[2.301] Overrepair, more crazy than I thought.

[Moon Pine]

I just noticed the overrepaired vehicle couldn't get critical hit
That means not only the mines couldn't stop it, but also the poor PE AT HT tread breaker useless against it.

Do any buddy noticed this, too?

[Schwarzwald]

Yeah one of the many annoyances of the british faction, i think it's best we discuss it in the balance forum?

treadbreak should really disable it's treads or give it engine damage even if it's ORed.

[kommodore]

I like that feature, its the only way to avoid treadbreaker, no one said its supposed to be unstoppable, e.g. blitz assault you can just retreat, stickies kite, faust object blocking/kiting, most abilites can be avoided in one way or another. If you know its over-repaired just damage it first.

[troglodytejb]

A reduced chance to take a critical-- fine. Complete immunity to criticals is broken, especially against abilities that are designed to have a high critical chance to compensate for low damage-- treadbreaker does NOTHING against an OR tank, and it's 40 muni. ORed tanks can drive over mines with impunity... Any way you look at it, if you're spending muni to get a high critical chance attack, the Brit ability to completely negate it for free is really unfair.

[Worf]

I'm moving this to balance. Please stay on topic and don't rant.

[Texture]

It's hard to cry over this because treadbreaker fails due to it... mostly because treadbreaker is another steaming piece of bullshit that got introduced to the game.

So let us concentrate on mines instead. Sweet, innocent mines, as pure as the freshly fallen snow. So simple, so basic, so integral to the flavor of the game. And an Over Repaired tank can just drive over them without taking any engine damage criticals?

Sickening. Someone should be punished for this. I don't even care if it's the person who was responsible, just punish someone at random. Justice demands it.

But like... aren't they working to un-fuck this up in the Beta? I swear I saw some bits and pieces about that mentioned fixing the whole criticals/OR issue.

[Tenshi]

I like that feature, its the only way to avoid treadbreaker, no one said its supposed to be unstoppable, e.g. blitz assault you can just retreat, stickies kite, faust object blocking/kiting, most abilites can be avoided in one way or another. If you know its over-repaired just damage it first.

'avoid' is where you don't drive the brencarrier into the range of an AT gun. They aren't indestructible and aren't supposed to be able to flounce around the map like theyre the queen of sheba expecting everyone to throw their cloaks ontop of puddles so she can walk over without getting her shoes wet*.

Last time i looked the PE AT HT do shite all damage.

*ye that metaphor got a bit long but i thought id run with it.

[Texture]

I liked it. Worf shouldn't have taunted us with the no ranting edict.

[troglodytejb]

I figured mines would get people interested; treadbreaker is probably not the most balanced tool in the arsenal, but mines? For 25 muni and the chance that it won't do ANYTHING, it should be a high chance of critical!

[Korrigan]

I like that feature, its the only way to avoid treadbreaker, no one said its supposed to be unstoppable, e.g. blitz assault you can just retreat, stickies kite, faust object blocking/kiting, most abilites can be avoided in one way or another. If you know its over-repaired just damage it first.

There are other ways you can avoid the treadbreaker. I suggest not driving in range or not relying on a single tank or destroying the AT HT (or even repairing it quickly).
Thats micro. The thing you need when you retreat with blitz, kite stickies or LoS fausts...

[Unicous]

Last time i looked the PE AT HT do shite all damage.

last time i checked at ht does ok damage especially vs. m8 and shots EVERY 2 secs.

whenever i use treadbreaker i feel painfully ashamed, just like using slow in retail (well and beta again) against retreating targets.
you pay 40 mun brits pay 320 mp plus 75 mun.

[Tseng_Fox]

that 320 mp also can build other things and repair. It dosent just do overrepair.

[Unicous]

yeah? so what? is this some kind of justification? i think not!

[Tseng_Fox]

Point is, AT-HT can only do treadbreaker and focus fire. Treadbreaker is stopped by Overrepair with absolutely no way to stop Overrepair.

In this case the Cromwell for example is free to take out the AT-HT at its leisure as it has piss-poor damage. Unless you have a Pair of Marder IIIs, then it can run uncontested.

Its just too much. It should be percentage based, not a flat-out number. It should not affect criticals too.

It makes the AT-HT pretty useless since all it was ever good for in the late game is Treadbreaker.

[SgtWilson]

...the Brit ability to completely negate it for free is really unfair.

OR costs 320/75 (for the upgraded Sapper) and reduces MP income by 10 per minute while its being performed. It takes ages to reach full OR, and its effect reduces over time.

Before everyone jumps on the "Brit OP BS" bandwagon, I'd just like to point out that OR is the only way Brits can gain defensive improvements for tanks, AT guns, etc. As you all know, Axis gain defensive improvements via veterancy.

[Tenshi]

last time i checked at ht does ok damage especially vs. m8 and shots EVERY 2 secs.

I don't play PE so ive only seen them being used. Treadbreaker is great, but they do hardly any damage to m10s. Havent often seen them against m8s.

I vaguely remember them being like paks but now arent very damaging...apparently there to treadbreak.

Before everyone jumps on the "Brit OP BS" bandwagon, I'd just like to point out that OR is the only way Brits can gain defensive improvements for tanks, AT guns, etc. As you all know, Axis gain defensive improvements via veterancy.

-do they not get something from command tank + veterancy?

-and it seems they are supposed to have limited attacking abilities to balance out their defensive nature. Or is it non-PC to say that now?

Does american veterancy on tanks remove the effect of tread breakers?

[TeaSeeOh]

Before everyone jumps on the "Brit OP BS" bandwagon, I'd just like to point out that OR is the only way Brits can gain defensive improvements for tanks, AT guns, etc. As you all know, Axis gain defensive improvements via veterancy.

British Captain imparts defensive bonuses to emplacements(one of them being the Brit AT gun). British tanks don't really need "defensive bonuses." Why? American tanks don't get anything like that, yet they're more susceptible to Axis AT, if you look at the different modifiers certain weapons get against Shermans.

You have a Cromwell Command Tank for your vehicle vet, it imparts arguably better bonuses than the American ones. Cromwell Command Tanks share vet across the board, American vet does not.

This is not a good reason for overrepair to be how it currently is. Of all the things in CoH that just make me say "that's fucking stupid" aloud, this ability would be one of them.

[shiner980]

Have you seen the awesomness of OR'ed Tetrarch spam guys? Stupid cupcake tanks go from being Light tanks susceptible to being killed rather quickly into one of the fastest medium tank like units ever, and things that you'd do to slow them down (mines, treadbreaker...) Do absolutely nothing and you get swamped to death xD. Oh and lets not forget that the Command tank provides some excellent veterancy benefits for other tanks. Besides, chances are that you'll swim in munitions by the late game that you could easily afford an OR Sapper team.

[SgtWilson]

British Captain imparts defensive bonuses to emplacements(one of them being the Brit AT gun). British tanks don't really need "defensive bonuses." .....

You have a Cromwell Command Tank for your vehicle vet, it imparts arguably better bonuses than the American ones. Cromwell Command Tanks share vet across the board, American vet does not.

This is not a good reason for overrepair to be how it currently is. Of all the things in CoH that just make me say "that's fucking stupid" aloud, this ability would be one of them.

Sure the Captain gives bonues but only in his sector. The CT gives offensive bonuses only. The Captain and CT bonues also have to be earned and they can so easily be taken away. And if Brit tanks don't need defensive bonuses, then why does anyone?

OR is no more stupid than, say, Prop War. Its the way the designers have chosen to ensure Allied armour can stay viable.

And as I've already said, its not as if OR is enabled at the push of a button. You need to build the Sapper squad, upgrade it, spend 30 sec per vehicles to get to full OR health during which the Sapper squad gets a 200% damage increase and Brits lose 5MP/minute in income. During this time, there's probably a battle going on, and there's an additional unit needing micro. Also you have a unit with little combat ability taking up precious popcap.

The Axis system (veternancy) is far easier to manage and in the case of Wehr, its instantaneous, effective and needs no micro.

[Tseng_Fox]

OR would be a lot fairer if it didnt mess with criticals, like Treadbreaker.

The Axis veterancy system is nowhere near as good as OR is.

[TeaSeeOh]

The Captain and CT bonues also have to be earned and they can so easily be taken away.

Just by being near, they impart level 1(0) bonuses. Getting vet just adds extra bonuses.

http://www.coh-stats.com/basics/captainvet.html
http://www.coh-stats.com/basics/commtankvet.html

Its the way the designers have chosen to ensure Allied armour can stay viable.

Most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Like I said, Americans have no such ability as overrepair, and guess what? Cromwells have the same HP as a Sherman, while suffering NONE of the modifiers accompanying it. It also accelerates faster than the Sherman by default, but still gets Flank Speed.

http://wiki.coh-stats.com/index.php?...uk_40_75mm_Gun
The StuG's main gun gets a 1.5 damage modifier against Sherman targets, but only 1.0 against Cromwells. Infact, it has a .8 accuracy against Cromwells, but not Shermans.

http://wiki.coh-stats.com/index.php?...5mm_PaK_40_Gun
The Marder III's main gun gets a 1.25 damage modifier against all American tanks, while getting a 1.5 against Greyhounds, M3 Halftracks, and even Jeeps. Guess who has no such modifiers, but also yet again a .8 accuracy against it? That's right, the Cromwell.

http://wiki.coh-stats.com/index.php?...eck_(Wehrmacht)
http://wiki.coh-stats.com/index.php?...0mm_Pak_38_Gun
Even the Wehrmacht Panzerschreck and Pak 38 has a lower than default accuracy against Cromwells.

Well micro'd Fireflies will hardly ever be in enemy fire due to it's long cat range, and if it is, it isn't going to stick around. Regardless it has more hp than the M10, while having the armour of a Sherman(it isn't a paperweight).

Stuart Light Tanks have as much hp as a Greyhound while having to pay no munitions. Tetrarchs are faster than Jeeps, can penetrate Jagdpanthers at almost 100% with the Littlejohn, and have only 50 less hp than a skirted Greyhound(but it costs less fuel).

Your other points are moot. 5MP a minute is not an argument, as everyone pays the same when repairing. 30 seconds in CoH goes fast, and every builder unit suffers the 200% damage penalty while repairing or building. And finally, veterency has nothing at all to do with overrepair.

What do American players get to keep their armour viable again? And why do Brits have it instead? If OF released without overrepair, no one would have cried out for the need of it. Aside from the Bergetiger, overrepair is one of the most ridiculous, imbalanced, and unrealistic things in CoH.

Relic better take note, because I will find the guy who made overrepair and kill send him an angry letter.

[Unicous]

OR is no more stupid than, say, Prop War.

absolutely because it was actually ithe other way round. allied bombers/fighters would thow thousands of leaflets all around germany informing people about the shit the nazi regime had committed.

Most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Like I said, Americans have no such ability as overrepair, and guess what? Cromwells have the same HP as a Sherman, while suffering NONE of the modifiers accompanying it. It also accelerates faster than the Sherman by default, but still gets Flank Speed.

it has no chance against any wehr tanks up front flanking is needed. being much faster than shermans is simply a historic fact while weighing only 2-6 tons less than a sherman.

Stuart Light Tanks have as much hp as a Greyhound while having to pay no munitions. Tetrarchs are faster than Jeeps, can penetrate Jagdpanthers at almost 100% with the Littlejohn, and have only 50 less hp than a skirted Greyhound(but it costs less fuel).

pls don't compare the m8 and the stuart. they have different purposes. m8 is multipurpose, stuart is anti vehicle. also it is a TANK, that means panzerschrecks do full dmg and have no acc pen and other tanks have no acc pen either. against m8 schrecks do 70% dmg and have crazy acc pen. pls don't compare them. pls.

What do American players get to keep their armour viable again? And why do Brits have it instead? If OF released without overrepair, no one would have cried out for the need of it. Aside from the Bergetiger, overrepair is one of the most ridiculous, imbalanced, and unrealistic things in CoH.

why is the bergetiger unrealistic?

[TeaSeeOh]

it has no chance against any wehr tanks up front flanking is needed. being much faster than shermans is simply a historic fact while weighing only 2-6 tons less than a sherman.

This has nothing to do with overrepair, and with a faster acceleration/similar top speed to a Sherman, the Cromwell doesn't need Flank Speed. I'm able to flank/circle strafe Axis vehicles with Shermans just fine. The Cromwell and unupgunned Sherman share similar same penetration values, anyway.

Historic fact doesn't belong in balance discussions, especially one on overrepair.

And the reason I compared the Greyhound to the Stuart Light Tank, is because they come out at roughly the same time.

And the BergeTiger is unrealistic, because I don't know, it revives wreckages in real time on the battlefield? Complete with the burning corpses brought back to life?

[Unicous]

while having the armour of a Sherman(it isn't a paperweight).

sry i overread that one. of course this is nothing but a lie. all wehr tanks have perfect penetration against the cromwell apart from the ostwind and the 20mm puma gun. not so against the sherman.

The Marder III's main gun gets a 1.25 damage modifier against all American tanks, while getting a 1.5 against Greyhounds, M3 Halftracks, and even Jeeps. Guess who has no such modifiers, but also yet again a .8 accuracy against it? That's right, the Cromwell.

funny how you compare acc and dmg. all light allied vehicles gain .8 moving mod (jeep .6), the cromwell however not. strange isn't it? while having base acc pen against the cromwell however they have no mov acc penalties against it.

pls don't leave viable information out of the picture to prove your point. you could be called a liar and a fake.

Yeah right... please tell that to whole shreck squads getting instant owned by canister shot.

wow, a 75 mun ability kills a unit with 75 mun weapon how unfair.

[Tseng_Fox]

wow, a 75 mun ability kills a unit with 75 mun weapon how unfair.

Reminds me how much allied players complained about Teller Mines.

I tend to find Cromwells survive alot easier than shermans. Should a shreck squad come close, then just hit Flank Speed, theres no way the shreck will hit.

[Unicous]

Reminds me how much allied players complained about Teller Mines.

i can't believe it. the canister is as inconsistent as shit.
teller mines will kill a jeep or m8 or an m10 or a stuart... . the canister shot however is restricted to things like acc cover and range. the teller mine not. so why compare two completely different things?

[SgtWilson]

@TeeSeeOh

What do American players get to keep their armour viable again?

Totally agree that US needs some improvements here. Although note that the 57mm and the Sherman receive substantial improvements in damage and penetration as they gain veterancy. The 57mm is excellent, especially with AP, without vet anyway. They also have good infantry AT and a heavy MBT.

overrepair is one of the most ridiculous, imbalanced, and unrealistic things in CoH.

Ridiculous and unrealistic? Maybe it does stretch the imagination somewhat. But in the CoH context, where men appear out of HTs, etc, it fits entirely.

Imbalanced? OR gives you grace of only two extra hits from a Shreck, Marder, Panther, JP, KT, 88mm, etc, on each tank you apply OR to. Wehr Vet1 gives you 15% additional health (or 15% damage reduction) on each and every tank that is on the field and on every tank you will ever produce – for a one-off payment.

IMO, despite the cost (including additional micro and the time it takes as well as the purchase price) and difficulties in implementing OR, all it does is [barely] maintains balance vs mid-late game Axis armour and, of course, the Shreck menace.

[Tseng_Fox]

i can't believe it. the canister is as inconsistent as shit.
teller mines will kill a jeep or m8 or an m10 or a stuart... . the canister shot however is restricted to things like acc cover and range. the teller mine not. so why compare two completely different things?

Ive had good success with canister shot. Just move close to an enemy squad without AT, hit the Canister Shot button and insta-wipe a squad. No micro needed even, not suprising though while at least you have to think about where to place a teller mine. Reason I'm comparing them is because they both can instantly take out a unit.

IMO, despite the cost (including additional micro and the time it takes as well as the purchase price) and difficulties in implementing OR, all it does is [barely] maintains balance vs mid-late game Axis armour and, of course, the Shreck menace.

Guess you havent seen what it does to Bren Carriers then.

Firefly with OR is a menace too.

[Maniac]

Some posts have been deleted for being completely unrelated to the thread.

Stay on topic please.

EDIT: I just had to delete two more posts after this, this thread is not about the Stuart and cannistershot, the topic is overrepair.

[X18]

back to topic:

Overrepair is ok, but the crit-immune-status not
the problem is propably that to counter a destroyed engine you would have to repair that vehicle to full health since the OR tank is at MORE than full hp the effects (crits) simply vanish
(should be no problem if there is only 1 at halftrack, since he cant damage any tanks and with threadbreaker he loses ~ 1/10 of its hp so if sappers are somewhere near hes back in action in a sec)


the stuart is anti inf with a decent splash and nearly every shot hitting + cannister shot
like said before: teller mines have to be placed while a stuart can be everywhere ...


realism? you want realism? like about 12 shermans to take on a single tiger (if wikipedia is correct), like having to leave a tank behind when he got engine damage? (not just some guys welding it back together)

it is a GAME, cope with it
if you want "real" realism play sudden strike or blitzkrieg ...

[zzSleeper]

I tend to find Cromwells survive alot easier than shermans. Should a shreck squad come close, then just hit Flank Speed, theres no way the shreck will hit.

Flank speeds imparts no modifiers to shrek accuracy, try again.

Cromwells far easier to kill than shermans.

As far as over repair goes. Its ability to negate crits are about as overpowered as treadbreaker is.

Change mines so they always crit, but leave treadbreaker as it is.

[Splitmonkey]

Im shocked at how fast sappers repair nevermind overrepair with those wrenches.

[Unicous]

Im shocked at how fast sappers repair nevermind overrepair with those wrenches.

they (over)repair as fast as two pio/engie squads would. but wait they cost nearly 3 times more than a pio squad and you need to invest 75 mun.

wow, i think at least this is very much balanced.

[TsarofFloyd]

overrepair should not make vehicles immune to criticals...... forget about treadbreaker... mines are an integral part of the game..... its almost like a free minesweeper on a vehicle!

[PeterPeterson1]

No protection for criticals. Percentage wise overrepair. Nothing more to say!

[Shamgi]

Actually, % based would be terrible. It's straight for a reason.

I'm fine with making the thing still be weak to crits while it's OR'd, but changing it to % would be nothing but bad.

[Tod]

Actually, % based would be terrible. It's straight for a reason.

To make it OP on all low-HP vehicles?

%-based would make it less silly on Tets and probably better on Churchs, two things I like very much.

[burninglegionx]

Over-repair is ok, the critical immunity is NOT.

%-wise over-repair may make high-hp units a lil too strong.

how about reduced Over-repair's max hp for light vehicles.

[Shamgi]

Tod: to avoid that, specifically. The specific numbers would have to be rather high to make it worthwhile on light vehicles, and those same numbers would make things like Churchills practically invincible. No, the way it stands is best, especially since it's getting a nerf in the next expansion.

[Dymo]

An easier testable idea would be increase the Decay Rate to 2.5 thus reducing the over all bonus time to the min +100 to +/- 1.25 minutes, down from +/- 3.25 min.

That way the OR based Sappers would have to be kept handier the fighting to keep the OR up and thus more likely to take damage and or

[PeterPeterson1]

not %-Based on a Churchill croc :

900HP, with OR 1200HP, thats +33% OR to +11% OR min (1000HP)

and Tetrarch:

250HP, with OR 550HP, thats +120% OR to +40% OR min (350HP)

Now percentage based with a +35 to +12% modifier:

Churchill croc: 900HP -> 1215HP -> 1008HP

Tetrarch: 250 HP -> 337,5 HP -> 280HP

Both of them still got one free "Get out of the jail/ get no critical hit" bonus, but now the tetrach stays a light tank and isn't converted to a medium tank anymore.

Same for BrenCarrier. OR min is killable with 3 fausts.

[Tod]

The specific numbers would have to be rather high to make it worthwhile on light vehicles, and those same numbers would make things like Churchills practically invincible.

Nope, the numbers don't need to be high, because it should be nerfed hard on light vehicles. Or how do you justify that a ORed Tet has pretty much a higher life expectance than a Sherman?

PeterPeterson already brought up the interesting numbers.

[Shamgi]

Well, first of all, he only used that comparison with the heaviest tank in the game.

My Firefly goes from 850HP to 742 at 30%, my cromwell and command tank goes to 585 instead of 636.

Basically every single one of my tanks short of the Croc(which is perhaps the worst example to use) suffers from this change in numbers, and emplacements get hit even worse(540 on the 17 pounder instead of 700, for example)

Given the fact that a lot of the other british defenses have taken a nerf already, this would simply worsen the survivability of every building and vehicle the british have because of two units, one being doctrine specific, the other still being mostly worthless later on.

No, post patch, neither example will be quite as over powered as they are now, since the 300-100 timer will tick quite a lot faster.

[sgb]

Given the fact that a lot of the other british defenses have taken a nerf already

Nope, try again. Captain bonus and Improved Emplacements bonus were reduced in beta. That's it. Base stats for emplacements are the same as always, except for the mortar pit being slightly less invulnerable to small arms. OR on emplacements is just as nonsense as on light vehicles. It almost doubles the health of most emplacements, which leads to those oh so fun games in 2.301 where even a V1, firestorm AND rocket barrage together may not kill a single RSE emplacement.

There needs to be some % level where OR is good for medium and heavy tanks, but doesn't break light vehicles and emplacements.

[Tod]

Indeed, the needed damage to kill an ORed RSE emplacement was around six V1 rockets...

[Compel]

How about something more out of the box then? For example, making overrepair an actual command that's different from repair, then giving it a munitions cost.

That way, you only save it for the most 'important' units, and having a sapper squad going round overrepairing a bunch of tetrachs will end up you being out of pocket very quickly.

[Shamgi]

sgb: Captain bonuses reduced, the amount of time OR lasts reduced, and most importantly, the RSE Improved Emplacements changed from 20% less damage to .9 penetration modifier, which is beyond huge as far as how quickly they'll die now. They were only so invulnerable because of combining that extra HP with that damage reduction.

[PeterPeterson1]

Not the extremly more HP is the problem. the chance to avoid critical hits, the chance to make ATmines and AT Halftracks out of function and to build a Brencarrier which could take 5 pak hits...

thats bogus

[zzSleeper]

Not the extremly more HP is the problem. the chance to avoid critical hits, the chance to make ATmines and AT Halftracks out of function and to build a Brencarrier which could take 5 pak hits...

thats bogus

AT mines always critted, it does a retarded amount of damage, bypassing over-repair.

AT-HT's magic stun spell is retarded anyways. It needs a redesign, buff its AT ability and nerf the stun spell.

[Panzer Jager]

Just because it's retarded, doesn't mean it shouldn't work.