Does anyone know any sucessful counters, besides another fighter or vette rush, to these tactics? I find it so annoying, especially when facing the vaygr, when, just a few minutes into a game, a bunch of S/c take out my MS...
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Does anyone know any sucessful counters, besides another fighter or vette rush, to these tactics? I find it so annoying, especially when facing the vaygr, when, just a few minutes into a game, a bunch of S/c take out my MS...
yeah some people find gunplats useful, however the best way is, as you said, to build a another fighter / vette "rush" but use it defensively .. 3 or 4 or whatever the limit is of mobile refineries can also own fighters
You can use emp and some bad language.
#4
This isnt intended to sound condescending in any way. You may think I'm making some obvious points, but many people don't really pick up on the way the game is played. Attacking with fighters is not always a "rush" - its merely an initial attack.
Homeworld 2 is, by design, a ship "class-climbing" game, for want of a better term. The game will not allow you to jump straight up to frigate/capital class ships without building a figher class defense. If you dont like building fighters or corvs, then anyone who builds a solid fighter/corvette offense will beat you. If you are losing games at early stages to fighters blowing up your mothership, then you arent concentrating enough on the smaller class ships before getting out your bigger ones. Its not done like that to be "annoying" - its done so that people use all of the ship classes.
The fighter/corvette battle is always the first part of a game. Yes, you can build gun platforms to defend against fighters, but they wont cut it on their own. As in Homeworld, where you had to build scouts, in Homeworld2 you must build a fighter strike force as well (exception to the rule is dedicated strats in team games).
Once you resign yourself to this fact and start working on your early defense units a little more, then you might even start enjoying it. Fighter attacks are not really meant to be the be all and end all - but if you dont defend against them, then you will not be able to build the larger class ships and you will get frustrated with the game.
If two groups of fighters & corvettes meet to do battle, does it mean they are rushing? No, it means they are meeting to fight the initial battle. Think of your fighters as like your archers and your corvettes as your footsoldiers, they are intended to soften up the enemy before your catapults arrive. If you just wheel your catapults up to the enemy gates, their archers and footsoldiers will simply cut you down before you even get close.Does anyone know any sucessful counters, besides another fighter or vette rush..
Remember: one players rush is another's standard build. You just need to work on your standard build a little.
Last edited by reki; 29th Oct 03 at 7:59 PM.
AMEN BROTHER!Originally posted by reki
Remember: one players rush is another's standard build. You just need to work on your standard build a little.
And remember: If you lose to Xost, your family will be castrated.
Vette rush? What vette rush? I was under the impression that if you tried to get vettes as quickly as possible in a game against someone who tries to get fighters as quickly as possible, it was essentially the same as dropping the soap in prison...
If theres a valid build order that involves getting vettes first, I'd love to hear it.
Really, I agree with Reki in that strike craft are the base upon which you build your army, and ignoring them naturally leads to defeat. Concerning the people who want to be able to fortify up and then rush to BCs, yeah, they're being somewhat silly IMHO.
However not everyone who disagrees with the whole early fighter template is so extreme. Its just that the idea that mixing it up a little = death is somewhat unpleasant for those of us who are a little tired of dual fighter bay starts- and thats the key right there.
Its not the early attacking with fighters, its not the messing with build orders until you get max efficiency, its the whole 'dual fighter bays or bust' paradigm. Again, if theres some way to go 1 fighter module and 1 vette module without being thrown over a table, raped, flipped over, and raped again, I'd love to hear it.
#7
You dont have to go dual fighter bays - on small maps you can go emp scouts at one and assaults/ints at the other or assaults/ints at one and gun plats at the other.
On anything larger than shield or kharam you dont need two at all.
If ure Hiig, build pulsars and interceptors. if Vaigr, build AC and missile vettes.
hey thats really a good term !!Originally posted by reki
Homeworld 2 is, by design, a ship "class-climbing" game, for want of a better term.
ihave to store that in my mind for using it as an explanation if the next n00b shows up with a BC rush.
anyway.. reki is right
u just CANNOT sit there without building ANY strike/corv classed units.
perhaps it is possible in a 3vs3 on maps like crimson bond (fixed pos) were u got 2 allies defending u, but otherwise i see no option for it.
First of all, no one can build dual fighter facilities and put out a fighter force without the opponent being able to scout out their strategy and prepare defenses, so dual fighter facilities does not count as a real "rush" IMO, I think it's really just an early-game aggression strategy. (If you want to sit around and build stuff without scouting and worrying about being attacked, try Sim City or Zoo Tycoon or something, hehe.)
As for the counter, I'm not the best player but here's what I would try: Start out with a scout, a fighter facility with a few inties, and either a platform or research module. Immediately scout to see what your opponent is doing. If your opponent is going dual-fighter facilities you can decide to either make a second fighter facility, a platform facility, or tech quickly to corvettes. (If it turns out they're *not* going dual, then you've still got a pretty flexible start for whatever you want to build anyway.)
You might be thinking "but if he has dual fighter facilities and I just have one and a research module, I'm already behind in production." But the key things to remember here are (1) bombers cannot defend themselves, (2) in the time the attacker's forces take to cross the map you will have built 1-2 additional units and (3) you can dock and repair. So the defender does NOT need the same number of fighters to repel a fighter attack as the attacker needs to launch one.
Example: your opponant launches 4 bombers and 4 inties as soon as they're built. You only need 4 inties at that moment to defend against them, or 2-3 inties and 1-2 vettes. Target their bombers, do some damage, send the damaged inties back to dock. By the time the attacker force reaches your base you've probably got another intie or two, repaired one or two, and plus a couple of platforms or another vette. You win!
(BTW, if you're thinking "but in the meantime his bombers will be destroying my modules", then your problem is that you're waiting until the attacker gets close to your base to engage. Send your inties as soon as your scout sees the attack being launched. Your forces will meet in the middle of the map, and you'll be dealing out damage while the bombers aren't even in range of anything. (They are called *interceptors* for a reason, heh).)
Hope this helps.
Last edited by deadkenny; 30th Oct 03 at 11:18 AM.
As a dedicated vagyr player I usualy go fight module on my carrier and try to get a vette mod on my ms asap. With the ac's and scouts from my carrier I can usualy delay any early sc attacks and quickly counter with a few missile vettes against his first expansion. Since my early vettes hurt his recource op more than his fighters hurt mine they usualy try to defend even though they know that their ints arent as good against missile vettes as they wish.
No Seploch as ive been preaching for weeks you can get corvettes even if your getting fighterrushed on the smallest of maps . But you gotta be uber quikk getting a the research module and research vette design (3K RU Start on the little map carrier adv sensor can see enemy carrier RU pile) , I ussually start with building 2 harwesters on carrier and a scout 2 harw. and Res.Module on FS . research vette design and build Fightermod on FS (note stoping if i get low on cash ,get the research going). build corv fac on carrier and when its done get 3 missilvettes(get as many fighters as money can afford). then research armor 1 , this is ussually where you get rushed with 6-7 fightersquads , just hang on it wont look bad for so long, just keep getting corvettes and dock the damaged 1s (with armor 1 its easy) Also get AC as long as it doesnt interfere with vetteproduction . when you have 5-6 mvettes consider either getting ultra heavy armor(lvl 2) (espesially if lancefighters is begining to arrive) or get another vette like lasers or command
or other fighters all depending on the enemy responce .
But on this small map it seems 80% likely that you have won as soon as the fighterush has been beaten/pushed back and you counter at either the carrier or MS (1 RU pile is going down either way while he docks or run away).
With lvl 2 armor on Mvette i can tell you this 1 sq. for 1sq. lancers will loose , badly ! (however lancers from my own use seem to grow exponatially with the ammount used so who knows if you get lots like more than 9 sq it could turn diffrent ) I once sent a full force of lancers -2 sq against what seemed like a full force of gun and pulsarvette . It was the most confusing battle ever, lights everywhere took 30-40 sec and 4 lancesquads remained (beaten up) But i didnt find out what armor he had (suspect 1 on corvette and perhaps 2 on pulsar).
So hope you find it helpfull (Since i hate typing out thise long detailed buildorders)
Concerning the lancers, yeah. Since they are beam weapon units, focus firing with them makes them insanely effective, and increasing their numbers tends to have a more direct impact on the tide of battle, whereas focus firing with missile units tends to be less so unless the controller knows exactly how many volleys to fire -a task made a bit more difficult when targetting fast moving fighters.-
I agree that 2v2 corvettes are not to be considered a rush. But when someone comes ate you with max fighters or vettes, can it be called a rush now?
Also, another counter that may work, indirectly, is an attack on his mothership. This works best if you have an ally. Just like a flinch in real life, the player will usually withdraw to defend his MS, giving you enough time to recouperate.
I believe it would help to "balance" my build though. Whenever I play, 9/10 I get owned by S/C or Vettes. Even if I win, my opponent always comes with that part on top.
But the thing is you also got fighters in the swarm and mvettes acts more like the flakfrig weakening the whole group being either lancer or fightercraft.
you realy got to get up to torptech to find a hard counter for this combo or do it yourself.
The only other feaseble thing i can think of is half n half lancers and AC but noone has ever done it to me .
I prefer 12 AC and 6 Lancers to get the job done. THis group will own most things as well as SC ever will, being good against everything to some degree. Back them up with level 2 engines and a couple of command 'vettes and you've got yourself a pimpin' attack force.
guess I am the allround flexible guy.
I prefere 2 scouts +8 ac's and 4 of bombers and lancers each.
For Vettes: 4 missile vettes 2 C3's and 6 lasers
Frigates 9 HMF 6 assault and 6 Inf.
thats my full fleet.(pluss DD's and bc') But most times I wont even need anything bigger then vettes. Probably because i play relative small maps mostly
no because rushes involve attacking early and crippling the enemy when they're lacking defense, maxing vettes and fighters would take too long and uh .. yeah :baloons:Originally posted by gandalf13
I agree that 2v2 corvettes are not to be considered a rush. But when someone comes ate you with max fighters or vettes, can it be called a rush now?
You must not be playin quality opponents. NO ONE sends over a bomber rush. On a small map (most 1v1s), if he goes double fighter mods and u go 1 fighter mod or NO fighter mods, you WILL be fighter rushed. For example, on shield, if u build say 4 INTs from your ms, I will have built 8 in the same time. My 8 will kill your 4 with the loss of maybe 2 squads. Sothat means 6 squads will be hitting your collectors while u scramble to build defenses. Your gonna lose a couple of collectors before i retreat and repair, and those collectors mean you are behind me in RUs. So i have an advanted. So I win.Originally posted by deadkenny
First of all, no one can build dual fighter facilities and put out a fighter force without the opponent being able to scout out their strategy and prepare defenses, so dual fighter facilities does not count as a real "rush" IMO, I think it's really just an early-game aggression strategy. (If you want to sit around and build stuff without scouting and worrying about being attacked, try Sim City or Zoo Tycoon or something, hehe.)
As for the counter, I'm not the best player but here's what I would try: Start out with a scout, a fighter facility with a few inties, and either a platform or research module. Immediately scout to see what your opponent is doing. If your opponent is going dual-fighter facilities you can decide to either make a second fighter facility, a platform facility, or tech quickly to corvettes. (If it turns out they're *not* going dual, then you've still got a pretty flexible start for whatever you want to build anyway.)
You might be thinking "but if he has dual fighter facilities and I just have one and a research module, I'm already behind in production." But the key things to remember here are (1) bombers cannot defend themselves, (2) in the time the attacker's forces take to cross the map you will have built 1-2 additional units and (3) you can dock and repair. So the defender does NOT need the same number of fighters to repel a fighter attack as the attacker needs to launch one.
Example: your opponant launches 4 bombers and 4 inties as soon as they're built. You only need 4 inties at that moment to defend against them, or 2-3 inties and 1-2 vettes. Target their bombers, do some damage, send the damaged inties back to dock. By the time the attacker force reaches your base you've probably got another intie or two, repaired one or two, and plus a couple of platforms or another vette. You win!
(BTW, if you're thinking "but in the meantime his bombers will be destroying my modules", then your problem is that you're waiting until the attacker gets close to your base to engage. Send your inties as soon as your scout sees the attack being launched. Your forces will meet in the middle of the map, and you'll be dealing out damage while the bombers aren't even in range of anything. (They are called *interceptors* for a reason, heh).)
Hope this helps.
I have seen a few people try early game bomber rushes, it's just that they aren't very effective at all. Before you can do any real damage you have to overpower the enemy defenses, and bombers can't do that/ Bombers who just dive through a cloud of ints will get eaten up long before they can do enough damage to be worth their cost. And then the defending ints are free to counterattack.
On the other hand, 4 int squads and 2 bomber squads together do a whole lot of damage to modules, although you have to accept that you will lose the whole strike force eventually - ints will get overpowered then bombers die fast. Your enemy will be badly set back though, particularly a Hiig opponent.
Yeah but to send in an effective bomber force you gotta research advanced bombs, which is just more money that i will be able to spend on a defending INT force.
Very true. I'm not saying it's a great strategy, I'm just throwing out a way in which someone can use bombers early on if they want to. Personally I go mixed AC/Lancers and they're fine until the 'vettes arrive.
#24
Yea, maybe. Unless the other guy goes fighter/research and uses EMP. I did this vs a fellow PSA the other day, in our rematch, and knowing he was going to fighter rush again (I barely won the first as I took a chance and expanded, losing my carrier and workers at the expansion), I kept my few AC and scouts docked until he was upon my mothership. It helps that I complimented him on his early game strength and speed and told him I needed work in this area before the game to boost his confidence before our rematch began (appear weak where strong, strong where weak). I also told him how lucky I must have been to win the first game. Once in range of my mothership's cover fire, I used the two scouts I had by then to lock him down and proceeded to turn the table with my measely 4 AC and mothership guns. Of course, he nearly killed a worker before I launched my ships as I had to let him fire on me with impunity for a few seconds before launching. Talk about counting seconds. The same can be done with missle vettes, but it takes a tad longer and lots of Hiigaran players are going super early torp frigs lately, anyway.
Timeless_OMO
True, I have had some problems with well-implemented EMP strikes before. There's not much you can do - unless you want to ue EMP yourself, then really you can just micromanage, hit the scouts first and hope for the best.
Torp frigs on the other hand have never really bothered me as much as some people seem to indicate they should. I rarely see more than one or two together, and jsut a couple of passes with a 'vette swarm will smack them down without losing a single squadron. I suppose that if the 'vettes aren't massed then they would pose a much bigger threat though.
Damn copying bastardsOriginally posted by Tempest
lots of Hiigaran players are going super early torp frigs lately, anyway.
Timeless_OMO.
Remember that I'm not saying a bomber STRIKE isn't useful, i just find I would rather build INTs which will kill my opponents defending force and then kill his collectors, as opposed to bombers which would kill maybe 1-2 modules and then die to the ints.
I actually love the midgame bomber strike to take out oponents cap ship facility (on larger maps like jadeth). This works best with a distraction causing the opponent to send his defending acs/ints after one threat while sending in the bombers to his now undefended mothership. 3-4 bomber squads will kill the cap ship facility in 1-2 passes. This means you can probably take out a research mod or some collectors before he realizes his mistake and sends his fighters to kill you.
#27
I agree, Drunk. Bombers seem best used when you trail them after your AC or inties and already have the enemy engaged. Even then, it only takes a few of them to wreck havoc.
Also, Chopper, when I say early, I mean before you can get a vette swarm up, while you are still fighting his inties with AC. It only takes a few torps to pop workers like corn and take out a carrier.
Last edited by Timeless; 31st Oct 03 at 9:50 AM.
That's true, although I would note that if you get a meaningful number of torp frigates THAT quickly then you will most likely have skimped on fighter defense, as which point torpedo frigates will be anally violated by lancers while the collectors scurry away out of range for a minute or two. In the balance, the blip in production time probably wasn't worth your while, especially if the lancers intercept the torps even before they get close enough to threaten the resourcers.
Actually drunk and i were just talkin about that chopper.. Im not gunna get into the details.. but lets just say by the 9min mark.. u can have 10 inters and 7 torp frigs.. and trust me those torp frigs will more then make up for the less inters u may have
Also.. lets not forget chopper .. torps fire 2 torpedos.. 2 torp frigs can take out a corvette squad with just 1 salvo... wherass it takes ur missle frigs a hell of a lot longer to take them out :P
Well if you're correct in that you can have 7 torp frigs and 10 interceptors out in 9 minutes then you're probably right they'll own you pretty badly. On the other hand, in 9 minutes a Vaygr can probably have 14 AC and a Destroyer out, so if he sees you going frigates he can rush to capital ships. It's a tricky one.
C the thing is... the time it takes u a vaygr player to c my torps out.. and then respond with a destroyer.. .i would have already destroyed most of ur resourcers hehe :P
Also 7 torp frigs will kill a vaygr dest.Originally posted by Chopper415
Well if you're correct in that you can have 7 torp frigs and 10 interceptors out in 9 minutes then you're probably right they'll own you pretty badly. On the other hand, in 9 minutes a Vaygr can probably have 14 AC and a Destroyer out, so if he sees you going frigates he can rush to capital ships. It's a tricky one.
So what exactly is this super-early torp frig build order
And how much worse are HVM frigs -compared to torpedo frigs- against vettes?
Incidentally, since when are lancers good against torpedo frigates?
Last edited by Sephlock; 31st Oct 03 at 3:11 PM.
Its not a big secret or anything. Fighter/Fighter and then research mod on ms and then frig mod on carrier. As soon as thats done pump torps.
Wait, so do I need to go dual bays or not? Seems like Reki says no, Drunk says yes... my head hurts -_-.
:juggle:
#36
Drunk tends to base most of his strat discussion on shield, which is very difficult to get away without dual fighter bays. On any other map, you can get away with one. Having said that, EMP scouts from one bay and interceptors from the other vs dual interceptors on shield will almost kinda cancel eachother out. It all depends on whether the EMP guy gets a good hit or not.
Yeah sorry, that is true. But I thought that was what we were discussing? Small map rushes ala shield or kharams?Originally posted by reki
Drunk tends to base most of his strat discussion on shield, which is very difficult to get away without dual fighter bays. On any other map, you can get away with one. Having said that, EMP scouts from one bay and interceptors from the other vs dual interceptors on shield will almost kinda cancel eachother out. It all depends on whether the EMP guy gets a good hit or not.
And the only reason to get emp is if you are vaygr. Hiig emp SUCKS.
err yeah .. hig emp sucks O_O
Is that because Vaygr scouts get the universal speed bonuses?
Also, what exactly are the viable options on maps other than shield? 1 fighter facility, 1 corv facility? 1 fighter facility, 1 plat facility? Must you get EMP if you are not going double fighter bays?
You basically are forced to either get fighter/fighter or fighter/plat on shield or face an early fighter rush.Originally posted by Sephlock
Is that because Vaygr scouts get the universal speed bonuses?
Also, what exactly are the viable options on maps other than shield? 1 fighter facility, 1 corv facility? 1 fighter facility, 1 plat facility? Must you get EMP if you are not going double fighter bays?
One note about the frigates - recently, I have built neither frigates nor destroyers begore the end of a game, because I'm finding that there is little that a 'vette swarm won't do, coupled with decent scouting to stop torp frigs in time. Laser 'vettes have proven themselves able to kill carriers, frigates and destroyers faster even than other destroyers can, and add a couple of CC's to the swarm and my fighters prove more than adequate against enemy fighters and 'vettes.
Plus this build keeps you mobile at all times, and is great for resource-op raids. Once both fighters and 'vettes are maxed out and fully upgraded you can start building DD's if you like, but in the last 4 or 5 games I've won before I even finished building the relevant modules (and that is against some notable players in this very forum as well, not newbies).
A quick note about bomber rushing:
I actually send the bombers in regularly when playing Hiig vs. Vay. And while the 1500 for improved bombs may seem a bit steep, it usually pays off nicely.
For example, in my last game (I keep kind of odd hours, so I am currently limited to LAN play) I sent four squads of improved bombers over to the enemy carrier, with a mere two squads of intercepters for escort.
Like most of the Vay players here, my opponent was gearing up for the swarm. Was, anyway...
Hiig bombers are actually wonderful swarmers, as it takes a mere 3 seconds for four squads (improved, of course) to pop a module. Any module. And I have found through experience that it is more or less beyond the realm of possibilty to stop the bombers from getting those 3 seconds.
Of course, the key to using bombers is to take out mods, and only mods. Going for collectors is suicide.
So, you need to find a way to get 3 seconds. If you can, the Vay swarm can be stopped dead in its tracks. After all, the Vay carrier only gets one mod. Shut it down early, and you take out half of the Vay's production capability, which pretty much takes care of any swarming.
Also, because those four squads can be had well before the Vay player gets his hands on vettes, chances are that if you go mod popping that he will never get vettes.
Oh, and yeah, I know that the mods you take out can be replaced. But, the time and cash required to do so usually put an effective swarm out of the reach of a Vay player. Because while he is trying to recover, you should be sending gunships to escort your mod poppers, which in time will simply ignore the mods and start wasting caps.
And to answer the question that kicked off this thread... the best counter to a swarm is a swarm of your own.
Nope. As Hiig your only hope is to survive long enough to get Flak frigates. A good Vaygr swarmer will see your bombers coming a long way away and will hit them wayyy before they can reach mods.
^ yeah exactly especially on shield for example on which one probe is kinda most of the map cleared
and we all know how AC love bombers :square:
I will conclude this thread with one sentence:
Hiigaran use their Strike craft as support vessels in midgame - late game (when they got frigates and caps) or as strike/defense units in early game time.
Vaigr rely on they strike craft as the bulk of their force and use their frigates for support instead.
both of them use SC for scout/hit and run/capital ship destruction purposes.
Personally i kick out 4 scout squads straight away form my carrier...and keep my flagship oin resourcers till i have 12...seems to work OK...however vcould someone tell me if the flagship builds ships any faster (WITHOUT upgrades) then the carriers? cuz if it doesn't i intend to...tweak my strat...
both carrier and flagship build times are identical, with or without uprades (unless you only upgrade flagship, in which case that will be fastest)
Often times when I play is be a general annoyance with Vettes harass with pulsars on their subs while i go for dests and gun vettes
I hyper the dests once the pulsars have died or have taken out 1 sub.
Then once the Dest is in i take out the Resorce collectors and any other extraneous ships around while the gun vettes take out any fighters.
sounds slow but if done correctly its possible to attack as they are filling out a frig squad. This is a 2v2 strat.
when playing 1v1 i just scout emp bomb then gun vette finally filling out with bc if i take out subs or keep them from RU's.
i dunno it works 4 meh
#49
Hmm, my strategy appears to be a reversed version of yours, Thurokiir.
I hyper in the desty first, THEN the pulsars.
And for some reason, some other players I play with seem to hate pulsars. They go after my pulsars the moment I send them in (unless my desty is really giving them Ouches), which sometimes makes for a pretty useful pulsar diversion.
This seems to work for me most of the time. (Unless I'm up against Pherdnut + NemesisChiken + GOLIATHChiken = me and my team getting raped... :P)
I have no strong feelings one way or the other.
Epilogue, Truth Seeker, Divinity - Book 1: Wrath of the Gods , Interstellar Odyssey
Didn't think pulsars were any good against subs. Hmm... maybe I was trying it on a fully upgraded MS.
Certainly wasn't you that got your team stomped on atma. You actually beat me to the first destroyer. Nemesis and GOL are pretty good at countering DD rushes, however, as they've been on the other end of it enough times and they've definitely watched me do it to others.
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