibly bad.

**mlai** · 16th Dec 08 9:40 AM

Dude I'm not certain you're very good at the ork vs DE mu.
You're suggesting what, that Sluggas outshoot Warriors?
You throw in some numbers but none of them mention comparative range dps.
So what if Warriors cost more? You know how much a WB costs?

**KotCR** · 16th Dec 08 9:48 AM

Dark Eldar Warriors also move at 20, Sluggas move at 16...so you should have no difficultly closing that distance to make up for the 3 difference in range.

I also can not comprehend how Sluggas could possibly ever outshoot Dark Eldar Warriors without Burnas.

(Massing Sluggas against Dark Eldar does actually make sense though, as probably one of the best options you can take to attempt to counter Jetbike spam with Orks while within T1. If you ever see Orks massing Sluggas against Dark Eldar, that's why. Min damage abuse vs. Vehicle_low.)

**Pigletdude** · 16th Dec 08 10:05 AM

No not really, just intersting to note that a slugga pistol outranged a DE warrior splinter rifle, the point i'm try to make if you factor in the Ork's charge bonus and the DE warrior's short range then the warriors will spend nearly all of their time dancing the slower Orks.

No, really I wasn't looking at sluggas beating warriors at range, but for one supposedly being a ranged Dps unit and the other a melee meatshield they have the same range and accuracy.

Just weird.

**Inst** · 16th Dec 08 11:32 AM

What, giving DE Warriors 8+ morale DPS in tier 2.5 is a new change. It doesn't make DE Warriors primary combat units, but it makes them useful without vanilla-izing them.

**corncobman** · 16th Dec 08 11:53 AM

There aren't any modifiers that change weapons' morale damage though.

**Inst** · 16th Dec 08 1:40 PM

There aren't? Check the Ranger; every time you upgrade its weapons damage, its morale damage increase. And no, its accuracy stays constant.

**corncobman** · 16th Dec 08 2:10 PM

That's because the research changes it to a separate weapon.

**terlanis** · 16th Dec 08 2:19 PM

Personally i find that de warriors are just fine in tier 2. Understand in almost all mu's where you go hall of blood, you either tech up to get malidiction and wyches or go scourges and raiders. Point being is, a warrior squads usage changes once tier 2 hits to act as support fire for melee or raider squad drop with scourges. Once tier 3 though, there use is gone being a waste of squad cap to warp beasts and more scourges/wychs. I still use them in tier 2, and they still prove to be effective, just gotta change there role from a harasser to a supporter.

**Maktaka** · 16th Dec 08 2:45 PM

There aren't? Check the Ranger; every time you upgrade its weapons damage, its morale damage increase. And no, its accuracy stays constant.

You may be confused because the Player's Guide presents it in this manner. This is done for efficiency of space although it is technically inaccurate: the weapons are three separate files, incremented one by one through the Optics researches.

**D-coy** · 16th Dec 08 3:28 PM

You could do the same with the warriors' weapons, altough it'd be more work then changing some values.

PandaMine · 16th Dec 08 4:43 PM

If you have problems with Warriors in T1 you have issues playing Orks.

Warrirors rape almost any race in T1 that isnt Eldar or Tau, and even against those races Warriors are effective

**Pigletdude** · 17th Dec 08 6:30 AM

If you have problems with Warriors in T1 you have issues playing Orks.

Warrirors rape almost any race in T1 that isnt Eldar or Tau, and even against those races Warriors are effective

Sorry, what? Where is this evidence from? And um, explain the first part of your statement please.

**ImmortalChaos** · 17th Dec 08 11:03 AM

The first part of his statement is right- Orks should be able to kick the shit out of warriors, really. Shootas should be able to hold them off without losing too much ground with the Big Mek around, they won't be able to harass your base at all, and the moment big shootas arrive the warriors will start dropping like flies.

The second part (which sorta contradicts his first point)? Not so much. DF builds are almost always more powerful...

**Pigletdude** · 19th Dec 08 6:09 AM

Aye big shootas spell death for the warriors, firstly because of the longer range, secondly because it can Fotm regardless of poor accuracy the damage more than makes up for it.

Simply going the hall of blood path isn't gonna work against Orks, have you ever used an Archon against a big Mek?

PandaMine · 19th Dec 08 6:43 AM

Archon and Hameonculus with torture amps screw's over shootas though

**Flagg** · 19th Dec 08 6:50 AM

"Have you ever used an Archon against the Big Mek?"

Are you trying suggest the Archon loses? He's about the most devestating hero in T1. I'd rather face FC or CL over the Archon.

Archon>>BigMek

**ImmortalChaos** · 19th Dec 08 9:47 AM

The archon can't teleport squads about, does much less damage to enemy troops in melee, and simply wishes his peashooter was as awesome as the lottery gun.

The archon will beat the BM 1 on 1 but the mek is BYFAR the more useful hero.

Anyways, archon and haemonculus + torture amps might have a chance vs vanilla shootas+mek... but by that time you'll be dealing with squads full of big shootas, the armor upgrade, and blastier probably not far off. You'll get raped.

PandaMine · 19th Dec 08 5:12 PM

Huh?

Archons maledictus like insta gibs any shooter squad that the big mek is attached too. You can use the animes virtue with the warrior squads to cut off squads when they are the weakest, along with torture amp

Once you get maledictus archon can like insta kill any squad the BM is attached to

**ImmortalChaos** · 19th Dec 08 5:44 PM

Ok, that's a fucking T2.5 ability; add nobs or a trukk to the equation. -> Orks still win.

PandaMine · 19th Dec 08 5:59 PM

And then you can add DE's units as well

Big mek also takes a bloody long time to get out, by the time he comes out you most likely the DE's warriors would have killed all ur capping slugga's, kill ur gretchins and harrasing the shit out of ur base

**ImmortalChaos** · 19th Dec 08 6:27 PM

/me sighs

Your theorycraft is really quite tiresome- if you'd ever want to try a HoB build against a decent ork, come back to me.

PandaMine · 19th Dec 08 6:36 PM

I have, but I didn't save the replay (didn't think I needed to save it).

You just do what DE has to do, and that is harass EARLY. Big Mek has a build time of 60 seconds, and while he is being built you cannot get shooters. Likewise Orks are not going to have as much resources as DE, seeing as they are going to have to get some banners up and going.

Of course if you don't harass the Ork's you will find yourself up to kness with 3 fully kitted out Shoota Squads and a BM you will lose, but thats not how you play DE.

Going HoB would fail on very large maps because harassing takes longer (in which case Dark Foundry is better) but on smaller maps like Blood River its a very different story

**ImmortalChaos** · 19th Dec 08 6:41 PM

I said decent ork- You can get a shoota squad before the big mek y'know.

PandaMine · 19th Dec 08 6:47 PM

Which you could probably use your Drakes to force them to dance (you are going to have 2 out anyways for capping).

Warriors are also a hell of a lot stronger then shoota's, doing double the damage and only costing 10 more req and more HP along with terrorfex nade (out of the box without upgrades, which Ork's are not going to have at the time).

Oh I forgot to mention that, terrorfex nades completely rape shooters. Thats another reason why warriors are effective against Orks

**ImmortalChaos** · 19th Dec 08 6:55 PM

Shootas have legs and ork buildings have gunz.

Terrorfex nades require the squad leader which requires the lab. That's hardly "out of the box." Heck, they don't do much in terms of rape either- the blinding effect does completely nothing, as the moment you shoot the sluggas you'll reveal your own units for 5 seconds and the shootas will be able to return fire anyways. The shoota's morale won't even break without using the soul ability anyways.

Again, you are theory-crafting and embarrassing yourself.

PandaMine · 19th Dec 08 8:19 PM

You do NOT need Scarabyte straight away.

Warriors will out right kill Shoota's out of box, in terms of cost they do double the damage of shootas, have more movespeed and more HP. When the Warriors will come out, they will easily kill all your sluggas without any problems by dancing, and decap your points.

Since almost any decent player summons a lab straight after HoB, by the time you're Warriors get into battle it would already be complete. Warriors build in 20 seconds, lab takes 40 seconds which can be summoned straight after HoB

DE do not have to be in you're base to harrass, they can just decap all you're surrounding points and starve you're eco.

Once you do get you're lab out, you have both soulseeker and the scarabyte, along with haemonculus + terror nades which will break your shooter squads. Likewise tortue amps seriously decrease the DPS's of shootas squads, as well as allowing them to be easily melee'ed by drakes

Also sluggas will not have legs when they are trapped by the archon, who you know, can trap any squads, with his animes virtue.

You are the one that is theory crafting, not me. You still have not commented on the fact that Warriors beat shooters in cost for both HP and damage (by almost double), that Archon can stop shootas from dancing by using his animes virtue and that haemon + nades (which is T 1.5, DE will get there much sooner then orks) does break almost any ork squad, if you also take into account they will be getting shot at

From my experience that is what happens to any race that is not Eldar or Tau, orks are no exception

**KotCR** · 19th Dec 08 10:03 PM

Shoota HP/cost = 6.71 HP per req
Shoota DPS to inf_med/cost = 0.288 per req

DElf Warrior HP/cost = 5 HP per req
DElf Warrior DPS to inf_high/cost = 0.322 per req

A Shoota takes about 25 seconds to kill a DElf Warrior.
A DElf Warrior takes about 14.5 seconds to kill a Shoota.

So the DElf Warrior kills the Shoota a good 40%~ faster.
However, the DElf Warrior only costs about 30% more req.

The DElf Warrior has 3 less firing range, but I'd say that's more than made up for by moving 3 speed faster.

The DElf Warrior squad also has better morale, before Ork mob bonuses kick in (which won't be early game). DElf Warrior morale is actually just as good as SM Tac Morale, more or less. Which is a bit silly if ya ask me, but there ya go...so much for racial traits (it's like DC v1.0 Tau morale all over again).

The only real advantage the Shootas have is that they come out about 10 seconds quicker (the squad actually takes longer to build than the Delf Warrior squad, but the RAX builds quicker).

Oh and also, for what it's worth, it appears the Shootas in this certain comparison are more cost effective in melee than the DElf Warriors...but yeah, they also move slower than the DElf Warriors in this MU, so good luck with that.

Make of that what you will; But while I believe Orks can do fine against HoB DElf Warrior build...it isn't because of Shootas. More because of the Ork Warmachine as a whole (the tankiness of Sluggas, the power of the Big Mek, and building guns).

Shootas are bloody good, but it appears in a straight fight they are outclassed by DElf Warriors, if the figures are anything to go by.

**ImmortalChaos** · 19th Dec 08 10:31 PM

Figures say that fire warriors should lose to almost every T1 squad out there, if that says anything about the figures.

Mathhammer/theorycraft = fail.

Anyways, this has gotten rather off-topic- if we really want to settle this ork vs DE thing we should just play some games. I'd gladly end a few DE players trying HoB builds against my orkies.

**KotCR** · 19th Dec 08 10:35 PM

Nah, as mentioned, the thing with Fire Warriors, is their range and the cheap cost of the Tau infrastructure in general makes a huge difference.

As I've actually said before, I think Fire Warriors are fine (at least in T1, it gets a bit ridiculous later on when their range puts artillery to shame and they are clad in terminator armour). It's the rest of the Tau that makes them fUber.

**ImmortalChaos** · 19th Dec 08 10:37 PM

The hell is with you? I brought up one little example and you start rambling about some other non-related balance stuff.

/rage

**KotCR** · 19th Dec 08 10:39 PM

Three sentences isn't a ramble. Merely pointing out that saying that numbers mean nothing because of Fire Warriors is...random, and not totally justified.

PandaMine · 19th Dec 08 11:05 PM

Dont forget Tau also have snare traps, which makes a huge difference

ImmortalChaos, you probably have more "theory" in you're own posts then I do.

Yes figure don't mean anything, that is if you totally disregard the 3/4 of the race as you did with the example of FW and DE

**ImmortalChaos** · 20th Dec 08 10:03 AM

You're the ones who've been refusing to play any games to prove your bullshit.

PandaMine · 20th Dec 08 5:18 PM

Its currently christmans, Im kinda busy to play a game of DoW to try and prove something

Out of curiosity, do you actually have a replay of a decent DE losing to Ork shooters with HoB path in a map like Blood River?

**ImmortalChaos** · 21st Dec 08 3:28 AM

1) A typical game of DoW lasts under 20 minutes. About a tenth of the time we've spent bickering uselessly here. Trust me, I know; I've been on this same board in this same situation a hundred times before. To be honest it almost feels pointless to ask anyone here to play me, because they'll always have some excuse.

2) Why would anyone save such a typical occurrence?

**D-coy** · 21st Dec 08 3:42 AM

I'd play, but I'm quite newbish.

Regarding terrorfex nades. Do they reduce the targets accuracy? Or just blind? If they only blind, they're kinda useless. Make them do more morale damage or reduce accuracy or disable ranged weapons like Solar Pulse does.

They're great in conjuction with the max morale reducing power, but you can't use that often in a 1v1.

Cheers

**zakublazer** · 21st Dec 08 3:58 AM

Terrofex only blinds, and not really blinds cause they still see you.

The only use i've put them to is running my warrior mass away from a HB wall that dropped out of nowhere.

Maybe if it was an SoB HB wall you could just get your warriors into melee with the terrorfex but otherwise it's no real use to DE warrior.

Whoa IC. argueing 5 am in the morning on a Sunday? isn't it still a bit early?

PandaMine · 21st Dec 08 4:33 AM

Terrorfex nades have the advantage that if a squad is broken, they will stay broken for a good 20 seconds longer then normal

With black heart that isn't uncommon, you can also use it to blind the shooters if you need to retreat

1) A typical game of DoW lasts under 20 minutes. About a tenth of the time we've spent bickering uselessly here. Trust me, I know; I've been on this same board in this same situation a hundred times before. To be honest it almost feels pointless to ask anyone here to play me, because they'll always have some excuse.

Im doing work (Im a programmer) and at the same time I browse forums quickly to take a break. It takes me 20 seconds to make a post, to get a game with you I have to find you, and it will most definitely take longer then 20 minutes

2) Why would anyone save such a typical occurrence?

So why should I provide a replay of DE winning with HoB path against Ork shooters? Up until you provide any evidence of what you are saying, you're posts have as much "theory" as mine (if not more)

[SS 1.0] DE Warrior discussion

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