Russian police shoot dissident in the head.

[boolybooly]

Says the Sydney Morning Herald.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/rus...121073651.html

Police arrested Yevloyev today, taking him off a plane that had just landed in Ingushetia province near Chechnya, said the site's deputy editor, Ruslan Khautiyev.

Police whisked Yevloyev away in a car and later dumped him on the road with a gunshot wound in the head, Khautiyev said. He said Yevloyev died in a hospital shortly afterward.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7591509.stm

This is the kind of thing (remembering Litvinenko) that makes everyone want to take a piece out of Russia. Its no way for Russian police to conduct themselves.

I was happy to support Russian actions in Georgia recently because they were no less unjust than the "coalition of the willing" in which the UK was involved and served the will of a democratic mandate.

But this is an example of what makes people like David Miliband and John McCain choose an anti Russian political stance and this is the kind of incident that can propel them to power. Moreover these are the kind of people you need in power when Russian forces are behaving like mafia thugs.

Question, does the west need to take a strong stand against Russian thuggery, for its own good?

[Synthmon]

A superpower need always stature example. While it is rather hypocritical of us - the West - to judge them of juridiciary malpractice, it may still be worthwhile to look over our relationship with Russia. They have - especially lately - proven that they hold slightly different values to ours.

[Eighty]

Well, I hate to answer a question with a question, but *can* the west actually achieve anything with a strong stance, beyond an even greater alienation of Russia and its allies? We complain, we argue, and nothing happens. Russia is seen as the victor in, for example, the whole Litvinenko story- the west demands the suspect, and Russia refuses-if anything, the UK at least is left looking like a petulant child, simply because there is nothing we can do. We have very little political capital and influence in Russia itself, and in the majority of other spheres of possible influence, such as economic pressure, even less; we have no leverage with which to enforce such a stance, while taking it will only damage relations more so. In an ideal world, I would argue that it would be right to protest against it, but when such a protest serves only to alienate and anger a country we can do very little to, is it really a viable option?

[Radical]

I'm guessing that those police were bribed by some mafia boss. I really doubt that the Russian government would be stupid enough to let this become a public thing.

[Robert Frazer]

True: the Russian government would make sure that there were no witnesses.

[Kirjava]

While it is rather hypocritical of us - the West - to judge them of juridiciary malpractice...

Certainly, but- if this is indeed what happened- we don't go around capping dissidents too often.

That said, as Eighty notes, unless we can actually do something about what we're protesting about, complaints coming out of the West are meaningless. If there's anything we need, it's understanding and cool heads, what with the day-by-day escalations (small but there nonetheless) in tensions with Russia.

[LoCo]

Can we please drop the anti-Russia trash that's been going on lately?

Are you people honestly trying to imply that this kind of thing doesn't happen in other countries?

Are you honestly trying to imply that the whole of Russia is to blame for this?

Russia is not an enemy. Stop trying to make it one.

[Eighty]

LoCo, I hate to say it, but I think a large amount of the enmity *is* due to Russia itself- perhaps not intentionally, but still there all the same; recently (i.e. over the last ten years or so) it seems that Russia has begun throwing its weight around more and more, looking from say, Chechnya, to Ukrainian oil, to South Ossetia. Part of the problem, however, is that Russia was for a long time seen as a 'weak' country, unable to reach the same levels of political and economic power as other equivalent-sized countries. However, now that the RF has started to flourish under competent leadership, everyone automatically assumes it is acting aggressively, when in reality it is merely trying to regain the power it had; of course, this means that those who now possess the power, i.e. the west, begin to feel threatened. In other words, while Russia may not be an enemy, it is at the least becoming a competitor, where before it was not.

[Win_Imperial]

Are you people honestly trying to imply that this kind of thing doesn't happen in other countries?

When you can provide an instance of police executing a government crticizer in the United States, then feel free to comment.

[Kirjava]

Can we please drop the anti-Russia trash that's been going on lately?

Are you people honestly trying to imply that this kind of thing doesn't happen in other countries?

Are you honestly trying to imply that the whole of Russia is to blame for this?

Russia is not an enemy. Stop trying to make it one.

Have a drink, LoCo. Nobody's saying nobody else does this anywhere ever, and that line of argument is particularly specious anyway. And nobody else said that the whole of Russia is to blame. It kinda sounds like you're trying to provoke an argument.

[wayfarer]

When you can provide an instance of police executing a government crticizer in the United States, then feel free to comment.

Very bad example. Sometimes it seems to be enough having a different skin color. Or being on the wrong place on the wrong time from to wake up in Guatanamo.
That's not a broad statement just the way the media likes to display it. Right or wrong who knows?
But it is very simple to make broad statements.

[Question]

When you can provide an instance of police executing a government crticizer in the United States, then feel free to comment.

In b4 conspiracy claims that the CIA would make sure there were no witnesses and the death ruled as accidental.

Then again the US isnt really a good example, see secret prisons.

But i have to admit im kind of surprised they did it so publically. As a public warning maybe. But you know, throwing the dead body(complete with visible gunshot wound to head) out of a car after a plane full of people have seen the police arrest him at an airport? Thats extreme.

[Nurizeko]

I was happy to support Russian actions in Georgia recently because they were no less unjust than the "coalition of the willing" in which the UK was involved and served the will of a democratic mandate.

I don't remember my government condoning ethnic cleansing by inaction and silence while militia's went around killing a people who's government was out of favour with mine, last I checked.

But this is an example of what makes people like David Miliband and John McCain choose an anti Russian political stance and this is the kind of incident that can propel them to power. Moreover these are the kind of people you need in power when Russian forces are behaving like mafia thugs.

Question, does the west need to take a strong stand against Russian thuggery, for its own good?

I am not sure if this is anything more then corrupt cops bribed to do this, but anyway the west needs to stand against Russian (or any) thuggery because its not what we stand for, regardless of ours or their own good.


But I fully agree that its no way for Russian authorities to conduct themselves, but lets be honest here, the fact this stuff happens is no surprise at all, even if Russian authorities were as clean as fresh fallen snow, Russia still harbours criminals and terrorist groups and all sorts of shady characters getting up to no good.

LoCo: Russia will stop being treated like a potential enemy when it starts acting like a friend, from its neighbours to far flung "opponents".

[wayfarer]

Haha than the USA had very much luck in the past. Some of their neighbours might have different views about good behaviour.

[SubZero]

I think it's naive of people to assume that this doesn't occur in certain other western countries. Just that in those circumstances there will be a cleverly arranged story or no traces, leads or witnesses.

[Tiresias]

I think it's naive of people to assume that this doesn't occur in certain other western countries. Just that in those circumstances there will be a cleverly arranged story or no traces, leads or witnesses.

eh what? Conspiracies?

West isn't competant enough to shoot dissidents, instead we shoot brazilian electricians :/

[Cyberbob]

If you don't have anything solid you can't expect people to take you seriously, I'm afraid. That's what I call naive.

[SubZero]

Now that's a good one Cyberbob.

Call them conspiracies or whatever, but things do happen, and whatever your belief is on the situation is, it isn't my place to question. But if there's one thing that i've learnt it's that power leads to money, and money can control anything, even human life.

I don't think it's appropriate to bring up any proof for the dogs of semantic dismemberment of GD to tear apart, but I have no doubt that if someone in a position of power and wealth wants someone taken out of the picture, that it will happen. History has proven this time and time again, quite often in not-so-subtle ways too.

[Win_Imperial]

Very bad example. Sometimes it seems to be enough having a different skin color. Or being on the wrong place on the wrong time from to wake up in Guatanamo.
That's not a broad statement just the way the media likes to display it. Right or wrong who knows?
But it is very simple to make broad statements.

Guantanamo detainees are terrorists, or suspected terrorists. Most of the men in there are responsible for the deaths of American soldiers, and you don't see the US summarily executing them and dumping the bodies on the side of a road. And how is Guantanamo comparable? We're talking about civilians getting a bullet in the head for speaking out against the government.

In b4 conspiracy claims that the CIA would make sure there were no witnesses and the death ruled as accidental.

Then again the US isnt really a good example, see secret prisons.

But i have to admit im kind of surprised they did it so publically. As a public warning maybe. But you know, throwing the dead body(complete with visible gunshot wound to head) out of a car after a plane full of people have seen the police arrest him at an airport? Thats extreme.

Public warning? In that case Russia hasn't changed much. Supposedly "free democracy" executing people for speaking out against the government.

Mabey we should be more like Russia and round up all those people who were protesting outside the DNC, line them up against a wall and give them each a bullet in the head.

[kenty900]

Honestly…. HONESTLY... could you ever trust Putin??? Ex-Big wig from KGB? Those guys knocked off anyone who didn’t agree with them. Don't give me the argument that west does the same, alright im not naive even to think we don’t knock people off. But not like the Russians have done so openly and for un-violent roles in opposition. Just look at the Islam hatred we have seen in the UK, that Sheik Abu Hamza in sighting death to the west etc.. kind of person they should have Russian methods and take the guy out.

Don't get me wrong I find Russia as a military force pretty impressive, so obviously has game developers and film makers. But my problem now is the way in which Russia wishes to have things both ways. Can't expect to join ranks of allied nations the idea of policing the world with 'free choice for all' AND still suppress opinion with using military action without the uniform agreement of other nations. I really didn’t see why Russia just didn’t lobby for a bigger UN force to go in for peace keeping then let politics slog out over time.

[boolybooly]

I suspect Putin is walking a tightrope, with a cabal or "soviet" of old guard ex-KGB on one side and modernisers on the other. The old guard are responsible for things like Litvinenko IMHO and Putin can do little to restrain them because they are part of the intelligence community in Russia and well connected, with each other. Putin is one of them and they put him where he is but at the same time he has enough vision to know that Russia would be destroyed by their open rule because they deal in raw power and dont have a grasp of economic and political subtleties which make a country more prosperous. My guess is they got their paws on the oil industry by throwing a few people in jail and that is why negotiation suddenly ceased and strong arm action became the norm.

Putin is riding this behemoth and trying to get it to go in the right direction without being eaten by it himself. But he has to do bad things to impress the big boys. Point being he needs serious opposition from outside in order to have a reason to restrain the more bullish of his ruling clique.

[wayfarer]

Guantanamo detainees are terrorists, or suspected terrorists. Most of the men in there are responsible for the deaths of American soldiers, and you don't see the US summarily executing them and dumping the bodies on the side of a road. And how is Guantanamo comparable? We're talking about civilians getting a bullet in the head for speaking out against the government...

Excuse me but lol?
Soldiers kill soldiers? It is called war? You catched and transported civilists from the whole world to Guantanamo you know it is not the Four Seasons.
Without any kind of judgment. Perhabs by not approving what they said and how is torturing in any way conform to the Geneva Convention?
Yeah your are right you are not comparable you are more subtle.

[Win_Imperial]

Excuse me but lol?
Soldiers kill soldiers? It is called war? You catched and transported civilists from the whole world to Guantanamo you know it is not the Four Seasons.
Without any kind of judgment. Perhabs by not approving what they said and how is torturing in any way conform to the Geneva Convention?
Yeah your are right you are not comparable you are more subtle.

Insurgents are not soldiers. The Iraqi Military at the state it was when we invade Iraq were the soldiers. They were treated with respect when captured, and now many of then are serving in the ranks of the new Iraqi Army, fighting alongside the US Army.

Insurgents are terrorists. Plain and simple.

[-V-]

Yep, they are. And the cash reward that the US offered for any information leading to the capture of "insurgents" certainly didn't have anything to do with people ratting on other people they didn't like. Get rid of that irritating sum-of-a-hitch AND get $500 from the US government. What's not to like?

I recall a story from either the BBC or the Guarding, where one of the inmates at GITMO was finally granted a hearing, but after 4 months, none of the witnesses he cited could be rounded up to prove his innocence. The news source that reported this story rounded all of 'em up in under a week and got this man out of a dark hole.

[Etherealsilk]

Yep, they are. And the cash reward that the US offered for any information leading to the capture of "insurgents" certainly didn't have anything to do with people ratting on other people they didn't like. Get rid of that irritating sum-of-a-hitch AND get $500 from the US government. What's not to like? I recall a story from either the BBC or the Guarding, where one of the inmates at GITMO was finally granted a hearing, but after 4 months, none of the witnesses he cited could be rounded up to prove his innocence. The news source that reported this story rounded all of 'em up in under a week and got this man out of a dark hole.

And this is similar to Police arresting someone, driving down a road and executing them and then dumping the body? How?

[SquidDNA]

GZ, you're effectively saying "I think it's very naive to assume that a statement completely unsupported by evidence can be dismissed!" and I don't think that moves this forum in a positive direction.

Governments leaving the bodies of dissenters by the roadside is not par for the course in the world.

The entire "well what about Guantanamo" thing fails as well, because if it was just a political prison you'd expect everyone criticizing its existence to end up there as well, and that isn't the situation. There's plenty of dissent in the US right now, hell, one of the biggest opponents to going to Iraq to begin with is currently nominated for a presidential election.

If anyone is claiming that "everyone does this" and does not provide some kind of evidence to support this claim, I'll be very disappointed.

[Radical]

Am I the only person who find that having police shoot political dissidents in broad daylight is a little...too obvious? I mean, say what you will but if I were in Putin's place, I would, at the very least, not make it a public affair.

So whoever did this is either very stupid, modestly clever or just unconcerned with the consequences.

[SubZero]

Squid, the very nature of these issues are that they are kept under-wraps for these very reasons:

- The skeptics will say "Foolish thoughts, get real, it's not the movies"
- There is no evidence, and if there is/was, it will generally disappear or be dismissed
- The nature of these events are that they are underhand and could jeopardise people's position in power if found out immediately, before some event that they are gearing up for, or, darken someones reputation in the public eye/with colleagues.

This sort of argument reminds me of the UFO/Alien arguments - one side say "Show us the Aliens/UFOs and we will believe" the other side say "We can't do that, but we are remaining open minded since logic dictates that it will be the case". And so on.

[Nurizeko]

And this is similar to Police arresting someone, driving down a road and executing them and then dumping the body? How?

I hazard very little, it just seems that when discussion of bad things done by bad people in another part of the world starts, someone inevitably mentions the US in at least the slightest, and the conversation derails into yet again debating what America does and doesn't do which seems to impinge on their personal moral principles.

People, can we for this thread, for once, please *begging* just dig deep and find the wisdom within ourselves to not discuss America for once in a thread about something not connected with America at all.

Please.

Seriously.

----------------------------------------------------------

Booly: Very interesting theory.

I'm thinking its entirely possible the police could have been bribed by any group not directly associated with Russian authorities, ultra nationalist groups acting alone, what have you, or even just some local police tired with "disloyal" types, the kinda opinion and justifications one develops along with the stress of being part of a system your job is to defend but which is met with constant disloyalty by the locals.

While Russia seems to be experience a less tolerant atmosphere to dissident opinion, assassinating a website owner seems a bit petty even for Russia's current attitudes short of soviet purges.

Then again, who knows, not allot is beyond all possibility.


Radical: Thats what made me question whether this was really the hand of Russian authorities, but since the Litvinenko case is still open and it wasn't very subtle, maybe Russia, if it felt so inclined to assassinate a dissident, would be even less worried about keeping it hush hush as they might a foreign soil located snuff.

Squid, the very nature of these issues are that they are kept under-wraps for these very reasons:

- The skeptics will say "Foolish thoughts, get real, it's not the movies"
- There is no evidence, and if there is/was, it will generally disappear or be dismissed
- The nature of these events are that they are underhand and could jeopardise people's position in power if found out immediately, before some event that they are gearing up for, or, darken someones reputation in the public eye/with colleagues.

This sort of argument reminds me of the UFO/Alien arguments - one side say "Show us the Aliens/UFOs and we will believe" the other side say "We can't do that, but we are remaining open minded since logic dictates that it will be the case". And so on.

While its possible to see your reasoning,logic ultimately dictates that proof is paramount, and the burden of proof is on the accuser, not the skeptic.


Aliens could be coming across hundreds of light years just to probe some cows up the poopers, ghost might actually exist, and have the power to use their ethereal non physical forms to somehow make actual sound (even though they have no means to physically effect the physical world) and western governments may be apprehending dissidents and assassinating them without anyone being the wiser (even though governments are slated day in and day out, from political satire to downright hateful rants against the state) but until proof is given the burden is on the one making that claim, and the skeptic cannot be reasonably expected to give the claim any credit.

[Maximus Decimus]

You guys are hilarious.

The entire "well what about Guantanamo" thing fails as well, because if it was just a political prison you'd expect everyone criticizing its existence to end up there as well, and that isn't the situation. There's plenty of dissent in the US right now, hell, one of the biggest opponents to going to Iraq to begin with is currently nominated for a presidential election.

The greater issue being discussed here is that Russia is a large violator of human rights such as free speech. Guantanamo and the Military Commissions Act are quite frankly far greater breaches of human rights than this dubious case which cannot be linked to Government officials. For all we know this guy pissed off some crime lords through his reporting and got what was coming to him.

Amnesty International has quite a few things to say on the fine example of human rights and the United States of America; example to the world (as some would have it).


Amnesty Summary

More than 600 foreign nationals – most arrested during the military conflict in Afghanistan – were detained without charge or trial or access to counsel or family members in the US naval base in Guantánamo Bay, Cuba. The USA refused to recognize them as prisoners of war or allow their status to be determined by a “competent tribunal” as required under the Geneva Conventions. There were concerns about the situation of others taken into US custody outside the USA, some of whom were held in undisclosed locations. Many of the 1,200 foreign nationals detained in the USA during investigations into the 11 September 2001 attacks on the Pentagon and World Trade Center were also deprived of safeguards under international law, as were two US nationals held incommunicado in military custody in the USA as “enemy combatants”. Death sentences continued to be imposed and carried out under state and federal law. There were reports of police brutality, deaths in custody and ill-treatment in prisons and jails.

More information and detail found at the source Here. I also suggest looking into the "
Ill-treatment and excessive use of force by law enforcement officials" subtopic.

EDIT:

In similar to what Nuri was saying, I often find a pattern that each time something like this happens in Russia or another often disliked country in the West, people have a habit of blaming the administration. Should I conclude that President Bush hates those killed while in custody and is therefore conspiring to have said people killed every time we hear such a story?

[Tiresias]

I think they were talking about more than just that one shooting, Amnesty's reports on Russia are hardly empty, and then we just get into WHO HAS MORE VIOLATIONS. What ground zero was allegeing without any evidence was some unspecified coverups of sinister events similar to this shooting.

[SquidDNA]

In addition to what Nurizeko already mentioned, I'll throw in Young Earth Creationism.

My only point is that Guantanamo isn't fundamentally about violations of free speech. I'm not about to sit here and say imprisoning people without trial indefinitely is awesome, it certainly isn't. But they're not political prisoners.

[Synthmon]

Even if we don't go around headshotting people on a daily basis we should still look over our own record before thrashing others. Let he without sin cast the first stone, eh? "Sin" being everything from casual sex to genocide.

All the same, there's no denying that there's some serious shit hitting some serious Moscow fans. They are definitely throwing their political clout around and causing a lot of people damage in a way that the West have since long condoned. The "war of terror" is, as we all know, highly controversial - from the Patriot Act to similar laws and acts in motion in nearly all Western countries by now, it is safe to say that the Western hemisphere has moved into a time of serious insecurity where the threat is no longer on the other side of the Atlantic with an atomic arsenal, but right in our cities with a spiked bomb. That it so happens that the fuckload-of-nukes-across-ocean-thing just about got revived conveniently in time for a crucial US election, well, that's just tough luck.

Still, I shouldn't think it's worth to underestimate the Western political clout. What I think is very important now is to sway China to be our little buddy. As it stands, it's very true that we can only stand here and point to Russia because they are quite simply rather independent of us, while many of our allies are very dependent of them(i.e., Ukraine and other eastern bloc countries). Nevertheless though, Russia has some serious economic projects planned(is the pipeline in the Baltic still on? Anybody got a status check on that thing?), and a few of these could be much disrupted should Europe decide to become just a little bit cooler.

[Robert Frazer]

For all we know this guy pissed off some crime lords through his reporting and got what was coming to him.

[SquidDNA]

Even if we don't go around headshotting people on a daily basis we should still look over our own record before thrashing others. Let he without sin cast the first stone, eh? "Sin" being everything from casual sex to genocide.

[Mr.Popo]

I wouldn't be surprised if people started comparing Gitmo to fucking Auschwitz. This getting absolutely ridiculous, people.

"Russian police murdered a political dissident. This is troubling, considering their increased use of Soviet-era strong arm tactics in the past few months."

"OH YEAH!? WELL AMERICA HAS A POW CAMP."

[rabb14]

Amnesty International has quite a few things to say on the fine example of human rights and the United States of America; example to the world (as some would have it).

*gasp* Amnesty International!?!/!1/!??!1!

Yea, the United States is a horrible, bad, evil place where they grab anyone willy-nilly and throw them in good ol' Guantanamo and violate them and their human rights. For no reason. None. Zip. Nada.

Did I mention George Bush is a blood seeking psycho who wants to see the entire world burn? He is totally exactly like Hitler...or Stalin, can't remember which.

Russia? Pssh Russia is a saint compared to the U.S.! But see the U.S. does super secret stuff that no one will ever know about. Don't ask me how I know that just know I know simply cuz' I'm smart like that. Proof? How can you prove it when they hide it?

In fact, forget obtaining news on other countries because the U.S. is the worst, and anything bad another country does can't compare to the tyrant that is the U.S.

I absolutely adore how this forum morphs everything into a discussion about the U.S.

[konfeta]

It's the brother of Godwin's Law.

[Win_Imperial]

For all we know this guy pissed off some crime lords through his reporting and got what was coming to him.

Yes, because Crime lords just love the police and the government don't they?

[konfeta]

Yes, they do, actually. In Russia, the police is often the other racketeering group; and are fairly easy to bribe.

[Win_Imperial]

Yes, they do, actually. In Russia, the police is often the other racketeering group; and are fairly easy to bribe.

Then I wonder why the Russians didn't claim that was the reason, instead of saying an "incident" happened.

[konfeta]

Are you honestly wondering why a corrupt government agency doesn't go out and say "Yeah, we felt like killing this guy 'cause we were bribed and didn't like his website."

As for the Moscow agency, it's standard procedure to reply to all such incidents... well as incidents. Any number of things could have happened there, ranging from the entire Russian government being guilty as sin to the website owner actually being guilty of what he was accused of.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwa...ids/index.html

Nestor indicated that only 2 or 3 of the 50 individuals who were handcuffed this morning at the 2 houses were actually arrested and charged with a crime, and the crime they were charged with is "conspiracy to commit riot." Nestor, who has practiced law in Minnesota for many years, said that he had never before heard of that statute being used for anything, and that its parameters are so self-evidently vague, designed to allow pre-emeptive arrests of those who are peacefully protesting, that it is almost certainly unconstitutional, though because it had never been invoked (until now), its constitutionality had not been tested.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwa...ids/index.html

Just review what happened yesterday and today. Homes of college-aid protesters were raided by rifle-wielding police forces. Journalists were forcibly detained at gun point. Lawyers on the scene to represent the detainees were handcuffed. Computers, laptops, journals, diaries, and political pamphlets were seized from people's homes. And all of this occurred against U.S. citizens, without a single act of violence having taken place, and nothing more serious than traffic blockage even alleged by authorities to have been planned.

i am finding my country very depressing.

[rabb14]

i am finding my country very depressing.

So leave and go live in Russia. It's better.

[wayfarer]

@Win_Imperial
you have a strange definition about terrorists. After the old American Doctrins they were Freedom fighters, Freedom.
As I said very subtle. Aside from one or the other innocent shit happens.

I just find it highly amusing that someone enjoys to make broad statements dealing with the next big enemy who is of course evil and corrupt to the bones while your backyard slightly smells aswell and your neighbours are already complaining about it for years.

[Bonnet]

Analysis TDS:

Nestor indicated that only 2 or 3 of the 50 individuals who were handcuffed this morning at the 2 houses were actually arrested and charged with a crime, and the crime they were charged with is "conspiracy to commit riot.

So nothing out of the ordinary happened. Obviously you don't know much about law since you found this particularly startling. Generally when police enter an environment that may be hostile in large groups they detain and handcuff all people present to prevent injures to either party. No violation of rights occurred, indeed the police have 72 hours to charge a person with a crime or they may release them. Handcuffing those at the scene (unless it occurred with particular brutality) is standard procedure and not a violation of there rights. They do so for the saftey of everyone, that way when a large crowd starts violently protesting them arresting those 2 or 3 people they don't get shot after attacking police. It is not unusual, and indeed its not wrong because it protects both parties.

Journalists were forcibly detained at gun point. Lawyers on the scene to represent the detainees were handcuffed. Computers, laptops, journals, diaries, and political pamphlets were seized from people's homes.

Once again, nothing unusual. The police have 72 hours to charge those involved. They also undoubtedly had warrents based on reasonable suspicion. If they where wrong so be it, no one is dead, no one is harmed, and maybe a handfull of people where "scared". Sorry not being frightened by the cops isn't a civil right.

Note the key difference between this case and the one in Russia, no one is fucking dead. The situations are completely incomparable. Over here no ones civil rights where violated, in Russia the dude is fucking dead. Do you see the difference, the one between death and inconvenience?

Get past the blindness of conspiracies and hate, realize that because these searches would require warrants they must have been approved by judges appointed by both parties. Than these self same judges proceed to harass protesters from only one party.
Or maybe, maybe the informants the FBI talked about presented reasonable evidence of a threat and the FBI obtained a warrant, proceed to perform a search in which no ones was harmed.

Now compare this to the Russian case in which "Police whisked Yevloyev away in a car and later dumped him on the road with a gunshot wound in the head ... Yevloyev died in a hospital shortly afterward."

Perhaps I find it hard to stomach that you are comparing raids in which no one was harmed, to an incident where an unarmed man was shot in the fucking head and dumped on a road.


Sorry about the language but your complete and utter lack of objectiveness is frankly frightening.



Now can we get off of the subject of America because I have not found a single remotely credible claim that American cops recently dragged a protester into a car and shot him in the head.

[TheWickedGerman]

http://www.amnestyusa.org/us-human-r...00&n1=3&n2=850

You really sgould take a look at this.

If somone gets out the morality club, they should be sure that they are a good example.

Human rights are generally better granted than in china or north korea, or even in russia(Its not that bad there i have friends there, voicing you opnion is not abig issue there, corruption and organized cime is), but everytime we see here threads about russia, mostly americans start to bash about russia with raised pointing finger. So dont wonder when the finger is pointed at you and showing your dead bodys in the backyard.

USA is not the holy grail of human rights, although some americans want to make us believe that.

[Bonnet]

So dont wonder when the finger is pointed at you and showing your dead bodys in the backyard.

See that is the difference, our bodies are metaphorical, Russia's are literal. As in shot in the head on the side of a road summary execution style literal.

No where did I claim the US is a paragon of human rights. I will advance that it is considerably ahead of many nations of the world, but irregardless of our record it does not invalidate our criticism. If Kim Jong-il stood up and decried Russia's behavior his criticism would still be valid. You are parroting an Ad Homniem attack against our arguments. One that I might add is baseless because a good portion of your opposition is not even from America. So instead of immediately proceeding to some logical fallacy from Russia's violations consider Russia's violations and not your irrational issues with the United States.



Now compare your own link with the russian version. The top headline on the US site, 290 people have died from tasers since 2001.

Now consider the russian one on torture and ill treatment

"Conditions are particularly harsh in the pre-trial detention centres owing to chronic overcrowding. Cells are filthy and pest-ridden, with poor lighting and ventilation, and contagious diseases are rife (over 100,000 inmates have tuberculosis)"

. Or

"the current level of destruction suggests that Grozny has been the target of indiscriminate, disproportionate bombardment by the Russian forces.”

Oh and because Amnesty international has the death penalty as a Human Rights issue you should probably stop linking it because it can be considered an activist group (I.E. lacking objectivism).

[Etherealsilk]

Nobody said that the US is perfect and doesn't have its civil rights issues. We have an entire system built upon protecting our civil liberties with a seperation of power to be a check/balance of the power in the system. Does that mean that shit doesn't happen? Nope. But it is monitored and observed and recourse is available. For some reason I dont think Mr Yevloyev is going to get any recourse to fight having his rights infringed upon (by which I mean he's DEAD). Nothing that has happened in America makes what happened to him right, no matter how many protesters get detained/released. Its not the same as breaking into the joint and shooting their asses up. Or say picking up one and driving them down the road a ways and dumping a body. Point being, this thread was about an attrocious act that happened. Stop saying "Yea but the US violates human rights too so that makes what happened not bad or makes it so nobody can voice an oppinion on this." Its silly and not the point of the thread, the point is what happened to this guy.

[wayfarer]

@Bonnet

Come on it gets boring. America used outlawed cluster bombs in the Iraq and we all recall the pictures of man as a dog.

You can just open your mouth when you are any better. Basic law of human etiquette anything else is just hypocritical.
Serious what do you expect just because you are the good ones you can pick the law on a daily base. Does it make you any better?

And why is amnesty International lacking objectivism hey they did not only listed the death penality?
I say every opinion in the world is lacking objectivism including mine and yours.