[2.301]PE panther veterancy

[c0lvet]

I played PE today.

And I noticed that PE 3vet panther has MG and side skirt on it.

I thought those upgrade is available only for wehr panther.

So I tried to find some more information about it through coh-stats.com


So my Conclusion is..

PE panther vetrancy has double effect

1. wehr panther vetrancy effect.
- 2vet panther gets MG42 3vet panther gets side skirts

2. PE vehicle veterancy effect

defensive vet

Received Accuracy 0.9 (0.95)
Maximum Speed 1.15 (1.05)
Maximum Health 1.15

offensive vet

Reload 0.9
Cooldown 0.9
Penetration 1.15


I think Wehr effect should be disabled.. it's too much..

[Panzer Jager]

Dont forget the PE Panther has to earn it's vet.
And earned vet has to be better than payed vet.

[Maniac]

I think Wehr effect should be disabled.. it's too much

I asked you to put more effort into the OP, only this isnt really much to show users where the discussion should go to, "it's too much" isnt really an explanation.
Please add some more thoughts and reasons for your opinion, as asked in the sticky I pointed out to you.

EDIT: Thank you.

[Pyro Paul]

panzer jager just summed it up.

it is balanced because it has to be earned.


the advantages these specific items provide are only really ever an advantage to Wehr because they happen universally. every tank now and forever has the upgrades once researched.

with PE it is just the opposit, you have only 1 tank with an MG and side skirts.

losing that tank means you lose those advantages.

[Texture]

Err. I dunno. Perhaps the ability to get two massively cheap ass panthers late in the game should be counteracted by not giving them the published PE upgrades as well as the upgrades that are really supposed to be Wehr specific.

The extra MG and such makes the Panther much more effective (or effective at all) against infantry. Having two Panthers that just have great health and speed and are only good at killing tanks, for 500 mp each seems more than sufficient to me.

[Panzer Jager]

upgrades that are really supposed to be Wehr specific.

So.

Vet earned Skirts and MG, or purchasable Skirts and MG like the PE P4.

Vet earned means they are counterable by Infantry until they vet up, upgradable means not effectively counterable by Infantry at all.

[c0lvet]

oh Maniac478 Now I got your point. sorry for not editing the Original thread.

Here's my thought.

The reason why the PE panther veterancy should be fixed is..



Other PE vehicles doesn't get more bonus more than PE vehicle effect.

I mean vet2 vet3 Pz4 and vet2 vet3 Marder3 only gets PE vechilcle veterancy effect.

They don't get any free MG or Sideskirt from gaining veterancy.

I don't think PE panthers should be considered as a special one.

Other PE vehicles also needs to earn its own vetrancy like PE panther.

[Leobardis]

Clovet, do I understand you correctly that:

PE panthers, out of the box (without vet), have bonuses/upgrades equivalent to the same level vet of wehr panthers? IN ADDITION to their own veterancy stat changes?

does this mean that PE panthers, with vet are superior in all ways to wehr panthers? (they already are in cost).

Wow, looks like KCH is not the only lackluster wehr unit with the release of OF.

ridiculous. PE should be able to geth their vet upgrades, but not the wehr stats vet bonuses as well, including the mg/side skirts.

[c0lvet]

//Leobardis//
Yes. U understood corrctly.
PE Panthers has own PE vehicle veterancy + Wehr veterancy.

[Pyro Paul]

the PE Panther recieves an Turret MG at vet 2 and Side skirts at Vet 3.

they do not get the 15% damage reduction at vet 1 like wehr vetrency, they only recieve these 2 items and that is all.


it is considered balance, again, because these advantages are only really advantagious in the long run... they provide too little of an advantage the the panthers, and only provide an advantage to very few panthers upfront that are able to achieve Vet3. further more, this Vetrency can be lost forever if the unit is destroyed.


competatively
you rarely see duel panthers play out in normal play after level 7, and even in the rare occations where you do use duel panthers the advantages provided by a Single vet 3 panther is so insuggnificant that it really isn't much of an advantage at all.

[sensesfusion]

Exactly, when do you see the 2 panthers in competitive games?
Someone said it's cheap to get in this thread, lol.
I think they are one of the most expensive ones in the game. Not to mention, some map make it almost impossible to get it, because of the small base.

With all that in mind, HOW OFTEN DO YOU SEE A PE panther with vet? If you think it's OP, why only 1% of my 1 vs 1 game used panther? and I am low level player.

[Demonic Spoon]

because balance in 1v1 = balance in 2v2s, 3v3s, and 4v4s.

AMIRITE?

[c0lvet]

Usually, 1vs1 is infantry fight for the most part.
So Yes. It's hard to see PE panthers in 1vs1 games.
But it cannot justify that PE panther is OP.
CoH is not 1vs1-only-game.

[Pyro Paul]

I'm talking from a 2v2 perspective...
it isn't really an issue in 1v1
it isn't really an issue in 2v2

and 3v3 and 4v4 can not be used in the argument of balance.


and still my points acctually stand for all levels of play. even in 4v4 if you lose panthers with vet 3 they don't come back... which justifies its vetrency.

gainable vetrency is always powerful because it only polerizes itself on a select few units and is frail because it can be lost.

Look at ranger vetrency for instance...
it is the most powerful and advantagious vetrency in the game on one of the most powerful primary combat units in the game.

[c0lvet]

I agree with U that gainable veterancy should be powerful especially for vet3.
But what about other PE vehicles?
Why don't they get any extra MG or side skirt?
Imagine a MarderIII having side skirt.

PE panther should be dealt in the same way.

[Pyro Paul]

Why should a Marder get a machine gun? it is an AT gun... the Panther is a Tank. you can't directly compare vehicals in PE because each of their vehicals are unique and special.


that argument is much like saying the M-10 should get a .50 cal gunner... after all the Sherman and Greyhound have them...

[Demonic Spoon]

There's no reason that PE Panthers should get vet bonuses so out of proportion to the rest of the faction, though.

[Pyro Paul]

considering that the player Needs the rest of the faction to get panthers, i don't think that its unique vetrency gain is out of proportion.


if you want to talk about disproportionate vetrency talk about ranger and airborne vetrency...

[Falaris]

I see both sides here, but I do notice that the PzIV's wehr bonuses are ammo purchaseable upgrades for the PzIV, while they are 'free' with vet for the Panther.

There is a discrepancy. Individual (not considering tech) PE panthers are considerably cheaper. Admittedly tech costs are similar/higher, but still... it does SOUND a bit off.

[Panzer Jager]

Why don't they get any extra MG or side skirt?
Imagine a MarderIII having side skirt.

PE panther should be dealt in the same way.

The PE Panzer IV is upgradable to Skirts and MGs.
No vet needed.

And historically the Marder didn't have skirts.

[FLXleGaulois]

Would you prefer to see armored skirts and MG upgradable on PE panthers for 75 ammo like P4F ?

[Falaris]

Me? Yes I would. But then, I'm a consistency afficionado. Panther and PzIV should act the same - either that or give the PzIV skirts and MG with vet instead of ammo.

[Demonic Spoon]

considering that the player Needs the rest of the faction to get panthers, i don't think that its unique vetrency gain is out of proportion.


if you want to talk about disproportionate vetrency talk about ranger and airborne vetrency...

You know, I'm tired of people saying that teching costs justify imbalance. It doesn't. Teching costs don't justify overpowered units, ESPECIALLY since the actual tech to get the panther callin costs only 100 mp, and that every other tech you need to get it gives you some other bonus...not to mention the fact that if you use teching costs to balance stuff, then it becomes OP in large games and UP in small games.

And ranger/AB get arguably worse vet benefits than rifles.

[FLXleGaulois]

In fact I was asking all the people that are complaining about PE panthers. I think that they would be even more powerfull with buyable upgrades.

not to mention the fact that if you use teching costs to balance stuff, then it becomes OP in large games and UP in small games.

mmmh... isn't it why most people never take care of 3v3 and 4v4 into balance discution ?

[Demonic Spoon]

mmmh... isn't it why most people never take care of 3v3 and 4v4 into balance discution ?

'

Well those people are wrong.

[Pyro Paul]

No, you normally don't consider teching costs when you would naturally get the tech any ways. Wehr phase techs for instance, each phase unlocks items and upgrades... however these phases are gotten simply to progress the teirs and get better units, so the Phase costs are not considered when talking about the cost of the specific upgrades.


However, teching costs can be used in an argument when you have to Over tech to get a specific item. Teir 4 tech costs for Walking Stukas for instance is an example of requiring Over tech in order to get a specific item.


PE Panthers fall into the same catagory as it requires you to Get the Entire Faction before you can research it and call in your panthers. something you wouldn't normally do in a standard game.

[Demonic Spoon]

PE Panthers fall into the same catagory as it requires you to Get the Entire Faction before you can research it and call in your panthers. something you wouldn't normally do in a standard game.

Excuse me? I do it all the time in 2v2s.

[FLXleGaulois]

Last time I built double panthers was against some campy noobs on vire river. After surviving 15 minutes of non stop arty barrage we broke trough behind my 2 panthers and destroyed them and you know what they said ? "PE panthers are so OP". To such sentenses I answere lol, if you fight your ennemy instead of destroying bridges and turtleing he never have the ressources to build double panthers.

[Pyro Paul]

you research every item and option of the PE tech tree?
seriously?

what level are you?

i'll usually only build 2 of the 4 items because in those 2 structures alone will be more than enough to keep my resources Taxed.

[c0lvet]

Well.. I'm pos 12 in 2vs2 ladder as PE
I'm not complaining about PE veterancy coz I was beaten by it.
I love to make PE panthers in 2vs2. Coz it looks cool.
I put it out to get more well-balanced game without any discripancy.

[Demonic Spoon]

you research every item and option of the PE tech tree?
seriously?

what level are you?

i'll usually only build 2 of the 4 items because in those 2 structures alone will be more than enough to keep my resources Taxed.

What do you mean? I play the beta normally, and even in retail 2v2 AT doesn't give levels.

[Manschi1978]

Because the Panthers are the only real tanks the PE have, they are far away from OP. They are fine as they are and removing these two bonuses would make them UP.
Bad idea!!!!

[Pyro Paul]

your rank, your level, your standing against other players in the game. given to you (in all levels of play) when you play ranked matches, is used to set you up against like leveled players

can often identify the skill of a player or his opponents.

that is what i mean by level.